Real bolt on improvements, is there a thread somewhere?

[Lord Warlock]

Over the decades of owning the 440, and keeping it mostly stock all these years, I've often wondered if the gains of bolt on parts advertised are anywhere near accurate when tested on a dyno?  Is there threads here that indicate what a stock non rebuilt 440 magnum dynos at, then what real performance gains you would get from Intake, carb, headers, or ignition system.  I don't see adding headers since I don't race the car and the original manifolds and exhaust pipes are still on the car, I could see adding an intake, I already invested in a firecore distributor so won't worry about that anymore...once I get it running again.  I've also updated the stock 625cfm carter AVS for a performer 750...because the old carb didn't work anymore, and the carter was a drop on and run replacement.  Figure I can always switch to a holley or demon carb later if the performer doesn't work out. 

I don't have any plans to race the charger, it is only planned for cruising, with occasional romps on the gas to relive old memories.  I don't need the upgrades, and may or may not do them, I am just curious if there was a validation of bolt ons done here somewhere.

[Kern Dog]

Have you ever looked at a Mopar Performance Chassis book? They had many books related to engines, chassis, etc. Many had clearly explained formulas to run in the 14 second, 13.5, 13, 12.5, etc range just by following their list.
Some of their info is outdated in terms of intake manifolds, but the rest makes sense. They list cam, compression, converter, cylinder headwork, intake, carburetor and exhaust specifications needed to achieve the 1/4 mile times listed.
Andy Finkbiener wrote several books catering to Mopar performance too. One in particular is about B body performance. CHECK it out.
America, Heck yeah!

[myk]

The Mopar Performance catalogs from back in the day had specific mods to run in various quarter mile ides as well...

[HPP]

There is a thread in here about a low budget big block build up doing basic mods and bolt on parts to a low compression smog motor. I tried a quick search for it but couldn't find it. perhaps some one else could locate it and post a link.

[Lord Warlock]

Never know if I can believe an ad seen in a magazine on hp improvements.  One I saw last was for aluminum heads claiming it would turn a car with a specific cam profile to push 600hp, found it hard to believe a set of heads would make that big a difference, but it probably depends on the cam and heads, and intake/fuel as well.  It is disconcerting to see the newer hemi motors putting out so much power compared to the old 440's of yesteryear, makes me want to transplant the new hemi in the engine bay of the charger...but could I really take out a real 69 non rebuilt magnum motor and put a 345 cubic inch engine in its place?  probably not.  If I went to that extreme i'd have to splurge for the biggest hemi that would fit.  Or find a hellcat motor instead.

[b5blue]

Hey search for a copy of the out of print Mopar P4876825 BIG BLOCK "B/RB" ENGINES manual. (Big block bible) 1 1/2 inch thick and full of Ma Mopar info with exact details. 

[garner7555]

Check out this thread on a low compression smog motor.   Very interesting!!   

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,104749.0.html

[Mike DC]

Never know if I can believe an ad seen in a magazine on hp improvements.  One I saw last was for aluminum heads claiming it would turn a car with a specific cam profile to push 600hp, found it hard to believe a set of heads would make that big a difference, but it probably depends on the cam and heads, and intake/fuel as well.  It is disconcerting to see the newer hemi motors putting out so much power compared to the old 440's of yesteryear, makes me want to transplant the new hemi in the engine bay of the charger...but could I really take out a real 69 non rebuilt magnum motor and put a 345 cubic inch engine in its place?  probably not.  If I went to that extreme i'd have to splurge for the biggest hemi that would fit.  Or find a hellcat motor instead.

The new motors have good top end figures but their output below 3500 RPM reveals their displacement.  50 years later size still matters.  The new Hemis are great small blocks but they aren't big blocks.


The new Hemis are 100 lbs overweight too.  Where is our alloy block?  It's 2016, not 1996.  Mopar's vehicles have plenty of other annoying compromises just to save fractions of a pound.  

[heyoldguy]

Check out this thread on a low compression smog motor.   Very interesting!!   

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,104749.0.html

Add to this some results you might be able to get with a 440 using the old 6-pack style pistons, you know, a little more compression. Both of these are the same engine but from different threads...............

http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/showthread.php?64775-Pop-s-440-is-near-ready-to-dyno&highlight=pop%27s+440

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=261378

[heyoldguy]

Check out this thread on a low compression smog motor.   Very interesting!!   

