Thoughts about oiling...

[myk]

I've owned this car for 20 years and I've had the same oil pump and pump shaft in it for the whole time.  Now that the car is running better, stronger, harder, I'd like to make sure my oiling stuff is good to go. 

I was considering a high volume pump, possibly a Melling, and noticed that I should replace the oil pump shaft with a hardened one also.  Isn't the pump shaft just a matter of pulling the old shaft out and dropping in a new one?  I've been reading online about people having issues with clocking the shaft, distributor, getting the shaft to seat properly, the shaft bushing, etc.  Also, as I try to imagine replacing the shaft, how does one actually reach into the block to pull and replace the pump shaft?  I've got small hands, though not that small, or is it not as far down as I'm thinking the shaft is?  What if I dropped the shaft into the block lol.

In any case, recommendations on a pump, shaft and replacing said parts would be appreciated.  I know I need different bolts for the high volume pump but that's all I know.  Should I even bother with a high volume pump?  Thanks in advance...

[justcruisin]

The stock pump and intermediate shaft work fine in most applications. If you are pulling higher revs and intend on adding a HV pump you may want to consider a 6 quart or larger sump if you don't have one. I would also use a hardened and pined shaft. I think there is only one choice in manufacture with the stock or HV pump. The HV pump does put more load on your timing gears also - pays to keep a check on ignition timing.

To pull the shaft just put a flat blade screwdriver in the slot where the distributor fits - wind it out of mesh with the cam and then grab it with some long nose pliers. To reinstall you may need to rotate the pump with a priming rod so the shaft goes all the way home. Only problem you will have reinstalling the distributor is if the intermediate shaft hasn't located into the pump.

If you do replace the shaft, check that there is sufficient length for the distributor to bolt down properly. I fitted a 440 source shaft and found my MSD pro billet did not go all the way home, I needed to fit a .030" washer between the distributor and the block.

If the bush hasn't been done for 20 years, chances are it will need to be replaced.

[myk]

Thanks for the fast reply.  I understand what you're saying about winding the shaft out, I'll just have to look at the motor in person.  I'm still debating about installing a high volume pump.  I don't think I would need a bigger oil pan but I would want to install it anyway.  If it's too much commotion to get the high volume pump I'll just stick with the standard flow.  What brand are you recommending for the pump?  As for the pan, I keep reading about a "Hemi" pan but what specific brand, model and capacity of pan should I be looking for?  Does anyone know if headers might prove a clearance issue?

As for installing the pump, I've read here that it's a basic bolt-on procedure, but doesn't the pump have to line up properly with the shaft in the block?  How will I know they've mated properly?  I'm assuming I won't be able to get the pump back on if they don't mate correctly.

Is the shaft bushing an engine-out-of-the car procedure?  I've read a lot of threads about people having difficulty with that as well.

[BSB67]

I'll take your old pump.

[myk]

Yeah I've read that you take those pumps in.  Why is that? 

[John_Kunkel]

If your current oil pressure is satisfactory throughout the rpm range there's no reason to change to a HV pump. The HP shaft is always a good idea, it's not about hardness (they're all the same) but it is about the profile at the hex end of the shaft.

The bushing isn't usually a high wear item (small diameter shaft, reduced rpm). Replacing it in situ requires dedicated tools so, unless it's obviously no good, leave it alone.

[firefighter3931]

Myk,

If the oil pressure is good I'd leave it alone for now. HV pumps work good on hot street/strip builds with looser bearing clearances but for mild street builds the std pump is usually fine. The one thing that you could do is increase the capacity by installing the street hemi oilpan/pickup along with a windage tray. The Hemi pan fits fine in the 2nd gen chassis and increases the capacity by two quarts. 

Mancini carries the pan/pickup package at a reasonable price. The street hemi reproduction pan has very good baffling for oil control under spirited driving conditions. 

http://www.manciniracing.com/ststheoilpa61.html


**If you order this package make sure to specify the 3/8 pickup tube.....unless your block was modified for the 1/2in hemi sized tube.


Ron

[BSB67]

Yeah I've read that you take those pumps in.  Why is that?  

