Anybody ever tried FI Tech fuel injection?

[garner7555]

hey JR. I'm trying to get timing control going with a firecore dist and can't get it to fire. I get RPM signal but no spark. I found the rotor phase and reluctor wheel seems off by a little which makes me think the signal is firing but too late.

Did you have to set the rotor phasing with the MSD dist? Or can you give me the steps on how you got everything timed and happy with each other? Like base timing etc etc

I'm currently running the Firecore 2 wire billet dist.

Edit: did a bunch of reading and it seems you HAVE TO be able to phase the rotor. Calling Fitech tomorrow to find out. Luckily they are 45 mins from me, might have to take a drive up there and see what's up.

Please post the results because I have the same distributor for my FiTech.   

[JR]

hey JR. I'm trying to get timing control going with a firecore dist and can't get it to fire. I get RPM signal but no spark. I found the rotor phase and reluctor wheel seems off by a little which makes me think the signal is firing but too late.

Did you have to set the rotor phasing with the MSD dist? Or can you give me the steps on how you got everything timed and happy with each other? Like base timing etc etc

I'm currently running the Firecore 2 wire billet dist.

Edit: did a bunch of reading and it seems you HAVE TO be able to phase the rotor. Calling Fitech tomorrow to find out. Luckily they are 45 mins from me, might have to take a drive up there and see what's up.

Yeah man, no problem.

First off, a phasable rotor/locked out distributor is a MUST. Basically​, with the ECU controlling timing, the rotor must be locked in place with no mechanical advance. The FItech will control every aspect of advance/retard. The mechanical springs will clash with what the ECU is inputting. Basically, if the rotor isn't locked out, and the mechanical springs advance 15 degrees, and the computer also advances 15 degrees, add in your base timing and you've got WAY too much timing. The FItech also has no way to sense where the distributor is, so you have to set it up mechanically, then tell the computer the settings, and it takes over from there.
The phasable rotor is a must because once you've got your timing set and the distributor locked, it's doubtful that the spark jumping from the cap to the rotor will line up perfectly. It will likely be offset to one corner, and will burn up ignition components quickly. The phasable rotor allows you to adjust this correctly.

The simplified installation instructions are.
1. Change the wiring on the harness to the instructions in the FiTech manual. If I remember correctly, it's only one or two wires that have to be moved. Its really simple.

2. Remove the old distributor, making note of where the rotor is pointing.

3. Install the pro billet distributor with locked rotor in the same place. Try to line up with where the old distributor was as close as you can.

4. On the FItech controller, go into the menu IGNITION, and change from "2 WIRE VR+COIL" to "VR COIL."

5. The engine should start. On my engine it took 20 seconds to fire off the very first time I ran ignition control. I don't know why. It never took that long again after the first time. I chalked it up as a fluke.

6. Put a timing light on the engine, and set the base distributor timing, just like you would with a carb'd engine. I'm running 10 degrees base, but everyone's got their own preferences.

7. Go into the FItech menu, under ignition setup (I think), and program in the base timing to match whatever you set the distributor to. I.E., 10 degrees base timing at the damper, then input 10 degrees into the computer.

8. Here's where the phasable rotor comes in, and why it's so important. You'll need a spare distributor cap to do this. Rather than try to explain it, I'll post a video link here.

https://youtu.be/aWMlNwGW0tM

Basically, if you don't phase the rotor, it will be firing at the very corner of the rotor button, and will destroy caps and rotors in short order, and probably cause it to run funny.

9. You can also tune total advance timing in the handheld controller. Just match it to however your old distributor was set up for a baseline.

That should be everything. Im going off memory for everything there.

I have no experience with the Firecore pro billet distributor, I don't know if they offer a phasable rotor or not. But the phasable rotor is a MUST. No way around it. I am going to speculate that if your rotor isn't locked and you don't have a phasable rotor, then the rotor button isn't in the right place when it sends the spark. Do you have fire out of the coil?

I can also report, I've put around 1500 miles on my FiTech running timing control, and it has been flawless. The engine runs even better with the computer controlling the timing. Advance is silky smooth, I can pull or increase timing by pressing a button, and it works just as advertised. Not to mention, with no separate ECU or vacuum advance pod, the engine bay is much less cluttered now.

I'll be running my car this weekend at the Summit Racing Motorama autocross in Atlanta if anyone local wants to see the system in person.

The only thing that hurt was paying the credit card bill for the new distributor.

I hope this helps.

[68CoronetRT]

Yea, I just talked to Fitech. I'm getting like 150 back to zero RPM signal. They are saying the magnetic pickup in the dist could be weak and not a strong(Think of a strong magnet) enough signal to trigger the Fitech system for a solid RPM signal. He said to try the reluctor gap at .010-.030 and if it doesnt work then the magnet isnt strong enough for the system to get a good enough reading. I've already emailed Firefighter(Ron) about this.

Going to adjust the reluctor gap and try again, if I cant get a strong crank RPM signal than I guess I'll have my Firecore up for sale.

Looking at the MSD dist, you can see the reluctor posts are way wider when crossing the pickup, so allows more time for a signal to be created.