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,104749.0.html

Add to this some results you might be able to get with a 440 using the old 6-pack style pistons, you know, a little more compression. Both of these are the same engine but from different threads...............

http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/showthread.php?64775-Pop-s-440-is-near-ready-to-dyno&highlight=pop%27s+440

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=261378

Oh yeah, forgot it was already on the site.........

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,107398.0.html

[c00nhunterjoe]

Never know if I can believe an ad seen in a magazine on hp improvements.  One I saw last was for aluminum heads claiming it would turn a car with a specific cam profile to push 600hp, found it hard to believe a set of heads would make that big a difference, but it probably depends on the cam and heads, and intake/fuel as well.  It is disconcerting to see the newer hemi motors putting out so much power compared to the old 440's of yesteryear, makes me want to transplant the new hemi in the engine bay of the charger...but could I really take out a real 69 non rebuilt magnum motor and put a 345 cubic inch engine in its place?  probably not.  If I went to that extreme i'd have to splurge for the biggest hemi that would fit.  Or find a hellcat motor instead.

The new motors have good top end figures but their output below 3500 RPM reveals their displacement.  50 years later size still matters.  The new Hemis are great small blocks but they aren't big blocks.


The new Hemis are 100 lbs overweight too.  Where is our alloy block?  It's 2016, not 1996.  Mopar's vehicles have plenty of other annoying compromises just to save fractions of a pound.  

Cams ground on 116 and 118 centers are not meant for low end torque. They are made to meet emmissions standards. By lowering cylinder pressure/ temp, you drop n0x. To compensate for emissions drawbacks, we now have 8 speed transmissions.... drop a more performance oriented cam into the 5.7 hemi and it gets pretty incredible. Hell, my bone stock 2007 5.7 charger engine had more then enough low end torque to cut 2.0 60' times on stock street tires. And 07 still had the 5 speed, which 1-4 is the same gear pattern as the 833 4 speed. The 2.0 time came on a 1000 rpm launch. Any more would burn the tires off. Slicks yields an easy 1.8 60' on the 4500 lb lx platforms. Not too shabby for torque in my opinion.

[Mike DC]

Cams ground on 116 and 118 centers are not meant for low end torque. They are made to meet emmissions standards. By lowering cylinder pressure/ temp, you drop n0x. To compensate for emissions drawbacks, we now have 8 speed transmissions.... drop a more performance oriented cam into the 5.7 hemi and it gets pretty incredible. Hell, my bone stock 2007 5.7 charger engine had more then enough low end torque to cut 2.0 60' times on stock street tires. And 07 still had the 5 speed, which 1-4 is the same gear pattern as the 833 4 speed. The 2.0 time came on a 1000 rpm launch. Any more would burn the tires off. Slicks yields an easy 1.8 60' on the 4500 lb lx platforms. Not too shabby for torque in my opinion.
Posted on: Today at 10:53:35 AM Posted by: heyoldguy

You're right, those are some damn good launch figures for a 5.7 Hemi.

Modern engines are getting increasingly hamstrung by emissions issues.  The car industry is trying to keep all the power above cruising RPM for mileage reasons too.  


I was having this conversation with a modern-car-guy friend of mine recently.  We were talking about how the most efficient (power and MPG) gasoline engines (OEM) have probably already been done.  Moving forward the OEMs are having to foul up the efficiency of the overall item for emissions regs.  Hence, Volkswagen can get better power & mileage by dodging the federal rules.  

And stuff like the VW thing is only working at the software level.  The emission factor has not dramatically affected the raw mechanical designs of our engines yet.  (Better efficiency & emissions went hand-in-hand in the past.  More effective cylinder head designs, etc.  But now the needs of those two things are diverging.)

It's probably a matter of time before the "hard parts" of engine designs are really getting goofed up for emissions alone.  That is gonna be much harder for guys like us to tune out.  It may also result in backlash against the car-modding hobby, which could be serious trouble.  The Fed and the OEMs would just LOVE to have a reason to legally ban souping-up cars . . .  

[BSB67]

Todays modern muscle make incredible low end power.  Not sue what car you are talking about  

The large LSA, i.e.  reduced overlap, is not about cylinder pressure, but HC escaping during overlap.  The CR and cylinder pressure are being limited for NOx control, but the manufacturers are not controlling that with LSA/ICL.

40 years ago, then 30 years ago, then 20 years ago, the hobby was doomed, crap gas, thought to be impossible emission standards, and gas mileage standard's.  Everyone said the hobby was dead, more than once, and never coming back.  But today, with way more restrictions than ever, cars are making more power than ever.  10 second factory manufactured street cars that are quiet, idle nice, have A/C, and every imaginable gadget.  No one imagined this.  I think it is a little presumptuous to think that today is the pinnacle.  Even if it slips backwards for some time period, it will still be way better than in the 60s and 70s.

