New to me 440, need help with diagnosis

[funknut]

Hello all,

First off, new to all of this. Learning as I go, but still very novice. Or if there's something below novice, that's me.

I recently bought a '68 Charger w/ a 440. Don't know a whole lot about the motor besides the following:

- Not original block
- Bored .30 over
- Aluminum Stealth heads CNC ported and polished
- Speed Pro pistons
- Comp Cam Xtreme Energy Camshaft .545 lift (p/n 21-228-4)
- Crane gold roller rocker arms

Don't know anything about the crank/rods though.

When starting, it was pretty hard to crank over. Then once running it was making a bunch of clackety-clack racket from pretty much everywhere, as far I could tell.

I had noticed that the steering center link was up against the oil pan. It's a 699 pan which I now know is a C-body pan, so I can only assume it's the wrong fit for the B-body, which may have been what was causing it to interfere? 

I took it to a shop to have them give it a once-over to see if there were any unwelcome surprises. The head mechanic suggested the noise could be the windage tray interfering, and sure enough when we pulled the oil pan, this is what we found:



zoomed in a bit:



Fitting the windage tray to the block by hand, it seems fairly obvious that it wasn't going to clear the rods. It's so far off, I'm not sure how anyone could have put it in there and figured it was going to work. There's a stamping on it that is hard to read, but I'm pretty sure it's "3751238." Googling for it didn't turn up much.

I did a bit of searching for windage trays and at Jeg's I see there are a couple options for mopar big blocks, depending on the length of stroke. Seems possible the one I have is just the wrong part and too shallow? If so, any pointers on the right part for a windage tray and recommendations for a suitable oil pan would be great.

This one looks reasonable to me:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mi.../model/charger

Thanks to everyone that's read this far. My final questions are regarding these last few pics, there's a bit of the block missing on the oil pan mating surface:





I can only guess this is not awesome, but would love some opinions on how bad, and what I might be in for down the road. It seems there's enough mating surface there for a good seal, and no obvious cracks otherwise. There were no metal bits in the pan, so I can only assume that means that this is not a brand new problem.

I'll throw in one more pic of the rotating assembly in case it provides any more info/clues:



Thanks in advance for any help.

Clay

[firefighter3931]

Welcome to the site Clay 

The stock windage tray is designed to clear the 3.75 stroke crank. Based on those pics it would be easy to conclude that you have a stroker crank installed in that 440. 

The displacement is probably a 493 or larger so that's not necessarily a bad thing. Based on the large cam I would summize that this is the case. The XE285 HL Comp cam is pretty large for a std stroke 440 but would be quite streetable in a 500 inch build.

The reproduction street hemi oilpan is an excellent option. It provides increased capacity and excellent ground clearance. Mopar Performance sells a nice extended depth windage tray for stroker cranks.

Have the shop measure the pickup tube diameter and order the correct size for your block. Stock size is 3/8 but some guys will modify the block for the 1/2in hemi tube.

Hemi pan with your choice of pickup tube:  http://www.manciniracing.com/ststheoilpa61.html

Deep windage tray :  http://www.manciniracing.com/mopbrb415str.html



Ron

[funknut]

Thanks Ron!  Appreciate your advice and suggestions on the oil pan.  I'll post up again once I get it put back together.

[BSB67]

It does not make sense to me that only one rod had significant contacted the WT.  Something else is going on, IMO.

Measure the stroke.

[birdsandbees]

Yep, if one hit the tray they all should. Considering the broken block flange and the tray damage in what looks like the same place I would suspect this engine threw a rod in a younger life, trashed the block edges and they reused the windage tray.

[BSB67]

Do you know for sure if the WT was even being contacted?  Check your torque converter bolts.

[Scaregrabber]

I also surmise the engine threw a rod in a previous life and it has since been rebuilt. Now you get to check for witness marks everywhere to find out where the current noise is coming from. It can't be a stroker or that WT would be beatup in 8  places.

Sheldon

[funknut]

Thanks everyone for the guidance and pointers.  I snugged the WT back on and the rotating assembly doesn't contact it.  I made an error when I measured the WT the other night which led me to believe it was interfering.  Sorry for the red herring!

Damage to the tray lines up with the #6 rod.  Here's a closeup:



If you zoom in and look really close it looks like the rod bolt nut has some wear on the corner.  Nothing hugely noticeable, but I didn't see anything similar on any of the other nuts.  Is it possible #6 came apart and was just slapped back together?  Or would that cause a much bigger mess?

I'll check the torque converter bolts next.

Thanks again!

[firefighter3931]

Looking at the pics it definitely appears that there was a thrown rod a some point. I see several witness marks on the windage tray (small dings) adjacent to the other rod bolts. Those look like aftermarket rods as well and the aftermarket stuff is more compact than the factory rods so it's possible that there is a stroker crank installed. 

