Changing valve springs, looking for opinions/advice

[funknut]

Hello -

I have a new-to-me 440 and I've been chasing some top end clatter.  I've sorted through a few issues but still have a fair bit of noise in the valvetrain.  The cam is a Comp XE285HL w/ 0.545" lift with 440Source Stealth heads.  Rockers are Crane 1.5 gold rollers.  I believe the heads have the stock 440Source springs which are supposedly only good for up to 0.510".  I read where 440Source changed their guidance on their springs at some point in the past, I think the previous owner bought the heads back when 440Source claimed their springs were good until 0.600" lift.

I'm looking to upgrade the springs and have found that 440Source also sells/recommends the Comp 924 dual springs as an upgrade.  From the Comp site if I look at the XE285HL cam, they recommend either the 924 springs or their 26120 'beehive' springs. 

924: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-924-16

26120: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-26120-16

Trick Flow also has some beehive springs that seem to have almost identical specs to the Comp 26120 for about $60 less:  http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-16120-16/

I've read the Finkbeiner book chapter on valvesprings and see that the beehives are lighter and can be helpful at higher RPM (in truth mine won't see much above 5000-5500), but I'm looking for opinions on/experience with any of these.

Thanks in advance.

[c00nhunterjoe]

I have personally never been a fan of beehive springs, but definatly go with what is reccomended on the cam card as far as spring rate. As far as your top end clatter im betting its lifters. What brand lifters are in the engine? Check the sticky topic regarding johnson lifters.

[funknut]

Thanks Joe!

The lifters, cam and springs are the only things untouched at this point, so you could very well be right about the lifters.  Sadly I don't know what lifters are in there as they were put in by the previous owner.

I'll give the Topline guys a call tomorrow, may well be worth swapping in some good lifters just to continue eliminating the unknowns.

Clay

[firefighter3931]

The XEHL cams are very noisy....it's a product of the aggressive lobe design. Every XEHL cam I've listened to at idle has had some valvetrain clatter. 

The other thing to consider is the max rpm with a hyd lifter is ~ 5800 rpm or so. Beyond that the lifters begin to collapse and the valvetrain becomes unstable. The more aggressive the profile, the quicker they collapse. With a really mild lobe and a cheater hyd lifter set at zero lash you can coax a few more rpm but that's pretty much a race thing for class racers that have to run hyd cam profiles.

Before spending any money on new springs have the ones on your Stealth's checked out. I'm pretty sure they spec out the same as an Eddy RPM. I ran a .580 lift aggressive solid cam with the stock RPM springs and it worked fine to 6500 rpm....no valvetrain instability. 


The 440 source springs will not go into coilbind unless .600 valvelift is attained. Their disclaimer relates primarily to spring rate and most .600 lift cams require a dual spring so they're covering their ass. The onus is allways on the builder to match the proper parts and assemble according to specs. 

That being said, I know of several guys running that 285HL cam with the stock E-Head valvesprings and no issues whatsoever.



Ron

[funknut]

Thanks Ron!

I appreciate the insight and experience.  It's tough being new to this to try and figure out what's 'normal' and what's excessive noise.  I tried to get a video, but recording with my iphone in the garage...results were junk. 

I'll try to get a better recording of it and see if that won't provide any clues.  It does seem consistently noisy from both sides. I can't narrow it down to a particular location.

Good tip on having my springs checked.  I'll give that a shot as well.

Clay

[firefighter3931]

Hi Clay,

I went to the 440 Source website an found the Stealth Valvespring 

http://store.440source.com/Stealth-Cylinder-Head-Valve-Spring-Single-Spring/productinfo/200-1057/


Looking at the seat & open pressures I see no problem using these with that cam. The 130 closed & 330 open is fine. These are the same as the std Edelbrock RPM spring....it's most likely sourced from the same supplier. 


What oil are you using ? Is it a synthetic by chance ? 

Years ago a buddy swapped in some full synthetic lube and the valvetrain became very noisy....immediately on startup.  There was no question that the oil was the culprit. He immediately went back to a semi synthetic and the noise diminished significantly. 

I'm a big fan of the Brad Penn 20/50 semi synthetic lube. Best oil out there for flat tappet cam protection with lots of zinc/phos 



Ron

[funknut]

Hi Clay,

I went to the 440 Source website an found the Stealth Valvespring 

http://store.440source.com/Stealth-Cylinder-Head-Valve-Spring-Single-Spring/productinfo/200-1057/


Looking at the seat & open pressures I see no problem using these with that cam. The 130 closed & 330 open is fine. These are the same as the std Edelbrock RPM spring....it's most likely sourced from the same supplier. 