Sure you can bolt on a bunch of go fast parts, and add converter, gear, tire to make a little power and be a little quicker with your low compression motor with crap heads, but will you actually want to drive it then?  And then, with all that stuff, everyone will wonder why you only are make 400 hp, instead of 600 hp, and running 13.0s instead of 11.0s

So to the OP, I agree with you, I think.  You can throw all the HP stuff you want a low compression crap head motor, and you are only polishing a turd.  And that is okay, just as long as you know it.

An honest 550 hp in a nice driving/well mannered BB Mopar is very very easy.  It just costs money.

[Mike DC]

Todays modern muscle make incredible low end power.  Not sue what car you are talking about

Some of my later comments were about modern engines in general, not specifically 300+ inch V8s.  

The modern V8s make great low-end torque for their size.  But people tend to think in terms of horsepower more than torque.  Modern V8s are such over-achievers in the HP department that they are taking the place of past motors 50-100 inches larger.  In that comparison the newer motors look weak on low-end torque.

[BSB67]

Todays modern muscle make incredible low end power.  Not sue what car you are talking about

The modern V8s make great low-end torque for their size.  

Agreed.

[b5blue]

  Hey....to try and get back on track for LW he's got a 69 440 correct? Not low comp. engine, 906 heads, HP manifolds?, good ignition, decent factory intake W new carb.
 Just test/tune for optimum operation and call it done. Plenty of torque and power for having fun!    Gains for $$/time spent will be minimal in my opinion. (All this talk about other engines have nothing to do with his situation and question.)  

[firefighter3931]

 Hey....to try and get back on track for LW he's got a 69 440 correct? Not low comp. engine, 905 heads, HP manifolds?, good ignition, decent factory intake W new carb.
 Just test/tune for optimum operation and call it done. Plenty of torque and power for having fun!    Gains for $$/time spent will be minimal in my opinion. (All this talk about other engines have nothing to do with his situation and question.)  

Well said Neal 

A stock 440 will make close to 500 ftlbs of torque so optimizing the tune is where it's at. Torque is what you want in a heavy street car to have some fun a burn a little rubber. 

Get the timing dialed in and sort out the fuel delivery then go have a good time 



Ron

[BSB67]

 Hey....to try and get back on track for LW he's got a 69 440 correct? Not low comp. engine, 905 heads, HP manifolds?, good ignition, decent factory intake W new carb.
  (All this talk about other engines have nothing to do with his situation and question.)  

I don't think this conversation really went that far off track, just a bit.  The OP asked about bolt on stuff, bolt on stuff dyno, is it worth it, and new late model motors.

A factory original 440 today in most cases will be in worse performance condition than a low comp rebuild.  An original factory 906 today is nearly worthless because it takes an incredible amount of money to get them back to where they need to be.   People cannot sell them for $50.  The factory original 440 hp made maybe 330 hp if it was a good one.  If it has 100,000 miles on it, probably 270, maybe less.

There seems to be some delusion as to what theses motors were, and what they are today.

[Lord Warlock]

It is extremely unlikely that I will modify my engine at all at this stage of the game,  I was wondering what modifications like a set of aluminum heads would make on a stock 440 magnum motor,  and was using my stock bore/stroke 440 magnum dated in 1969.  I can only attest that my motor has not been rebuilt before and still retains the higher compression that It should have from a stock  build.  The motor in mine has approximately 69k original miles on it. 

When I was younger, we didn't bolt headers on unless someone ported the heads first, otherwise it was a waste of effort as you weren't taking advantage of the flow just by bolting headers on like lots of chebbie owners used to do.  Porting the heads was more than the average backyard mechanic did on their cars, racers yes, normal drivers no.  Mine still has the HP exhaust manifolds and stock exhaust pipes all the way to the stock tips. 

Most of what I read about growing up was to spice up the 440 for power, usually involved a hotter cam, maybe roller rockers, an aluminum intake, either single or dual plane depending on what rpm you planned on running, and a larger carburetor.  I have the stock intake, and only deviation is the carb which is a performer 750.  If I was going to modify the engine, I would probably have a set of aluminum heads set up and installed, with a set of tube headers to match the ports on the heads, and then think about intake, I tend to like the six pack set up for looks alone.  But after surviving 40 years of storage with most of the stock parts still intact, I will be forced to keep it as stock as possible.  It looks good as is, I do wonder if a set of heads can really make a 300hp motor turn into a 600hp motor with just heads and a cam. 

