Having trouble getting the alignment numbers that I asked for!

[Kern Dog]

I've had good luck getting my Charger to steer and handle the way that I like, so I took what I'd learned and tried to help out a friend with his 71 Road Runner.
He is the original owner and has made small changes over the years, but nothing too drastic. He wanted a firmer ride and more responsive steering so we added the following:

1.0 torsion bars replaced the stock .90 bars.
MP XHD Hemi leaf springs replaced the stock 5 leaf pack.
Welded in 3x3 frame connectors.
upper Control Arms with offset bushings installed to increase caster.
Fast ratio Idler and Pitman arms.

The car sits at what may be considered stock height. I didn't measure it but it looks about where I've seen others sit. 15x7 wheels, 235-60-15 tires. He had the car aligned today. I went along to tell the man that he didn't want the stock 1971 alignment specs, I had the following:
0 to 1/2 degree NEG camber
2-4 degrees POS caster
1/8" toe in.

The alignment guy couldn't even get close to anything except the toe #. Why? the car has never been wrecked. The parts are all stock except the bushings in the upper control arms. The car came with 14" rally wheels but that shouldn't make much difference. I didn't get a copy of the sheet but the numbers I recall were almost zero caster on the left, something like 0.2 and about 0.8 on the right with slight positive camber on both sides. What the heck??? wouldn't adding some NEG camber automatically get you more caster? There is more adjustment left in the alignment cams, I could see that.
The owner said the car feels twitchy. I know that Fast Ratio arms with overboosted steering will make a car feel a bit funny but the car felt okay to me. The steering wheel returns to center after a turn. My Charger has the same basic setup as this Road Runner but mine feels rock solid. I had mine aligned at a different place and was able to get 4+ degrees of caster on both sides along with .75 NEG camber.
The obvious suggestion might be to take the car to a different shop. My first suggestion months ago was to go to the guy that I use. I'm just curious to learn if I did something wrong or if I missed something.
The bushings in the Upper control arms were pressed in so that the front side bushings had the thin spot toward the engine. The rear bushings have the thin spots toward the fenders. It seems that this should have easily resulted in getting the numbers we asked for. It was aligned 9 months ago at the same shop after he replaced tie rod ends. At that time it still had the stock UCA bushings. The numbers were not much better than what we got today.
The owner is not interested in buying tubular A-Arms. If he was dying of thirst he wouldn't spend $10 on a bottle of water.
I'd appreciate any suggestions on what else to try. I'd like to not only help this guy, but others in the future. Thanks, Greg

[Kern Dog]

A thought that has crossed my mind is the orientation of the UCA bushings. I am sure I put them in right but I'm certainly not perfect. Take a look at the following pictures. These are of a RH UCA that I wanted to use. the owner saw a defect near the ball joint sleeve so we used another one. The bushings in this one are in the same position as the other one.

[Kern Dog]

2

[Kern Dog]

3

[Kern Dog]

4

[WHITE AND RED 69]

I thought I read on here somewhere that the instructions were wrong so the bushings end up getting installed backwards? 

On page 2 of this thread

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,119605.25.html

[Kern Dog]

I thought I read on here somewhere that the instructions were wrong so the bushings end up getting installed backwards? 

On page 2 of this thread

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,119605.25.html

In some cases, there was an instruction sheet included with the box that these K 7103 bushings come in. The instructions are there to describe the original reason that the bushings were designed for. They were intended to help cars with excessive negative camber by effectively moving the whole UCA away from the body & mounting points by about 1/4". This moves the top of the tire out.
The trick that many have learned is that if the rear bushing is installed opposite of the instructions, it tilts the upper ball joint to the rear. THIS increases the caster angle.

[HPP]

The bushings in the Upper control arms were pressed in so that the front side bushings had the thin spot toward the engine. The rear bushings have the thin spots toward the fenders.

There's your problem. This is backwards. You  want to move the upper ball joint towards the rear of the car for extra caster. You install above is doing the  opposite.

[Kern Dog]

Thanks, but look at the pictures. I'm sure they are in right. The pictures are from the RH arm.

[HPP]

It looks like both bushings are facing the same direction based on the pics above. The front tbushing appears to be installed okay, but the rear looks backwards.