Thanks for the step by step.

[JR]

No problem. There's also an MSD knockoff that runs half the price of the MSD (but still will allow using the MSD phasable rotor) if you want to save some money. Here's a link from Johnny at Pace Performance, who was very helpful to me with setting up timing control. I've linked this before in this thread, but I'll bump it again because the distributor info is pertinent here.

http://www.forcbodiesonly.com/mopar-forum/threads/fitech-efi-question-and-answer.27076/

[68CoronetRT]

Just spent a good 2 hours with the Firecore trying to make it run. After adjusting the reluctor gap I was getting a good signal to the computer. I did get spark and a quick blip of running and then nothing. Tried over and over again with different dist timing and still nothing.

Ordered an MSD 8546 and 84211 rotor. I don't think the Firecore can work with the way the reluctor and rotor are affixed to each other.

[garner7555]

Well that is terrible news.  I have a brand new Firecore distributor that I had planned to mate with FiTech.   Thanks for posting your experience to save others from pulling their hair out.      

[Dino]

Well that is terrible news.  I have a brand new Firecore distributor that I had planned to mate with FiTech.   Thanks for posting your experience to save others from pulling their hair out.      

But you have the tall race distributor don't you? I think those work.

[68CoronetRT]

Mine is the billet HEI capped Firecore, no vacuum advance. It technically is a 2 wire magnetic pickup dist which Fitech says will work. I WAS getting fire and a signal to the computer. It just wouldn't get up and start running. For all I know it could even be the dwell line form the mSD box itself, I dont have any wire laying around to bypass the MSD box, so that could even be the issue.

MSD will be here tomorrow and I'm going to start my timing from scratch. Meaning re set everything up. I'll post back once I have some results.

[68CoronetRT]

Decided to give Johnny at Pace Performance a call today. He was able to answer my couple questions and confirm that the Firecore Dist will not work with Fitech, not a clean enough signal to allow the computer to do it's job.

I'll have more updates Friday, wont have time tonight or tomorrow to play with the install. New parts showed up today though. 

Anyone want a Firecore dist? I actually have 2 now, 1 has the guts torn out of it and would only be good for a signal input for something.

[JR]

That's great news.

[68CoronetRT]

Quick Update.

Another 2 hours playing with this system. MSD dist is installed and every single step in order taken to make it run. Does the same thing the Firecore dist did. Get's signal to fire, fires, engine make about 1 revolution with fire and then nothing. If I hold the starter engaged the engine will begin to run but does not stay running. I have to believe now that the Firecore WILL WORK with the reluctor air gap setup correctly. I'm also convinced I have a hardware issue with the Fitech.

Looking back when we first installed it a year ago, we had it running with Firecore and the timing control working. After an hour or so, go to start the car and sometimes it would run and sometimes it would not run, and then eventually it just stopped trying altogether. So tried everything again and nothing has changed. I'll see what Fitech has to say about this, I know my order was backordered at the time and wondering if they rushed the orders and hardware quality went down? Luckily they are 45 mins from me. I'll put the car on a flatbed if they dont believe me and they can figure this out on their own!

[John_Kunkel]

Have you tried giving it more startup and initial run fuel in the hand-held controller? How do you have the IGN 1 and IGN 2 ignition switch circuits wired?

Forgive me if you already stated that, don't want to search 11 pages.

[JR]

Have you tried giving it more startup and initial run fuel in the hand-held controller? How do you have the IGN 1 and IGN 2 ignition switch circuits wired?

Forgive me if you already stated that, don't want to search 11 pages.

I was just about to ask this too.

[68CoronetRT]

Well if it ran on fuel only for a year, and ran before with ignition timing working(for about an hour). Wouldn't that mean the wiring is correct?

It does the same thing wither I bypass the MSD and drive the coil's negative post or use the MSD's dwell to drive the coil.

I dont know if I understand the ign1 and 2 part. I have the constant wired to the starter relay lug on the firewall. Are you talking about cranking and then running power? That might make sense that it kinda runs when starter is engaged and when it goes into constant power it just dies. The hand held never dies though, if that makes a difference.

Hmm

[firefighter3931]

Have you tried giving it more startup and initial run fuel in the hand-held controller? How do you have the IGN 1 and IGN 2 ignition switch circuits wired?

Forgive me if you already stated that, don't want to search 11 pages.

I was just about to ask this too.

Yep, you need 12v in both the engine start & engine run positions of the ignition circuit. Check for 12V at the power input of your box/controller.....with the key in the forward/run position. 

Years ago I had an odd situation that was very similar and it turned out to be the internal wiring in the MSD Box. It would fire but once you let the key off it would just stall. In that case I checked the engine run key position and I did indeed have 12V so this was a real head scratcher.  At that point I suspected an internal (box) wiring issue so I tried reversing the pickup wires and low and behold she fired right up ! 

Electrical gremlins can be a pain in the azz to hunt down ! 