[garner7555]

Your last statement - " can heads and cam turn a 300 HP into a 600 HP"
My answer would be no.   I am by far no expert like some of these other guys but I do know that your engine will need more to produce 600HP.  Trick Flow says they made 600 on a 440 with their heads, but they also said the engine was 10.5 to 1 compression.      and I'm sure it was tuned to perfection! 

[b5blue]

  BSB67 I agree, not a total derail but off course drift. As I'm waiting for a set of Sidewinder heads to be shipped any day now LW's topic took my interest. Bought not for huge power gains but to optimize what I do have it matches his situation closely. (Same cam, 750 Proform and CH4B intake, HP exhaust.)  The difference is .060 overbore and 346 heads that were serviced a few times that would cost too much to have new valves, valve seats and bronze guides installed. My plan is to test/tune and use my "butt dyno" to gauge gain or loss assessment. Having 20 years with different heads/cam, 727 mods and axle ratios (Most while using a 69-70 6BBL.) I'll know what's going on.
  Over the years my slow crawl from a drag race only build (How it was bought.) to fairly stock has been the opposite direction of many if not most. But for a daily driver living with the car's quirks from mods just got old over 20 years.  (I just want to drive my Charger.)   

[c00nhunterjoe]

It is extremely unlikely that I will modify my engine at all at this stage of the game,  I was wondering what modifications like a set of aluminum heads would make on a stock 440 magnum motor,  and was using my stock bore/stroke 440 magnum dated in 1969.  I can only attest that my motor has not been rebuilt before and still retains the higher compression that It should have from a stock  build.  The motor in mine has approximately 69k original miles on it. 

When I was younger, we didn't bolt headers on unless someone ported the heads first, otherwise it was a waste of effort as you weren't taking advantage of the flow just by bolting headers on like lots of chebbie owners used to do.  Porting the heads was more than the average backyard mechanic did on their cars, racers yes, normal drivers no.  Mine still has the HP exhaust manifolds and stock exhaust pipes all the way to the stock tips. 

Most of what I read about growing up was to spice up the 440 for power, usually involved a hotter cam, maybe roller rockers, an aluminum intake, either single or dual plane depending on what rpm you planned on running, and a larger carburetor.  I have the stock intake, and only deviation is the carb which is a performer 750.  If I was going to modify the engine, I would probably have a set of aluminum heads set up and installed, with a set of tube headers to match the ports on the heads, and then think about intake, I tend to like the six pack set up for looks alone.  But after surviving 40 years of storage with most of the stock parts still intact, I will be forced to keep it as stock as possible.  It looks good as is, I do wonder if a set of heads can really make a 300hp motor turn into a 600hp motor with just heads and a cam. 

You just answered your own question. You are not going to modify it from stock because its origonal. So im not exactly following what you are looking for at this point? If you have an origonal 440 from 69 that has good ring seal and the heads are not wore out; swapping to a set of  1 3/4 long tube headers, edlebrock dual plane intake, 750 carb, good ignition system to include plug and wire- will net you a noticeable gain in performance over bone stock. I would estimate 25-30 hp and 35-40 ft lbs. But viewing the above link from heyoldguy will show the actual dyno results he got.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Todays modern muscle make incredible low end power.  Not sue what car you are talking about  

The large LSA, i.e.  reduced overlap, is not about cylinder pressure, but HC escaping during overlap.  The CR and cylinder pressure are being limited for NOx control, but the manufacturers are not controlling that with LSA/ICL.

40 years ago, then 30 years ago, then 20 years ago, the hobby was doomed, crap gas, thought to be impossible emission standards, and gas mileage standard's.  Everyone said the hobby was dead, more than once, and never coming back.  But today, with way more restrictions than ever, cars are making more power than ever.  10 second factory manufactured street cars that are quiet, idle nice, have A/C, and every imaginable gadget.  No one imagined this.  I think it is a little presumptuous to think that today is the pinnacle.  Even if it slips backwards for some time period, it will still be way better than in the 60s and 70s.

Sure you can bolt on a bunch of go fast parts, and add converter, gear, tire to make a little power and be a little quicker with your low compression motor with crap heads, but will you actually want to drive it then?  And then, with all that stuff, everyone will wonder why you only are make 400 hp, instead of 600 hp, and running 13.0s instead of 11.0s

So to the OP, I agree with you, I think.  You can throw all the HP stuff you want a low compression crap head motor, and you are only polishing a turd.  And that is okay, just as long as you know it.