In the past I tried test fitting a stock windage tray on a 4.25 stroke build using the 2.2 chevy rod journal and it was very close to fitting. Nothing I would have used but it just barely made contact. The MP stroker windage tray linked above had loads of clearance. 

Definitely check the stroke to be sure. 


Ron

[flyinlow]

The picture with the oil pickup in it:

You can see a little of the side of one of the connecting rods. It is smooth like it has been polished or aftermarket ?
The lower engine to trans bolt on the passenger side appears to be backed out. It was mentioned earlier to check the converter bolts and the trans to engine bolts for looseness. ( If you backed this out ,disregard)

[funknut]

The picture with the oil pickup in it:

You can see a little of the side of one of the connecting rods. It is smooth like it has been polished or aftermarket ?
The lower engine to trans bolt on the passenger side appears to be backed out. It was mentioned earlier to check the converter bolts and the trans to engine bolts for looseness. ( If you backed this out ,disregard)

Good eye!  I will be back with the car tomorrow (Thursday) and will get some more pics of the rods, check the rod and crank bearings, torque converter bolts and install a new set of trans-engine bolts.  I did back that one bolt out a bit, but it is a cause of concern.   It was "tight," however there is something funny about it, just a bit longer than 2" (but not quite 2.25") so couldn't tell if it was properly snug or bottomed out in the bellhousing. 

I've been replacing a lot of 'non-standard,' garbage-quality bolts and nuts on this car.  Plenty of missing lock washers, too, so seems unlikely that much of anything was properly torqued.  Hopefully getting the right hardware on there and tightening everything up will solve some of the rattles.

[funknut]

Pulled the #6 rod end off and took a couple pics.  Everything looks good to me and the mechanic helping me out said it looked 'barely broke in.'  Took off the main caps and same deal.  Pic of #6 bearing and journal below:





Checked TC bolts and everything was snug there.

Checked the crank and it's a 3.75" stroke, so will order up a standard windage tray and get everything back together.

[funknut]

Good eye!  I will be back with the car tomorrow (Thursday) and will get some more pics of the rods, check the rod and crank bearings, torque converter bolts and install a new set of trans-engine bolts.  I did back that one bolt out a bit, but it is a cause of concern.   It was "tight," however there is something funny about it, just a bit longer than 2" (but not quite 2.25") so couldn't tell if it was properly snug or bottomed out in the bellhousing. 

I've been replacing a lot of 'non-standard,' garbage-quality bolts and nuts on this car.  Plenty of missing lock washers, too, so seems unlikely that much of anything was properly torqued.  Hopefully getting the right hardware on there and tightening everything up will solve some of the rattles.

Update on this.  I must've been tired when I took that bolt out and didn't immediately notice it was fine thread (old bolt on left, new on right):



Luckily not too much damage.  I was able to tap the bellhousing pretty easily and the new bolt bites good.

[Challenger340]

From your pictures, specifically the Bearing contact, you may wish to check the Vertical Bearing Clearance with plastigauge while you are in there. (make sure the plastigauge is soft and "fresh" as it has a shelf life.)

It looks to be a FM 2320CP Bearing, which IMHO, only should not be exhibiting a wear pattern that close up to the parting line, unless very close to .001" Vertical clearance.

Bob @ rmp

[funknut]

From your pictures, specifically the Bearing contact, you may wish to check the Vertical Bearing Clearance with plastigauge while you are in there. (make sure the plastigauge is soft and "fresh" as it has a shelf life.)

It looks to be a FM 2320CP Bearing, which IMHO, only should not be exhibiting a wear pattern that close up to the parting line, unless very close to .001" Vertical clearance.

Bob @ rmp

Thanks for taking a look!  Never would have noticed that myself, so I appreciate everyone that's pitched in.  I'll grab some the next time I head over there.

[firefighter3931]

Checked the crank and it's a 3.75" stroke, so will order up a standard windage tray and get everything back together.

Sounds good !  What is the rest of the drivetrain like ; converter stall speed ? Rear end gearing ? Tire diameter ?

The XE285HL cam is quite healthy for a street type 440 build. It'll want 3500 stall and 3.91-4.10 gears  


Ron

[funknut]

Sounds good !  What is the rest of the drivetrain like ; converter stall speed ? Rear end gearing ? Tire diameter ?

The XE285HL cam is quite healthy for a street type 440 build. It'll want 3500 stall and 3.91-4.10 gears  


Ron

Drivetrain is a 727 w/ 4.10 gears on a spool.  28" tire (275/60R15) and the PO said it was a 3500 stall converter.

I have the rear end open and was planning to replace w/ a LSD to give it some more street manners.  I scored a like-new 3.55 gearset for cheap (Motive brand) and was planning to go with those to get the RPMs down a bit.  Eventually I'll be doing a 5spd (maybe t56 if I can swing it) swap, so this would just be a temporary-ish solution.