What oil are you using ? Is it a synthetic by chance ? 

Years ago a buddy swapped in some full synthetic lube and the valvetrain became very noisy....immediately on startup.  There was no question that the oil was the culprit. He immediately went back to a semi synthetic and the noise diminished significantly. 

I'm a big fan of the Brad Penn 20/50 semi synthetic lube. Best oil out there for flat tappet cam protection with lots of zinc/phos 



Ron

Wow, you guys rock!

Thanks for the detective work!  It really helps a noob like me to sort through these problems.

I am running AMSOIL Z-ROD 10w30 synthetic (I think all AMSOIL products are synthetics):

https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil/gasoline/z-rod-10w-30-synthetic-motor-oil/

It's a high-ZDDP blend (I think something like 1400 ppm zinc and 1250 ppm phos). 

The idea of increased valvetrain noise with a lower-viscosity oil may actually answer some other questions I've had.  When the previous owner sent me video of the car running, it sounded considerably quieter than it ever did since I've had it.  When I went to pick it up it was noisy, much more noise than I heard in the video.  At the time I just figured the recording he sent me didn't pick up all the top end noise...  He said he had just changed the oil (and he had... overfilled it by quite a bit too  ).  Could it be that he changed to a lower viscosity and that's the noise I've been chasing ever since?   

This is a great theory, and a bonus that all I have to do is change the oil to test it out! 

I really appreciate you sticking with my puzzle!  I need all the help I can get! 

Clay

[heyoldguy]

I've spoken directly with 440 Source about their Stealth supplied valve springs. As told to me, the reason they recommend no more than about .500" lift isn't because the springs, as installed, don't have enough tension for .600" lift. It is because the spring's tension fades rather quickly and won't have sufficient tension for the larger lifts in the long term. Use your best judgement.

[funknut]

I've spoken directly with 440 Source about their Stealth supplied valve springs. As told to me, the reason they recommend no more than about .500" lift isn't because the springs, as installed, don't have enough tension for .600" lift. It is because the spring's tension fades rather quickly and won't have sufficient tension for the larger lifts in the long term. Use your best judgement.

That's great to know, thanks!   Always good to hear it from the (440) source.  As I understand, the heads and springs are pretty fresh.  If the heavier oil doesn't bring the noise down, I plan on getting the springs checked and will go from there.

Clay

[c00nhunterjoe]

My opinion is get the synthetic oil out. I prefer semi blend (brad penn here too) in any flat tappet application. Full syn on rollers. Just works better in my experience.

[fy469rtse]

Good check is to test and measure spring lift to the cam card
Seated pressure versus open ,possibly the springs are the ones that came in heads
These are only a mild spring rate
As Ron said that's a pretty aggressive lob lift on that cam
While you have it apart check you have all the right gear also, banana grove thick wall shafts, correct billiet shaft hold downs,
Are those rockers bushed or rollered to shafts, I've found that full roller rockers , this means to shafts can be noticeable noisier
Aluminium heads and rocker covers tend to amplify engine noise,
Measure what lift you have with heads on , you can change the springs without taking heads off, it can be done on car
Geoff

[funknut]

Thanks everyone.  Just a quick update.  I was able to get the oil swapped out.  I went with Lucas Hot Rod/Classic 20w50.  It's a full conventional oil, but has the high zinc (2100 PPM) and it's what I could get locally quickly at PepBoys.

Oil pressure is up but not too high.  I was seeing about 60 psi at 3-4k RPM and 45 psi at idle.  The top end noise has improved significantly.  It's not quiet by any means, but it sounds MUCH better.  The noise used to be constant, like a really loud buzz, or really more like someone was shaking the silverware drawer.  Now it still has some ticking, but much less pervasive.  It's hard to describe.  I tried getting a video of it, but the water pump recently developed a howl.  Once I get that sorted I'll get a decent recording and update the thread.

I appreciate everyone's input on the valvetrain.  Lots of great info here.  Valve springs are still on my list of things to investigate since from the feedback you guys have provided, they may not hold up to the aggressive cam long-term.

Thanks again.

Clay

[firefighter3931]

Thanks for the update Clay 

Not surprised the valvetrain noise settled down.....that's what I was expecting to hear 

Oil pressure is fine....that's what I run mine at (45 psi hot idle) 



Ron