Delusional Body Shop Customers

[Patronus]

Kinda just jumping in here, but there's a big difference between a "paint job" and a complete body working. As in every radius, every gap, every facet, every wrinkle, every etc. A scratch n' shoot is nothing. Some cars take years of body work. Sometimes years and years.

[Todd Wilson]

There are shops out there that do not want to do resto work. They only want to do the daily driver repairs.   Also some shops have a reputation that they want to keep and they simply do not or wont paint a car unless they can do all the work involved.  Some shops and private paint and body people I know only will do a high end job and that's it.  They don't want to spray 3000$ worth of paint on some car and have it look ok or soso with some flaws and then have the car owner say so and so painted my car to various people. It gives a bad reputation out to those that are doing high end restoration work.


Todd

[Brock Lee]

Many of the shops that are properly set up and experienced are choosing to do insurance work. Getting them to work on an old car, especially one where they have to tweak existing panels versus replacing with freshly stamped parts, is like pulling teeth. They are more than happy to fix bumpers all day than take on an old car that requires more hands on labor and ends up not bringing in the same amount of cash for that labor as the insurance work.

[el dub]

Have you ever noticed the paint jobs on the lowriders our border brothers ride around in. They are not painted in custom shops. They cant afford it so go look to where they get their paint jobs. There are decent priced paint jobs out there.
  If your doing a full on resto and want a perfect paint job you will pay more for that. And you will probably get what you paid for. But then you wont be able to drive your car around.

[myk]

Good point.  Say what you will about the Lowrider crowd but some of the paint and body work on those cars is so intricate and detailed yet many of them didn't pay tens of thousands like you would think they would, based on this thread.  I'd be curious to see how long the paint holds up, though...

[Brock Lee]

Um, you think lowriders are cheap? Price out a hydraulic setup sometime.

The Cholo's have the right idea with this. They have lowrider communities. Within these communities are painters, metal workers, upholsterers, mechanics, etc. They will barter with others within the communities to get stuff done. I knew a body shop owner that allowed one of his employees to use the shop at night in trade for off the clock labor. Quite a few lowriders were painted in that shop that I had seen. All at night, off the books.

[myk]

Um, you think lowriders are cheap? Price out a hydraulic setup sometime.

The Cholo's have the right idea with this. They have lowrider communities. Within these communities are painters, metal workers, upholsterers, mechanics, etc. They will barter with others within the communities to get stuff done. I knew a body shop owner that allowed one of his employees to use the shop at night in trade for off the clock labor. Quite a few lowriders were painted in that shop that I had seen. All at night, off the books.

Never said anything about their cars, I was talking about their paint and bodywork; they're not paying Hemi concourse de 'elegance prices.  AND.....just like their north of the border counterparts they're running a similar operation: they charge as much as they feel like charging based on their own assessment of the work involved.  Body and paint isn't officially regulated so it's a game of "whatever."

[Lord Warlock]

It seems paint jobs have skyrocketed in price over the past 20 years.  I remember having basic full car paint jobs with no color change, just respray that cost me 1500 back in the late 80s, and it was pretty good, looked great to the casual observer, wouldn't win any pro shows though.  Then in the mid 90s had my wife's car painted for 1200 at a friends shop who did it under the table after hours, liked it so much I paid him 2500 to do my dodge stealth after someone backed into my nose.  In the late 90s I no longer had the option of the shop that did it previously, and took it around for estimates and got several estimates between 5k and 8k for a full respray.  This is when I started balking on figuring out how to pay for the paint job on my charger. 

In 2003, I decided to use my stealth as a canvas and taught myself how to paint cars over a 10 year time frame, got pretty good at it, enough so that neighbors kept asking me to do their cars, but I learned there is no such thing as a cheap paint job when doing it for other people, I repainted the hood roof and trunk of a neighbors camry for about 500 bucks as a favor for a neighbor, didn't come close to breaking even on time spent.  I easily spent 100 hours color sanding and buffing the paint back out so he would be pleased with the job.  Probably a good thing, since he is STILL a neighbor and we still get along, AND he still has that ugly camry in his garage, doesn't use it, but its still there, and the paint is still holding up 10 years later.

When I finally started painting my charger, I stripped the body to bare metal to make sure there was no rot underneath (had original paint on it back then) and did find previous body work on the front fender that I never knew was there before.  Had front and rear glass removed, took out the grill, and all trim, fixed the body imperfections that were obvious to me, and eventually sprayed it with single stage polyurethane enamel .  Problem I had was after spending a decade getting decent at painting, and buffing paint out as I can't stand seeing orange peel I somehow had become so anal about paint work that I wasn't satisfied with just coating the car, it had to look great, and the one spot on the fender that had been repaired in the 70s I never could get a wave free result on it, it would look great to 99% of the observers, but there would always be that one guy that would comment and drive me nuts so I wasted almost 4 years on that one fender, redoing it over and over, would look great during primer but when I did the color/clear stage slight waves would appear that I couldn't see when in primer, or with guide coats.  I took the fender off, and worked on just it for a while, and even contemplated replacing it with AMD metal, but eventually came to the conclusion that perfection wasn't worth delaying the completion of the car any longer, and would take it to a real shop to redo after I finished the rest. 

