long tube headers question

[richard parker]

so im in the process of building a 440 for my 68 dodge charger i want to put long tube headers a friend of mine who has a roadrunner is saying that it could be a problem because the steering goes in between the headers i really dont understand what hes talking about. can someone clarify this for me?

[BLK 68 R/T]

Unless your friend is referring to something out of the ordinary for headers like fender well exit or something like that, he's incorrect. The steering column does not go between the headers. What does go through the header area is the shift linkage if you have a column shift car. Sometimes that will need to be modified and sometimes not.

[BSB67]

I'm not a header guy, But I don't think most BB Mopar headers trap the drag link/tie rod, like on some cars/engine combos.

[richard parker]

I'm not a header guy, But I don't think most BB Mopar headers trap the drag link/tie rod, like on some cars/engine combos.

If you don't mind me asking why are you not a header guy?  Do you not currently have them or you don't want them?  If you dont want them can I ask why?  I'm just curious

[Dino]

The steering link may pass through them on some models, I can't remember now.  I removed my headers as well, there's no point having them on a street car.  They leave little room to work in the bay, they get stinking hot, and I hate the sound they make under the hood.  Sound out the back is nice though.  The HP manifolds are smaller, easier to work around, and sound great with prety much equal performance when you're not pushing the car.  Not the mention you can install and remove them without having to lift the engine.  If you're installing headers and have HP manifolds are ya selling them?  Or at least the passener side?   

[c00nhunterjoe]

I'm not a header guy, But I don't think most BB Mopar headers trap the drag link/tie rod, like on some cars/engine combos.

If you don't mind me asking why are you not a header guy?  Do you not currently have them or you don't want them?  If you dont want them can I ask why?  I'm just curious

When you open his hood, it looks essentially stock. He has factory manifolds with a custom grind cam and a few other specialty items on his build tailoring it to run how he wants. The end result is a relatively tame, very streetable engi e on 3.23s and a stock converter through stock manifolds that will wipe the floor of most big blocks at 120 mph in the 1/4

[richard parker]

The steering link may pass through them on some models, I can't remember now.  I removed my headers as well, there's no point having them on a street car.  They leave little room to work in the bay, they get stinking hot, and I hate the sound they make under the hood.  Sound out the back is nice though.  The HP manifolds are smaller, easier to work around, and sound great with prety much equal performance when you're not pushing the car.  Not the mention you can install and remove them without having to lift the engine.  If you're installing headers and have HP manifolds are ya selling them?  Or at least the passener side?   

If I do end up getting headers I will sell them.  But I have no idea how much they are worth lol

[birdsandbees]

No offense, but don't sell them. One day you'll outgrown this desire and want to return the car to factory condition. I lost my desire for headers some 35 years ago when my headmans heated up so much one night (while running the cops) that the expansion of everything dropped out a pipe section uncorking one cylinder. Thankfully it didn't slow me down, but the stock exhaust went back on within days and is still there.

Headers will = no improvement on a street car over the factory HP Manifolds.

[Dino]

Value depends on casting numbers and condition.  I see people asking crazy money on ebay but they don't seem to sell.  3-350 for a set is pretty common I think although I paid $40 for my '70 driver side manifold.  

I have to agree with birds though, keep 'em.

[richard parker]

Value depends on casting numbers and condition.  I see people asking crazy money on ebay but they don't seem to sell.  3-350 for a set is pretty common I think although I paid $40 for my '70 driver side manifold.  

I have to agree with birds though, keep 'em.

You guys have successfully changed my mind Im not going to run the headers I have long tube tti ones on my Cuda and they do cram up the engine Bay and hang kinda low.  I always thought they did more for performance.  I'll stick with the stock exhaust manifolds this time.  One more question what does hp  stand for?

[Dino]

High Performance.  They are a higher flowing manifold compared to thhe stock logs.  Make sure you have actual HPs.

Nothing wrong with headers when the engine calls for it,  I just don't like them all that much on street cars.

[richard parker]

High Performance.  They are a higher flowing manifold compared to thhe stock logs.  Make sure you have actual HPs.

Nothing wrong with headers when the engine calls for it,  I just don't like them all that much on street cars.

how can i tell if they are high performance ones or not ? and if not then should i opt for the headers ?

[birdsandbees]

HP's

[myk]

Gonna have to disagree with ya fellas; the Doug Thorley's  and the 3" exhaust with Magnaflo's on my 440 WOKE THE CAR UP.  The stock manifolds were choking the hell out of this anemic, stock type motor.  Nowadays,  I actually have upper RPM range response unlike before where the car fell flat on its face a lot quicker...

