Sidewinder aluminum heads, anyone using them?

[b5blue]

  Are you using them? How do you like them and did you use anything special installing them? I'm wanting to try them soon on my .060 overbore 440. 
With a stock set of 69 HP exhaust manifolds I'm thinking no point in any port work as a stone stock exhaust system is also planned for. Tips/advise and opinions are welcome. I'm using Firecore RTR ignition, Proform 750 vacuum secondary on top of a CH4B intake and Mopar "resto" cam. The stock 727 has a Mopar 19-2100 stall T.C. and the 8 3/4 axle runs 3.23 gears. 

[Challenger340]

IMO,
I think installing the Sidewinders might a waste of time and money without a decent Compression Ratio Piston in your 440 ? So if you don't already know for sure what Piston Part # is in there, might be a good idea to check FIRST ?
more specifically.....
you don't have those "notoriously" low compression rebuilder cast Pistons in your .060 over 440 ? do you ? You know... the ones the books advertise as "10 to 1" but are really more like 7.8:1 ?

just say'in...
I hope you don't have those Pistons in your .060 over 440 ?  but might be a real good idea to check what Piston you have FIRST before investing ?(if you don't already know ?), because I think you may be extremely dis-appointed with the result if those Pistons are present.
because,
* you would still have approx .140" or more quench distance with those Pistons on the sidewinders (no gain)
* Any C.R. increase would be negligible at 84 cc chamber on the sidewinders, if you are switching from any open chamber iron head (no gain)
* and unless you have sufficient Cam event to take advantage of any extra flow ?  (no gain)

[b5blue]

 No not a "problem" I'm trying to remedy. I used the Mopar Performance book to build this engine. The Speed Pro Hypers spec at 9.5 and I believe (From my tuning.) they are a bit higher with my old school cam. I've had to slow the curve and pull some timing to reduce pinging, that's telling me compression is a bit high for today's crap fuel.
The heads will let me put more timing back (=+power) flow better and shave 50LBs dead weight. (Win/win/win.) Thanks for the input but it's a bit off the mark. I'm not looking for much more power, my 346 heads got a quickie redo 5-6 years ago to get me by till I could install new heads, it's time.     

[BSB67]

No not a "problem" I'm trying to remedy. I used the Mopar Performance book to build this engine. The Speed Pro Hypers spec at 9.5 and I believe (From my tuning.) they are a bit higher with my old school cam. I've had to slow the curve and pull some timing to reduce pinging, that's telling me compression is a bit high for today's crap fuel.
The heads will let me put more timing back (=+power) flow better and shave 50LBs dead weight. (Win/win/win.) Thanks for the input but it's a bit off the mark. I'm not looking for much more power, my 346 heads got a quickie redo 5-6 years ago to get me by till I could install new heads, it's time.     

The more specific you can get with the piston you have the more exacting our responses will be.   You can use anything from a 84 cc head to a 70 cc head  You can pin point the best CR for your application.

About the Sidewinders, I have no personal knowledge of them, but I haven't heard any complaining going on.  I would still have someone go through them and work them over a bit.

[Challenger340]

No not a "problem" I'm trying to remedy. I used the Mopar Performance book to build this engine. The Speed Pro Hypers spec at 9.5 and I believe (From my tuning.) they are a bit higher with my old school cam. I've had to slow the curve and pull some timing to reduce pinging, that's telling me compression is a bit high for today's crap fuel.
The heads will let me put more timing back (=+power) flow better and shave 50LBs dead weight. (Win/win/win.) Thanks for the input but it's a bit off the mark. I'm not looking for much more power, my 346 heads got a quickie redo 5-6 years ago to get me by till I could install new heads, it's time.      

Are you absolutely sure your Pistons are "Speed Pro" ? or could they be "sealed power" ? Both brands are made by Federal Mogul Corp.
But, and the reason I ask....
is because "Speed Pro" does NOT make a "Hyper" Alloy Piston, and never did as far as I know ?
However,
"Sealed Power" does indeed make a "eutectic" Piston, the Part # 350NP.... which is one of the notoriously LOW compression Pistons I mentioned earlier ?
see here:
http://www.fme-cat.com/overlays/part-detail.aspx?pNum=350NP%2030&brand=SP&pt=Piston&lookedUp=Chrysler%20Car%20(Incl.%20Chrysler,%20DeSoto,%20Dodge,%20Eagle,%20Plymouth)%20-%207.2L%20440%20(7211cc)%20OHV%20V8%20(16%20Valve),%20VIN%20V&sm=Cast%20Piston
The above are no where near "9.5:1"

Even an 8.5:1 Engine will ping if the Timing is too far ahead, it is not necessarily a reflection on fuel quality.


just say'in....
get out your Invoice and make ABSOLUTELY SURE what Piston part # you have FIRST ! BEFORE diving into an aluminum head like the Sidewinders  
The "advertised" book Compression Ratios and specs on many Pistons were WAAAYYY OFF ! The 350NP included.
Terrible .135" Quench Distance
Next to no C.R. increase at 84 CC's
But you would shed 50 lbs.... the very expensive way.