Now the car is painted, looks very good even to me, but is still far from perfect, but if  I don't start enjoying the car I never will get to enjoy it again.  Think I've come to the conclusion that 99.9% won't care if the car has minor paint imperfections, the body is straight, no dents no dings and would look great from 3 feet away.  I don't even intend to enter it in any shows, just use it as a cruiser.  If I tallied all the hours I worked on paint on this car, it'd easily cross 400 to 500 hours.  And I still have some cutting and buffing to do once the car drives out under its own power again. 

Don't sweat spending a good amount on a quality paint job, expect 5k to 8k as a minimum, for a shop trying to earn its chops, and 10-15k for a restoration shop.  If you happen to have a friend who has his own shop, you may squeak out a sub 5k job, but these are getting much harder to find these days.

[GreenMachine]

Are these prices for a completely assembled car? Or does it even matter.

I would never take a classic car to be painted without removing the trim, bumpers, grill, side markers, door handles, door sills, locks, etc. myself. I took a car that I just wanted as a cheap driver to a shop with most everything removed except lights. I've heard a lot of people say the body shop lost parts of their car, so I don't want to give them anything they would have to remove and potentially lose. They still lost my fender tag, I had taken a screw out and bent it up so they could paint both sides like the factory did, but forgot to explain that to them. They also filled in the hole where the pentastar goes. I'd hate to think what else would be missing or screwed up if I didn't remove most everything myself.

I paid for supplies (with their shop discount) and $1,800 labor. Total was around $2,800, the paint was PPG Omni. The labor also included replacing the lower quarter behind the left rear wheel well, some large hail dents (one baseball size), and some small dents and dings.

The quality was more than what I expected, however they missed a couple of small hail dents, a small spot on the roof didn't get full color, and a drip on the drivers fender. This was about 5 years ago.

When my Charger is ready to go to the paint shop, the only thing that will be on the bare shell will be doors, fenders, hood, and trunk lid.

[Lord Warlock]

The more you leave on, the bigger the chances that something will go missing or get painted over that shouldn't be.  Best to remove it all ahead of time and just let them paint the body shell if you can.  Unfortunately, not many of us plan on disassembling a car completely before painting.  Yes of course remove emblems, lights, reflectors etc.  But even I didn't remove the doors and hood to paint separately as I would expect if I was having a 10k paint job done.  

Spending 1k on materials is pretty cheap, I almost always end up spending more than  that on primer, Base coats, clears, reducers, activators, sand papers, buffing wheels etc.  

[timmycharger]

I have nothing but respect to those who do bodywork for a living, it is truly an art.   I came to the conclusion years ago that I could not afford to have someone do the bodywork and paint on my Charger so I went the do it yourself route. Yes I made mistakes and yes there were things I wish I did differently, but if you have the space to do it and the patience, I beleive its possible to tackle.

I did mine in stages, welding panels, rust repair, then painting jams, engine bay and trunk, and now Ive got my winter all planned out to finish the final bodywork and spray it in my garage in the spring/early summer.

I live in Massachusetts and I got 3 quotes on my car a few years ago and they ranged from 8 -15k, with all the rust repair done by me. I didnt think it was too outrageous as in the late 90's my brother paid about 7k for the paint on his Dart with some bodywork.

Im not delusional about body shop prices or expectations, I just dont have the money to spend to have someone else handle it.  Im probably looking at an easy 100hrs + over this winter to get the body as straight as I can, but im up for the challenge!!!

[Mike DC]

It seems paint jobs have skyrocketed in price over the past 20 years.

The materials skyrocketed.  

The labor prices didn't skyrocket but they went up some, particularly for skilled people.  The regular body shop industry no longer creates a steady supply of guys familiar with muscle-era vehicles and skilled at fixing (rather than swapping) parts.  It's not their fault they live in different times but it's a factor for us now.

The amount of work the average muscle car needs has skyrocketed.  Rustier cars getting fixed, more repro panels & previous bad repairs to cope with, etc.  

Our expectations for the finished product went up too.  

[Kern Dog]

"Now the car is painted, looks very good even to me, but is still far from perfect, but if  I don't start enjoying the car I never will get to enjoy it again.  Think I've come to the conclusion that 99.9% won't care if the car has minor paint imperfections, the body is straight, no dents no dings and would look great from 3 feet away".


Well put. You just enjoy the car and to heck with what some a-hole jerk has to say about it.

[charge69]

Well 99.9% of the people probably would not even see the paint imperfections and those that do, they are looking too close at your car! Anyone that looks that close at your car must have an "agenda" that starts with "I wish I had a Charger!" 

Get someone to help you with the mechanicals left to do and get out and enjoy your Charger!  It is beautiful and you need to be driving it!

[daveco]

I am beginning to understand why the Rat Rod look has become popular.

[myk]

Well 99.9% of the people probably would not even see the paint imperfections and those that do, they are looking too close at your car! Anyone that looks that close at your car must have an "agenda" that starts with "I wish I had a Charger!" 

Get someone to help you with the mechanicals left to do and get out and enjoy your Charger!  It is beautiful and you need to be driving it!