OP run headers if you want to.  The performance and the sound is there and why else do you drive a Charger?  Yeah working on the car may prove to be painful, but if you buy quality headers like mine or the TTi's then that pain is minimized.  On my car plug access and wire routing actually improved.  As for the starter?  Well ill cross that road when I get to it...

[BSB67]

I'm not a header guy, But I don't think most BB Mopar headers trap the drag link/tie rod, like on some cars/engine combos.

If you don't mind me asking why are you not a header guy?  Do you not currently have them or you don't want them?  If you dont want them can I ask why?  I'm just curious

Just a personal choice.   Building a motor as I did is not logical if max performance is the goal.  Although my motor makes real good power without headers, I am leaving power on the table.  

Nobody here can tell you if headers are the right choice for you.  They are always performance advantage over performance manifolds.  As your performance goal increase, they become more important, or will make the goal easier to attain.  

My goal was to have my car very docile, somewhat stock like in its appearance and idle and driving characteristics, and to run 11 second quarter mile.  I did not want the hassle (or cost) of headers.

If you want a little more performance and you have no intention of pulling the motor or heads, but want to do something, headers might be the logical next step for you.

[BLK 68 R/T]

Wow....I feel stupid about the response I posted above  for some reason the rest of the steering never even crossed my mine when I read it, I went straight to the steering column shaft for some reason  OP - listen to everyone else on this one and ignore my post 

[BSB67]

Gonna have to disagree with ya fellas; the Doug Thorley's  and the 3" exhaust with Magnaflo's on my 440 WOKE THE CAR UP.  The stock manifolds were choking the hell out of this anemic, stock type motor.  Nowadays,  I actually have upper RPM range response unlike before where the car fell flat on its face a lot quicker...

Your experience is your experience and I won't dispute this.  But I will say that it is far more likely that your perceived performance difference was more to do with the old exhaust system and not the manifolds.

There are a lot of people that have a similar experience as you describe.  Some actually have track data too, and shows 0.50 second improvement in et.  There is no convincing them that it was anything other than just the headers.

Here is my experience that suggests otherwise.  Three tests.  Here is what is different in these tests that should make you at least question why there is a performance difference.  In these three tests (two with manifolds, and one with headers) only the mufflers and head and tail pipes were changed.  In the manifold tests the manifolds were not changed.  The balance of the exhaust system was changed with like-in-kind (i.e. not upgraded). Both cars picked up about 0.30 sec in et and 2 or 3 mph.  This is huge. The throttle response was noticeable crisper.  The header car change was similar, and it picked up 0.20 sec and 2 mph.

Changing an old worn out exhaust system with a new, better, header system is not even close to a comparison between headers and manifolds.  The only way to make the comparison is putting on a brand new system with manifolds, go to the track, race the car and collect weather data.  Then come home, change only the manifolds to headers, and back to the track.  Then standardize the data to standard conditions, and then compute the hp difference.  Nobody does this.  

Two more notes:
1) On my stockish 440, one muffler failed internally.  Driving the car seem okay but lazy on top.  It was almost a 0.5 sec hit on et..  Probably would have never figured it out without the track data.  It actually happened a second time, but I knew what to look for.
2) Myself and others are spinning 500 inch motors over 6500 rpm on stock manifolds.  Hard to imagine that they would be choking a stock 440.

Headers will always increase performance over manifolds.  Just need to be clear on what to expect and why.  There are a lot of variables, including cam timing.....but that is another discussion.

[richard parker]

Can you tell if these are the HP manifolds?

[richard parker]

Another pic

[Dino]

Yep   

[richard parker]

thanks for all the responses i love this place so many knowledgeable people.

[richard parker]

what do you guys think sand blast them and paint them or just blast them and leave them the way they are ?

[Dino]

Blast (or dip) and paint.  Eastwood has a paint just for this purpose.

[myk]

Gonna have to disagree with ya fellas; the Doug Thorley's  and the 3" exhaust with Magnaflo's on my 440 WOKE THE CAR UP.  The stock manifolds were choking the hell out of this anemic, stock type motor.  Nowadays,  I actually have upper RPM range response unlike before where the car fell flat on its face a lot quicker...

Your experience is your experience and I won't dispute this.  But I will say that it is far more likely that your perceived performance difference was more to do with the old exhaust system and not the manifolds.

And I wish I could've done the testing you described; I'd be much more enthusiastic about irrefutable numbers than a feeling, but it wasn't possible. Any mod should have a baseline to compare with, but it is what it is.  Ultimately I think you said it best: headers or manifolds is a personal choice, and one I took years to decide on...

[Kern Dog]

I always laugh in disbelief at the ignorant people that still think that headers do not add any power.