They are usually perfectly fine for any street application as is.  There is some rotor wear, but is inconsequential for just about any application.  Everything else about the oil pump is better than the new Melling.  The pumps are very over designed.  I would say that if anyone has an oil pressure problem with an original pump, it is because the rod or main bearings are tore up, or some other internal leakage/issue.

[68CoronetRT]

My original motor was built and the intermediate shaft broke causing the bottom end to spin a bearing. My new engine build has the hardened shaft.

The hardest part about installing the intermediate shaft if getting the clocked position correct. I would suggest spinning the motor so the flat surface(Where dist inserts) is either up and down or perfectly side to side. That way it's easy to tell if your off one tooth.

Also when doing the oil pump itself, just remove the 4-5 bolts. There will be a couple lengths so write down or remember which goes where. Then what I did was leave the dist/intermediate shaft in and when you push the pump into place you can insert the hex and twist the pump so the shaft never moves from correct position, add your silicone or gasket and bolt it up.

Your local enough, hit me up if you want to do this and I'll help you out!

Also my Mellings unit leaked BRAND NEW from the box. Ended up being a little o ring that was inside the pump. Its a few bolts and it comes apart in two pieces, I'd suggest taking it apart and inspecting the o rings for tears before installing the new pump.

[myk]

Thanks for all the feedback guys.  At the moment oil pressure is good, but I figure if something breaks it'll only take a few seconds of oil starvation to take the car off of the streets.  I've had the oil system on there since I bought the car so I was just trying to take the initiative on it.  

They are usually perfectly fine for any street application as is.  There is some rotor wear, but is inconsequential for just about any application.  Everything else about the oil pump is better than the new Melling.  The pumps are very over designed.  I would say that if anyone has an oil pressure problem with an original pump, it is because the rod or main bearings are tore up, or some other internal leakage/issue.

Since newer pumps seem to be not as worthy as the originals, where do I go about buying a pump?  What brand?

*'68, I appreciate your specific instructions.  I will be sure to follow them if I decide to replace the pump and shaft.

*Ron, I will look into the Mancini package.  I certainly hope the pickup tube is 3/8 and not the other.  Should the pickup be modified to take the 1/2" pickup? 

[justcruisin]

Myk, as stated in my previous post - as far as I know there is only one choice of manufacture for stock type oil pumps, be they standard or HV. They may be sold by others and boxed accordingly but unless things have changed the only manufacturer is Melling. Unless you go for a race type pump with external lines or find a new Chrysler pump.

[myk]

Oh ok, that's what you meant.  Thanks for the clarification...

[firefighter3931]

Ron, I will look into the Mancini package.  I certainly hope the pickup tube is 3/8 and not the other.  Should the pickup be modified to take the 1/2" pickup?
 

Myk,

Some guys will request the 1/2 in pickup modification during rebuild depending on the intended use of the motor. Most builds don't need the hemi tube mod but if it's going to be a hot street/strip type build that routinely sees 7000rpm....it's not a bad idea. This upgrade is usually done in conjunction with a HV pump and larger capacity oilpan.

I really like the hemi pan ; larger capacity, excellent baffling for oil control and zero ground clearance issues to worry about. The hemi pan sits flush with the bottom of the K-frame 


Ron

[myk]

Ron, I will look into the Mancini package.  I certainly hope the pickup tube is 3/8 and not the other.  Should the pickup be modified to take the 1/2" pickup?
 

Myk,

Some guys will request the 1/2 in pickup modification during rebuild depending on the intended use of the motor. Most builds don't need the hemi tube mod but if it's going to be a hot street/strip type build that routinely sees 7000rpm....it's not a bad idea. This upgrade is usually done in conjunction with a HV pump and larger capacity oilpan.

I really like the hemi pan ; larger capacity, excellent baffling for oil control and zero ground clearance issues to worry about. The hemi pan sits flush with the bottom of the K-frame  


Ron

That's good to hear.  I haven't had a chance to look under the car yet, but my concern is clearance from the center link, headers and whatever else is lurking under there.  BUT, if the Hemi pan is an OEM styled part then it should fit perfectly, I think.  But wait...if more capacity is better, shouldn't I look into Mancini's 8 quart pan finished in zinc!   