Excellent point there.  Most of the people that see my car can't stop telling me how perfect it is, especially the paint!  But from three feet away or so I can already see the glaring imperfections...

[ws23rt]

I'm very much an amateur car painter.  I painted two cars in my garage and was learning every step of the way.
What this experience gave me were two eye openers.
1. I understand the value of experience.
2. My eye is now tuned into things most would seldom see in a paint job unless they were pointed out.

When I go to car shows or local gatherings for the most part the cars have 5' paint jobs to me. I suspect the general public may think them as being 2' paint jobs. If something catches my eye as exceptional it draws me in (out of curiosity) to 1'--Any closer and I have to put on reading glasses-- At this point I am looking close in admiration of the paint with a different eye (perhaps) than the general public.

I'm sure that no matter how good a paint job is, the painter knows where the flaws are and why.

A delusional customer would be one that thinks flawless is obtainable and may argue about a perfect area and ask why every sq inch is not the same.

I recall waiting to talk to a body shop guy in the 70's   He was trying to take care of a customer ahead of me with a one year old Cadillac. They were on their knees with different kind of lighting from different angles trying to see something the customer wanted fixed.  I was close by watching this and could see nothing wrong myself. Eventually the body shop guy said ok --I see it now--   After that customer left the shop owner (having been aware of my interest) asked me to get closer for my opinion. I honestly could not see anything different than the rest of the car.

I never knew how that story played out but if I was the body shop guy I would be afraid to do anything to that panel.   IMO it's time for the placebo fix.

[Canadian1968]

I'm very much an amateur car painter.  I painted two cars in my garage and was learning every step of the way.
What this experience gave me were two eye openers.
1. I understand the value of experience.
2. My eye is now tuned into things most would seldom see in a paint job unless they were pointed out.

When I go to car shows or local gatherings for the most part the cars have 5' paint jobs to me. I suspect the general public may think them as being 2' paint jobs. If something catches my eye as exceptional it draws me in (out of curiosity) to 1'--Any closer and I have to put on reading glasses-- At this point I am looking close in admiration of the paint with a different eye (perhaps) than the general public.

I'm sure that no matter how good a paint job is, the painter knows where the flaws are and why.



A delusional customer would be one that thinks flawless is obtainable and may argue about a perfect area and ask why every sq inch is not the same.

I recall waiting to talk to a body shop guy in the 70's   He was trying to take care of a customer ahead of me with a one year old Cadillac. They were on their knees with different kind of lighting from different angles trying to see something the customer wanted fixed.  I was close by watching this and could see nothing wrong myself. Eventually the body shop guy said ok --I see it now--   After that customer left the shop owner (having been aware of my interest) asked me to get closer for my opinion. I honestly could not see anything different than the rest of the car.

I never knew how that story played out but if I was the body shop guy I would be afraid to do anything to that panel.   IMO it's time for the placebo fix.

Have to deal with them every day.

I obviously look at cars a bit different myself being a painter. At car shows I will see, runs, fish eyes, buffing marks ect ect. If I am with a friend I point them out sometimes. Then I ask myself why am I looking this close for these imperfections, I am no better than that customer I had last week.......... But what it is, is a reality check for myself, even these " show cars" aren't perfect !.

[hemi-hampton]

"I recall waiting to talk to a body shop guy in the 70's   He was trying to take care of a customer ahead of me with a one year old Cadillac. They were on their knees with different kind of lighting from different angles trying to see something the customer wanted fixed.  I was close by watching this and could see nothing wrong myself. Eventually the body shop guy said ok --I see it now--   After that customer left the shop owner (having been aware of my interest) asked me to get closer for my opinion. I honestly could not see anything different than the rest of the car."


This sounds like all the Customers I get.

[myk]

Dude, orange peel and fish eyes are par for the course for me lol...

[1974dodgecharger]

im  to MAACOO!!!!

[Homerr]

Show paint jobs are nothing but stress and a pain in the ass to clean if you like to drive your classic.

I will purposely get a mediocre paint job and pay less for it.

[Rolling_Thunder]

When I got my charger painted a few years back I paid I think $5,500...   that was finishing up and smoothing my chopped drip rails, firewall, lizard skin the trunk, undercarriage, strip the old paint to metal, prime, block, prime, block, base, clear, cut, buff.....       

I know things have changed a lot in the past few years, but this shop was also in SoCal - where prices are usually top shelf...       maybe I just got a screaming good deal ?

[ws23rt]

It may be true that we are all delusional about prices and values wherever we turn.

The value of money goes down relentlessly and the next time we are ready to spend for something we just grew accustom to-- we are hit with that fact.

I believe the big picture is competition for quality and price is alive and well. Perhaps now more than the past with better and quicker references. If prices are too high than shopping is not over with.

(Whenever I rant or otherwise speak on something like this it is a way to talk to myself as I type or speak. We need to listen to our instincts and question where the questions come from.)

I get that those in the business of body work and paint have a clear understanding about delusional customers.  It's up to the consumer as to how they will be recieved and dealt with.

If that is something one feels uncomfortable with then perhaps ask your mom to take your car in for an estimate.