[BSB67]

So if Bob is correct, which I bet he is, the 350NP piston with the 1.990 CD will be 0.080" to 0.090" in the hole.  Not great, but workable in my opinion.

Edelbrock E-Street heads, mill them down to 70 to 72 cc, Clean-up the guides/seats/back-cut.  Your power increase will be very noticeable if not huge.

[cdr]

the best thing to do is pull one of the heads & measure the piston deck height, THEN order the heads.  you are going to pull the heads anyway to replace them.

[firefighter3931]

My buddy Kevin (Blown68) has a set of the Sidewinders on his procharged 440 and it's running great so far. Based on the MPH/ET the engine is making in the 800hp range. These heads were worked over with some portwork and valve seat work as well as upgraded springs & retainers. It's a roller cam setup 

The casting quality is very good from what I saw of them and Kevin seems impressed. With a soft tune it's run 9.30's at 145mph + 



Ron

[303 Mopar]

My buddy Kevin (Blown68) has a set of the Sidewinders on his procharged 440 and it's running great so far. Based on the MPH/ET the engine is making in the 800hp range. These heads were worked over with some portwork and valve seat work as well as upgraded springs & retainers. It's a roller cam setup 

The casting quality is very good from what I saw of them and Kevin seems impressed. With a soft tune it's run 9.30's at 145mph + 

Ron

That is a great shot!   

[b5blue]

Damn 9's....that's smoken!  It's clear missing having the time to double check and CC the the heads is biting me in the butt now. Again though I'm not doing this to build more power, it goes fine. (The racing days are over!)
Why would you guys think I've been struggling with ping if I had less than 9 to one compression?  Jeeze I should be burning 87 octane fine @ 8.4! 

[BSB67]

My buddy Kevin (Blown68) has a set of the Sidewinders on his procharged 440 and it's running great so far. Based on the MPH/ET the engine is making in the 800hp range. These heads were worked over with some portwork and valve seat work as well as upgraded springs & retainers. It's a roller cam setup 

The casting quality is very good from what I saw of them and Kevin seems impressed. With a soft tune it's run 9.30's at 145mph + 

Ron

That is a great shot!   

...and a great looking car!!!

[BSB67]

Why would you guys think I've been struggling with ping if I had less than 9 to one compression?  Jeeze I should be burning 87 octane fine @ 8.4! 

Why would you think?

[Eldovert]

"Even an 8.5:1 Engine will ping if the Timing is too far ahead, it is not necessarily a reflection on fuel quality."

[b5blue]

Why would you guys think I've been struggling with ping if I had less than 9 to one compression?  Jeeze I should be burning 87 octane fine @ 8.4!  

Why would you think?

Yea, any ideas? The target for this build was not high power it was long life and being able to use 87-89 octane. I'd had 12 years of the drag build on the road (509 cam w closed chamber heads and my six pack.) Daily driving, it was my work truck with 250lbs of tools loaded in it. (I can fit a 6ft 6in level in the trunk!) It was very fussy about fuel, I had to constantly know where to get certain premium fuel while covering a 3 county area as a steel framer. A few 1,000 mile road trips had me thinking this fuel thing has to end, not knowing where to refuel, keeping octane boost in the car for just in case was a pain.  
While always enjoying any input/opinion we've gone from about the heads to why I want them. I was hoping to see a few reviews from those who installed them? (Thanks Ron.)

[heyoldguy]

Why would you guys think I've been struggling with ping if I had less than 9 to one compression?  Jeeze I should be burning 87 octane fine @ 8.4!  

Why would you think?

Yea, any ideas? The target for this build was not high power it was long life and being able to use 87-89 octane. I'd had 12 years of the drag build on the road (509 cam w closed chamber heads and my six pack.) Daily driving, it was my work truck with 250lbs of tools loaded in it. (I can fit a 6ft 6in level in the trunk!) It was very fussy about fuel, I had to constantly know where to get certain premium fuel while covering a 3 county area as a steel framer. A few 1,000 mile road trips had me thinking this fuel thing has to end, not knowing where to refuel, keeping octane boost in the car for just in case was a pain.  
While always enjoying any input/opinion we've gone from about the heads to why I want them. I was hoping to see a few reviews from those who installed them? (Thanks Ron.)

Well what cam are you running now?

[b5blue]

Mopar P4452783   268/284 duration- .450/.458 lift- 46* overlap

[heyoldguy]

Where is the cam timed at, or better yet, what is the cranking compression, because I think the  camshaft may be the detonation problem.

[b5blue]

Interesting, that cam is the "resto" grind. ( Magnum/Roadrunner ect. ) It may take a while but I'll get the info.