[69wannabe]

The 8 quart pan's stick down way below the K frame and will give you minimal ground clearance and doesn't look good to me either. The hemi pan Ron suggested will increase your oil capacity without any ground clearance issues and will be a basic bolt on and go project. I swapped one out for my buddy from a regular pan to the hemi pan and pick up tube with a new windage tray one saturday morning and was driving it to town by lunch time. Took me about 3 to four hours to do the whole job. You will need 2 oil pan gaskets if you use a windage tray. If you purchase a new windage tray it comes with 2 gaskets I think, been awhile since I have bought one.

[Kern Dog]

Clearance?
This is what mine looks like with a 6 quart HEMI pan. I did add that little skidplate to the K member though.

[Kern Dog]

X

[A383Wing]

do you plan on opening up all the oil passages inside the engine when you install a HV pump??

NO??

Then either leave the pump you have on there alone or just put a stock new pump on...the HV pump on a stock motor is waste of money...my opinion

[Kern Dog]

C

[myk]

The 8 quart pan's stick down way below the K frame and will give you minimal ground clearance and doesn't look good to me either. The hemi pan Ron suggested will increase your oil capacity without any ground clearance issues and will be a basic bolt on and go project. I swapped one out for my buddy from a regular pan to the hemi pan and pick up tube with a new windage tray one saturday morning and was driving it to town by lunch time. Took me about 3 to four hours to do the whole job. You will need 2 oil pan gaskets if you use a windage tray. If you purchase a new windage tray it comes with 2 gaskets I think, been awhile since I have bought one.

Thanks to Kern I can see that with the Hemi pan I should have no clearance issues, although I hear swapping the pickup is a PITA.  I'll also have to buy a tool to knock out my center link. 

As for the oil pump, I guess the HV is excessive, but I figure so is the rest of the car...

[fy469rtse]

Myk, the old saying is
If it ain't broke don't fix it ,
After you get center steering linkages off
You can get the pan off in the car
Take lower inspection cover off the trans , the cover over the opening , this gives you just enough room to sneak pan back that touch more,
Stock pan is ok in yours, even better if you have a 440 or later pan with the splash trays in them , stops the oil sloshing to the back of pan on hard accelerations

[heyoldguy]

I've never had a problem with the HV pump suckng the stock 4qt oil pan dry even at 7,000 rpm. Just me I guess.

[BSB67]

I've never had a problem with the HV pump suckng the stock 4qt oil pan dry even at 7,000 rpm. Just me I guess.

A HV pump does not move one more drop of oil from the oil pan than a standard volume pump, at the same psi in the same motor at the same rpm.

Said differently, A HV pump with 70 psi at 7000 rpm is not pumping any more oil from the oil plan/to the motor, than a standard volume pump at 70 psi 7000 rpm in the same motor.

It is possible to pump an oil pan dry, but likely, it would not be because it has a HV pump

[myk]

I beleive that statement, although I don't understand it. 

At this point I think I'm going to leave the pump and shaft alone.  My PSI is at a rock solid 48-55 during start up, idle, all the way to 3K RPM.  I'm more concerned with capacity at this point, so the Hemi pan is what I'm about to buy and install...

[68charger440]

I've never had a problem with the HV pump suckng the stock 4qt oil pan dry even at 7,000 rpm. Just me I guess.

A HV pump does not move one more drop of oil from the oil pan than a standard volume pump, at the same psi in the same motor at the same rpm.

Said differently, A HV pump with 70 psi at 7000 rpm is not pumping any more oil from the oil plan/to the motor, than a standard volume pump at 70 psi 7000 rpm in the same motor.

It is possible to pump an oil pan dry, but likely, it would not be because it has a HV pump

Can you explain it a little more...  I can be a little thick sometimes.  What does the HV pump do differently or is it just a marketing thing?  Wouldn't a HV pump put out more volume and show up as higher pressure at the same rpm?