[WhiteOnGreen]

To me looks in correct position, more value "x", pull  the balljoint back and increases caster

[b5blue]

 Has he replaced LCA's bushings? What about strut rod bushings? Ride height, Per FSM full tank of fuel and I prefer adding dead weight equivalence or driver in the seat for ride height and alignment. 
My last shop alignment was really close to stock spec. so I did as you with stagger offset bushings. (In new repop UCAs.) Now I'm messing around with a DIY bubble alignment tool and a simple set of steel tire turntables. As I did a disk swap at the same time I added solid mount adjustable strut rods at the same time. By removing slop and settle from front end I've got good numbers, near as I can tell driving. (Adjusting-checking and so on several times.)  I've room to change settings in all directions.
My point is any worn or old bushings/ball joints will effect alignment in exactly the wrong direction from natural wear/settling. (100% of my front end is overhauled.) As you adjust ride height you set the arc of movement up and down for front end travel so you always start there first. The front suspension could have slop or offset from age/wear that shifts numbers every time it's adjusted then driven.     

[HPP]

I guess I was wrong.

[Kern Dog]

The reason the front bushing may look out of place is because the ferrule is still attached. With it removed, you can see the offset is correctly placed.

[cdr]

they are correct for the right side.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Pic looks right. Definatly something sounds off. If that guy has the cams maxed out to achieve those numbers, then on stock bushings you would have had negative caster.... i wish he lived closer and i would line it up.

Also, the overboosted power steering is a simple fix if you have a saginaw pump on it. Simply shim the spring on the pressure valve and you can drop the line pressure and dramaticly increase road feel. Mopars run on average 1200-1500 psi which is why you can steer with your pinky. Dropping to 700 psi give is the feel of a modern sports car and can usually be accomplished with 2 small washers.

[Kern Dog]

Pic looks right. Definatly something sounds off. If that guy has the cams maxed out to achieve those numbers, then on stock bushings you would have had negative caster.... i wish he lived closer and i would line it up.

Also, the overboosted power steering is a simple fix if you have a saginaw pump on it. Simply shim the spring on the pressure valve and you can drop the line pressure and dramaticly increase road feel. Mopars run on average 1200-1500 psi which is why you can steer with your pinky. Dropping to 700 psi give is the feel of a modern sports car and can usually be accomplished with 2 small washers.

Thanks, I do have that pump shim trick in mind. I have cannabalized a few pumps to extract more than enough washers to do the job. It is on the agenda for tomorrow.

[Dino]

I need to run to the hardware store and see if I can find shims of the correct size, I don't have any spare pumps to cannibalize.   

Anyone have any suggestions on how many shims to use?  I thought about bringing it up to a total of roughly 0.1".  I'd like to have the wheel feel firm but not so much that I have to go to the gym.

[c00nhunterjoe]

I made my washers. Just rooted through the junk drawer until i found a few with the correct hole diameter, then ground the outside circumference down until it cleared the bore. Took a whole 5 minutes to do the entire job. I did not measure since each pump is a little difference depending on the age. Usually 2 washers does the trick and is a good place to start. You can always add more or take them back out until you get the feel you desire.

[Kern Dog]

Today I stood and watched as the guy took 2 1/2 -3 hours to pull the pump, do the shims/washers and put it back together.   

I know I am not the fastest wrench in the West, but ....

He put in a total of .125 in there. I'd read where guys went as thick as .140 so this seemed like a decent starting point. It was fine in the garage but after a drive, it got to where he couldn't steer the car while it was stopped. I guess he will be spending another 2 1/2 hours on it taking a few washers out.

[b5blue]

It's a good thing you done.....we learn by doing. Next round should go faster. 

[myk]

Today I stood and watched as the guy took 2 1/2 -3 hours to pull the pump, do the shims/washers and put it back together.   

I know I am not the fastest wrench in the West, but ....

He put in a total of .125 in there. I'd read where guys went as thick as .140 so this seemed like a decent starting point. It was fine in the garage but after a drive, it got to where he couldn't steer the car while it was stopped. I guess he will be spending another 2 1/2 hours on it taking a few washers out.

He had to pull the pump?  I thought you could do the 'mod in-car?

[HPP]

The reason the front bushing may look out of place is because the ferrule is still attached. With it removed, you can see the offset is correctly placed.

That's probably why.