An honest 550 hp in a nice driving/well mannered BB Mopar is very very easy.  It just costs money.

Agree 100% with everything stated except compression ratio and lsa. Todays muscle cars do not have low compression. Thats a fact. The ls motors are mid 10s , hemis are mid to upper 10s and the new mustang engine is actually at 11:1. On a tighter cam grind, cylinder pressures will be up too high with that kind of static compression and produce excess n0x, looser grinds coupled with variable cam timing, control the pressure and temperature to meet the standards. Catylists take care of the rest. Reduced overlap does limit escaping hydrocarbons. No arguement there.

[BSB67]

Todays modern muscle make incredible low end power.  Not sue what car you are talking about  

The large LSA, i.e.  reduced overlap, is not about cylinder pressure, but HC escaping during overlap.  The CR and cylinder pressure are being limited for NOx control, but the manufacturers are not controlling that with LSA/ICL.

40 years ago, then 30 years ago, then 20 years ago, the hobby was doomed, crap gas, thought to be impossible emission standards, and gas mileage standard's.  Everyone said the hobby was dead, more than once, and never coming back.  But today, with way more restrictions than ever, cars are making more power than ever.  10 second factory manufactured street cars that are quiet, idle nice, have A/C, and every imaginable gadget.  No one imagined this.  I think it is a little presumptuous to think that today is the pinnacle.  Even if it slips backwards for some time period, it will still be way better than in the 60s and 70s.

Sure you can bolt on a bunch of go fast parts, and add converter, gear, tire to make a little power and be a little quicker with your low compression motor with crap heads, but will you actually want to drive it then?  And then, with all that stuff, everyone will wonder why you only are make 400 hp, instead of 600 hp, and running 13.0s instead of 11.0s

So to the OP, I agree with you, I think.  You can throw all the HP stuff you want a low compression crap head motor, and you are only polishing a turd.  And that is okay, just as long as you know it.

An honest 550 hp in a nice driving/well mannered BB Mopar is very very easy.  It just costs money.

Agree 100% with everything stated except compression ratio and lsa. Todays muscle cars do not have low compression. Thats a fact. The ls motors are mid 10s , hemis are mid to upper 10s and the new mustang engine is actually at 11:1. On a tighter cam grind, cylinder pressures will be up too high with that kind of static compression and produce excess n0x, looser grinds coupled with variable cam timing, control the pressure and temperature to meet the standards. Catylists take care of the rest. Reduced overlap does limit escaping hydrocarbons. No arguement there.

I think you missed my point.  Notice I did not say they were low compression, I said they are limiting cylinder pressure with CR, not LSA/ICL

[BSB67]

LW, have you done a cylinder pressure test?  If so, what are the numbers?  If not, you really should do that so you can have some perspective on what you really have.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Based on the entire context, you implied lower compression ratios on modern cars. Any way you look at it, you said that compression ratios were being limited to battle n0x. If that were the case, we wouldnt be at 11:1 on todays v8 muscle cars compared to 9:1 or less on the 60s car that we are comparing.

[1974dodgecharger]

WELL PUT!!!!! 

The only thing modern cars don't have over old school is styling....

Todays modern muscle make incredible low end power.  Not sue what car you are talking about  

The large LSA, i.e.  reduced overlap, is not about cylinder pressure, but HC escaping during overlap.  The CR and cylinder pressure are being limited for NOx control, but the manufacturers are not controlling that with LSA/ICL.

40 years ago, then 30 years ago, then 20 years ago, the hobby was doomed, crap gas, thought to be impossible emission standards, and gas mileage standard's.  Everyone said the hobby was dead, more than once, and never coming back.  But today, with way more restrictions than ever, cars are making more power than ever.  10 second factory manufactured street cars that are quiet, idle nice, have A/C, and every imaginable gadget.  No one imagined this.  I think it is a little presumptuous to think that today is the pinnacle.  Even if it slips backwards for some time period, it will still be way better than in the 60s and 70s.

Sure you can bolt on a bunch of go fast parts, and add converter, gear, tire to make a little power and be a little quicker with your low compression motor with crap heads, but will you actually want to drive it then?  And then, with all that stuff, everyone will wonder why you only are make 400 hp, instead of 600 hp, and running 13.0s instead of 11.0s

So to the OP, I agree with you, I think.  You can throw all the HP stuff you want a low compression crap head motor, and you are only polishing a turd.  And that is okay, just as long as you know it.

An honest 550 hp in a nice driving/well mannered BB Mopar is very very easy.  It just costs money.