[Challenger340]

Geez Ron 9.30's is moving pretty darn good for a big old B-Body !  Great looking car to boot. 

Your buddy's Car must be setup extremely well !!
I just finished a 493 / INDY deal that the guy wanted "low 10"s" in a 1966 Coronet.... we Dyno'd at 815 hp(with the Air Cleaner) but I don't think he'll get anywhere near that fast.

[BSB67]

Interesting, that cam is the "resto" grind. ( Magnum/Roadrunner ect. ) It may take a while but I'll get the info.

It should have a 67° ABDC (advertised) and a 47° ABDC (0.050") intake closing point.  You should still check and report back the cranking pressure number.

[b5blue]

  Hey now I'm now recalling details from back when I installed the block. I had tuning issues found to be from a crappy NAPA rebuilt dizzy. Talking to Chuck my builder, one of the things I'd asked to be done was to "Degree the crank/cam" to be certain it was correct. He admitted he forgot to do so when I asked about how that went. I was fairly pissed but he'd mentioned I'd supplied all Mopar parts cam/lifters, timing chain/gears and the 69 block had a factory forged crank so that should be no issue.
  One of the things I'll be doing is replacing the factory balancer, it seems fine but it's about 46 years old and I don't trust it due to the age of the rubber. (I've had other cars fail at about 20 years old.)
  So there are 2 potentially related issues to the questions asked, both could skew "what I think" as apposed to "what is" going on.  Again thanks for taking an interest and your time helping me out guys! I've got to get a compression tester and recheck dizzy settings/adjustments to see where they are at now. (It's been really hot and raining a lot down here in FL. so I've avoided getting stuck under the carport fighting skeeters, sweating and getting wet!) 

[firefighter3931]

Geez Ron 9.30's is moving pretty darn good for a big old B-Body !  Great looking car to boot. 

It is a nice looking & strong running combo ! 

The Pro Charger is a pretty nice deal and it's quite a bit faster than it was previously with the Roots setup. Best ever with the (undersized) 671 was a 10.02@135 so the F2 has made a dramatic increase in power and performance. This is a pump gas street car but he uses race gas at the track. Timing is very conservative with the distributor locked out at 18* and the jetting is a bit fat for that extra margin of safety.

There's definitely more in it 



Ron

[firefighter3931]

Neil,

Here's something to consider ;

My buddy Denis (member 66chargertoy) has a mild build very similar to yours ; rebuilt 440 (unknown pistons) with open chamber iron heads, CH4B, Proform 750dp, HP exhaust manifolds and a cam I specced for the build (Crower HDP 271) along with a FireCore RTR distributor and coil/wires. It ran pretty good but was allways on the edge with 93 pump gas. I lent Denis my LM-1 A/F guage and he got the fuel curve dialed in spot on.  

Even with all of that attention to detail he had to back the timing off to 31-32* total to keep it out of detonation. As the weather warmed up it became more of an issue. Part of the problem was the summer heat but another contributing factor is the factory exhaust manifolds....they just hold more heat which compounds the problem.

He decided to go to an aluminum casting and ordered up a set of the Stealth's. We had them inspected locally and some minor machinework was performed. Guide clearance was checked and a performance valvejob along with the installation of Comp Cams retainers/locks. The installation went smooth with no hickups or problems.

Denis reports that the car drives much better and has a noticeable power improvement. He was able to time the engine properly and now has it set at 18* base/ 35* total all in by 2400 rpm. The aluminum head upgrade removed 50lbs off the front of the car as well. The power increase can be attributed to two things ; first, there is a substantial increase in flow vs the iron heads and secondly the timing can now be optimized for best performance. With the iron heads he had to back the timing off to keep it from detonating which ultimately hurt power.  

The motor is definitely more snappy now than it had been and he's been able to achieve 15mpg on a long hwy run. Denis has told me that he's even been able to run it on 87 octane with no detonation.


Overall, I'd say the head swap on this build was an overwhelming success. The car is better in every way ; performance, fuel economy and drivability.  


Ron

[b5blue]

You answered my PM while I sent it. 

[66chargertoy]

Neil,

Just to confirm what Ron explained about my combo. It was getting to a point that driving the charger with the detonation was just not pleasant. I was even considering getting the Snow Performance injection, but decided to take Ron's advise and got the aluminum heads. Other than clearance issues due to the larger pushrods with the stealth heads, the install was pretty easy. With the other changes I have done recently, (battery in the trunk and power brakes), the car is now enjoyable to drive around. When my son got married this past September, he requested that I bring the car up for the wedding so my wife and I can bring the bride and groom back to the hall from the ceremonies with the charger. Wedding was a two hour drive from home and the car was flawless. Steady temps, no pinging, crisp acceleration, just all around great.
Again thanks Ron.

Here's a link to my pushrod issues.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,118431.msg1468925.html#msg1468925