All I could attribute the lack of numbers too would be the (lack of) quality control from Chrysler back in the day.  I have seen documents allowing between .125 to .25 allowance on some body measurements, so its entirely possible your friends car is one of the wide tolerance examples.

[Back N Black]

Today I stood and watched as the guy took 2 1/2 -3 hours to pull the pump, do the shims/washers and put it back together.  

I know I am not the fastest wrench in the West, but ....

He put in a total of .125 in there. I'd read where guys went as thick as .140 so this seemed like a decent starting point. It was fine in the garage but after a drive, it got to where he couldn't steer the car while it was stopped. I guess he will be spending another 2 1/2 hours on it taking a few washers out.


He had to pull the pump?  I thought you could do the 'mod in-car?

[/quote]

It depends on which pump you have Saginaw or Federal. The federal has to be removed IOT do the mod.

[Kern Dog]

Its just that the pump sits pretty close to the block. You'd have to swing the pump clockwise to get access to the fitting, and at that point it is just as easy to make the "changes" with the pump on a bench.
I've done this before in less than a half hour.

[Dino]

Okay...now what?

[Dino]

Never mind, I didn't realize I hadn't removed the actual valve yet.  My bad!   

[1974dodgecharger]

this be an expensive route, but maybe try aftermarket UPC?  That gives you more flexibility on the alignment than stockers can give.

[Kern Dog]

I was lucky with my 70 Charger. I have stock UCAs and LCAs but with the offset bushings, I got almost 5 degrees of POS caster and 1/2 degree of NEG camber.
The car in question is a 71 Road Runner owned by a retired guy in our local Mopar club. He is strange when it comes to spending money. He'd rather die of thirst than to pay $10 for a bottle of water. Aftermarket control arms? HA !! Think of all the other things he could spend that money on....

[HeavyFuel]

What the heck??? wouldn't adding some NEG camber automatically get you more caster? There is more adjustment left in the alignment cams, I could see that.

You lose positive caster when you gain negative camber.   Its a trade-off and you just have to settle on middle ground with SOME cars.  

I have the same MOOG offset bushes, installed the way you did.  An attempt at a shade tree mechanic alignment job performed in my garage got me dead on with the toe in (1/16 each side), camber was + 7/8* and +5/8*, and the caster was about +2* and +3 3/4*.    I couldn't get it to drive decent after I dicked with it, so off to the shop we went.

Best they could get was around +1/4* camber each side and +1* caster.  Toe ended up at zero and 3/32......I did better toe than that with my string job.

The numbers aren't pretty, but the car drives decent and tracks nice.


The shop guys (all old.....they like my car and won't let the younger guys work on it) let me down in the pit and explained that the right side aligns great, lots of caster available.   Not so much on the left side.   Either a bent LCA from a frontal impact, or perhaps factory sloppiness.    So in the future I'll either be looking for a better LCA or aftermarket uppers.   Or I'll drive it like it is....which really isn't that bad.

We could be just asking for too much.   The factory specs didn't call for a lot of caster, so the engineering might not be up to the task.   

[Kern Dog]

As soon as I put my mind to it, I understood that principle where the Camber and Caster are tied together. Getting a bunch of NEG camber and POS caster is not possible with stock parts.

[b5blue]

I added adjustable struts mainly to ditch the rubber mounts but I can pull a bit more castor if needed. 

[c00nhunterjoe]

As soon as I put my mind to it, I understood that principle where the Camber and Caster are tied together. Getting a bunch of NEG camber and POS caster is not possible with stock parts.

Not exactly. By gaining negative camber using the REAR pivot only, you will increase positive caster while gaining negative camber. Start with the front pivot in the full outward position before taking a caster sweep.

[HeavyFuel]

As soon as I put my mind to it, I understood that principle where the Camber and Caster are tied together. Getting a bunch of NEG camber and POS caster is not possible with stock parts.

Not exactly. By gaining negative camber using the REAR pivot only, you will increase positive caster while gaining negative camber. Start with the front pivot in the full outward position before taking a caster sweep.

As I understand it, yes, the front cam bolt will be at the furthest out position when getting started....but likewise, the rear cam is at the furthest inward.  That is the 'max' possible + caster setting.

But you'll also have a ton of + camber, so like mentioned previously, as you add - camber, you lose + caster.

I think that's right.......but hell, I had to take mine to a shop, so don't listen to me....  

[Kern Dog]

I agree.