Thanks for the interest!

[gtx6970]

Where in the cincinnatti area.?
I am in northern Ky

Currently restoring a EE1 blue 1968 Charger RT for a client . At the moment its at the body mans place for final body work/ prep and paint.
I should have it back in the next few months for final assembly . With no issues it'll be back on the road by summer

I dont get on the boards much anymore .
but my email is in my profile if you like

[funknut]

Thanks Bill!

I've been able to address some of my most pressing issues so far and have the Charger almost completely back together.  Once I get it out on the road in the spring I'm sure I'll find a few more things.  I'll definitely keep you in mind.

Clay

[firefighter3931]

Sounds good !  What is the rest of the drivetrain like ; converter stall speed ? Rear end gearing ? Tire diameter ?

The XE285HL cam is quite healthy for a street type 440 build. It'll want 3500 stall and 3.91-4.10 gears  


Ron

Drivetrain is a 727 w/ 4.10 gears on a spool.  28" tire (275/60R15) and the PO said it was a 3500 stall converter.

I have the rear end open and was planning to replace w/ a LSD to give it some more street manners.  I scored a like-new 3.55 gearset for cheap (Motive brand) and was planning to go with those to get the RPMs down a bit.  Eventually I'll be doing a 5spd (maybe t56 if I can swing it) swap, so this would just be a temporary-ish solution.

Thanks for the interest!

Nice....I like the (3500) stall with that cam profile 

Should be a lot of fun ! 


Ron

[c00nhunterjoe]

Should be a fun car. I had a similar build in my belvedere, 30 over 440, eddy heads, xe295hl, 2" hookers, 3" pipes, 11" converter (3500 flash) turbo action vb, with 391s and a 29.5 tire. Just blipping the throttle smoked the tires on command.

https://youtu.be/NGq-2DoL8RY

[funknut]

Should be a fun car. I had a similar build in my belvedere, 30 over 440, eddy heads, xe295hl, 2" hookers, 3" pipes, 11" converter (3500 flash) turbo action vb, with 391s and a 29.5 tire. Just blipping the throttle smoked the tires on command.

https://youtu.be/NGq-2DoL8RY

I had a look through that one and a couple of your other videos and it looks like a blast!

[funknut]

Nice....I like the (3500) stall with that cam profile 

Should be a lot of fun ! 


Ron

Thanks Ron, looking forward to it!  Bottom end is back together and she's now back on all 4 wheels.  Still sorting out some top end issues, but more on that later.

[funknut]

Bottom end of the motor is back together. 

No pics of this, but I found a bent tie-rod end and some deformation to the LCA on the driver's side.  Looks like a previous owner had a good ol' Dukes of Hazzard moment.  Replaced the rod end and was able to get it into decent alignment, but a new LCA is in my future.

Back under its own power and the rattle noise was definitely reduced, but still louder that it should be.

Pulled the head covers and found a few things.  First pic is a shot of the pass. side rockers.  At first glance, looked like the adjustment studs were backed out quite a bit:



Removed them and found (this is driver's side, but both sides are the same) damage to the rocker.  In the 2nd pic I have one of the intake pushrods removed, and you can see some witness marks about 1.5" from the top of the pushrod where it was rubbing against the head.  Similar witness marks on all the intake pushrods, none on exhaust pushrods.  Heads are 440Source.





Pushrod cups had been chewing on the rockers.  Also, with the pushrod cups snug against the rocker stud/ball they contact so high up it seems the oiling hole would be squirting onto the pushrod shaft and not into the cup.

So, seems certain the pushrods are too long.  None of them seem bent, at least not enough for me to detect by rolling on a flat surface, so I guess that's good.  I gave Crane a call and explained what I have and they pointed me to these:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-64641-16

A few questions for you guys:

1) I'm guessing just cleaning up the burrs on the rockers with a file/stone is sufficient.

2) Any pointers on how best to clearance the heads for the pushrods?  In some of the reading I've done it seems it's not unusual to need to do some kind of grinding.  Is this something a patient amateur can do (me) or something best left to experts?

Thanks!

Clay

[BSB67]

Options include:
1) 5/16" push rod
2) shim the rocker over a little
3) grind the head intake runner.

[funknut]

Options include:
1) 5/16" push rod
2) shim the rocker over a little
3) grind the head intake runner.

Thanks!  Ended up going with 3/8" pushrods and took my time grinding the spots that were rubbing.  Plugged the holes best I could with a rag and taped over it to keep any shavings out.  Went really slow at first but got the hang of it after the first couple.  It really didn't take much grinding to get enough clearance.

All buttoned up and everything sounds better.  Still noisier than I think it should be, but definitely an improvement. 

Have a small oil leak from the back of the pan, so will remove/replace and check the gasket, but then should be all set.  Thanks to everyone for the guidance.