Upon further research I discovered the GM and Chrysler use different pickup wiring in their distributors. If a box is wired correctly for a GM distributor it will not work properly with a Chrysler distributor and vice versa. Most aftermarket stuff is universal and primarily GM oriented so if the FI box is generic it's quite possible that the pickup input wiring is backwards for a Chrysler application. In some cases the engine will still run with the pickup wires reversed but it won't perform well. These are questions that should be asked of the FI tech support, inmo. 


Ron

[68CoronetRT]

Just went and double checked. Main 12v power is off the starter relay lug, white wire for "key" is the same source that the MSD 6al gets for it's keyed wire. So it's getting 12v in the run position and also during cranking. Which the MSD has to have as well. I can change that wire and move it to where I used to have the tach wired for key on/starting, so I'm not stacking wires on top of wires.

I tried messing with the fuel settings. I still think this is a hardware problem. I mean if it worked before then why not now?

[JR]

Just went and double checked. Main 12v power is off the starter relay lug, white wire for "key" is the same source that the MSD 6al gets for it's keyed wire. So it's getting 12v in the run position and also during cranking. Which the MSD has to have as well. I can change that wire and move it to where I used to have the tach wired for key on/starting, so I'm not stacking wires on top of wires.

I tried messing with the fuel settings. I still think this is a hardware problem. I mean if it worked before then why not now?

Im sorry if i missed this, but have you verified that this wire is hot during start AND run? Both the red and the white wires have to be hot during both. If you havent modified the Chrysler wiring, then it will cause problems just like this.

I would have someone slowly turn the ignition key to start, and back to run, while you hold a test light to this white wire. It should stay hot until you turn the switch back off. If it flickers between start and run, it will cause the engine to start, and run as long as the switch is in "start", and die when the switch goes back to "run".

[68CoronetRT]

Quick Update. I did check for voltage and all is good there.

Talked with Bryce this morning up at Fitech. They have had ALOT of problems with low voltage during cranking and low RPM signal during cranking in the past year since I've bought mine with many many other customers. He says that my 150-250 RPM signal is way too low so they have an updated firmware that attacks this problem. It came out Oct 16' and my firmware is dated as Dec 15'!. The latest update address the filters that allow the engine to run under a lower RPM signal situation.

Going to try this tonight and I'll report back. That means the Firecore Dist will work!

Another side note is that the computer is ground through the intake manifold and people on a Bronco forum were saying that just adding a ground wire from a mounting stud to a good engine/chassis ground fixed alot of problems with ignition control and the handheld dieing randomly. The wiring harness DOES NOT have an independent ground wire to the computer. Kinda lame.

[John_Kunkel]

How do you go about updating the firmware?

[68CoronetRT]

How do you go about updating the firmware?

You call them and ask for it.  

Not trying to be a smart ass!  

They email it to you and then you do a few things on your desktop with the handheld. It takes like 5-10 mins. I can post the steps if you want.

Sounds like they added features with this update to help with filters and stuff. Cant hurt to keep things up to date.

[igozumn]

I would have someone slowly turn the ignition key to start, and back to run, while you hold a test light to this white wire. It should stay hot until you turn the switch back off. If it flickers between start and run, it will cause the engine to start, and run as long as the switch is in "start", and die when the switch goes back to "run".

Before I started my Fitech install, I grabbed an old switch and hooked up an ohmmeter to test where the break was between run and start.  (And there was a break)  It would be interesting to know, of allllllll the various vehicles this system has been installed on (chevy, ford, amc, mopar, etc), whether their switches have a break or whether there is an overlap of start and run.  I decided for now, that I'd just put a little switch into the old choke cable bracket and hit it with the key in run.  Haven't had starting issues yet.  But there is a rather ugly switch.  But you could hide it.  Seems like he may have found his issue, so only posting this for others that come along and question the issue with the break between start and run and haven't put an upgraded ignition box and eliminated the ballast.

[68CoronetRT]

Played with it some more tonight. Same thing. Fire and then wont get up and go. Was watching the battery voltage gauge and it's dipping down to like 9volts under cranking. This could very well be why it wont start running.

Calling Bryce in the AM again. See what happens.

Kind of thinking the white wire might be the problem. I can try hooking that straight to battery power for testing purposes right? Its tapped off the MSD switched power which maybe it's drawing too much voltage? hmm

[BLK 68 R/T]

So you have the 6al box and msd distributor currently installed correct? If so I don't think the white wire from the ignition box should be hooked to anything. Heavy red to battery, heavy black to ground, small orange to + coil, small black to -coil, red to power in start/run position, and grey to tach if used, violet and green to dizzy. I think the white wire being hooked up is acting as a kill switch by being grounded in the run position.

[JR]

Just to clarify, I was referring to the white wire in the FiTech harness that is tied to the ignition switch.

[68CoronetRT]

Right. White wire which is Fitechs switched power is stacked on top of the MSDs 6al switched power. In fuel only everything is happy and runs great. Switch the wires around for ignition control and it acts like the white wire for Fitech is getting power while cranking but nothing when returning back to run position, car fires, release the key and it dies. Seems like low voltage. going to try moving the switched power and if that doesn't work then wiring it to a switch directly to the battery.