Here we go again, another school shooting.

[XH29N0G]

I also don't mind having a daily post of who was shot because it keeps us thinking about it.

Meh.  

I don't watch or read daily newsmuch at all anymore.  This is why.  I'm tired of the idea that a daily intake of random negative stuff equals keeping myself informed about the world.  That's most of what daily news is.  There is nothing newsworthy about much of the stuff except that it's negative or threatening in some way.  



"Two people were shot early this morning in an apartment building on the 3800 block of Jefferson Avenue"?  Okay.  But the random day-starter could just as easily be "Approximately 7000 students got A's on their mid-term tests given throughout the school district last week."  Neither one is the slightest bit unusual.  Neither one has much direct relevance to the vast majority of viewers.   

The first story gets more press.  But I fail to see why it's more important for me to hear that one.  Every.  Single.  Day.  Perpetually.  

Mike, I guess I should clarify and accept the fact that you don't want to be reminded.  I don't mind being reminded because I used to have a romantic view of firearms and what they were for.  

[68charger440]

There has to be a reasonable debate rather than two entrenched camps doing nothing.  When the second amendment was written there was no sportsmen class of shooters.  Times change and things can be reevaluated.  

I agree that there needs to be a reasonable debate.  The far right and far left are both too extreme.  I have to disagree on the sportsman class comment though.  There has been a well documented sportsman class for nearly as long as firearms have existed.

[ITSA426]

I did not realize that but I guess there have been shooting matches for as long as there has been shooting. 

[redmist]

I did not realize that but I guess there have been shooting matches for as long as there has been shooting. 

and today our government uses that to classify firearms as "Sporting, and Non-Sporting" in order to regulate them.

Guess what? All those AR-15's that are being used in the largest sporting segment of firearms these days are still labeled as "non-sporting."  They are also still labeled as "not in common use." by our Government. Remember, we as gun owners are dealing with a Government that has deemed a shoe lace an automatic weapon. they are also regulating now how you HOLD a firearm via the "Sig-Brace" and the likes. think about that for a minute... They are literally telling you how you can legally HOLD a firearm. We as firearms owners are getting real tired of it. These laws do NOTHING to prevent gun violence. ZERO!  Thinking about shooting up a school???  Well you better make sure you don't shoulder your Sig-Brace!  Looking to shoot up a church??? Better make sure you don't put a forward grip on your pistol, or now it's an AOW under the NFA and you are a felon! Thinking about shooting up a train station?? You better not put an after market stock on that SKS, or you fall under the manufacturing clause of 922R and must have at least 6 other US made compliant parts in the gun, or you are a felon! Want to take the stock off your AK-47 to make it more convenient when you shoot up a movie theater.... well that's perfectly legal.    Want to take your AK-47 and put a stock on it to make it safer to shoot? Nope!!!! It's now an SBR under the NFA and you are a felon! Want to put a can launcher under your rifle so you can shoot training dummies for your dog? Nope!! It's now a destructive device under the NFA and you are a felon. Tired of all your guns and you figure you just want to cut them up and give them to your friend to make art?? Better follow the ATF's strict De-milling standards or the parts are still considered a firearm. You are now a Felon if they crossed state lines.

I could go on and on for days...

A barrel that is 15.98" makes you a felon, A barrel that is 16.01 inches and you are good to go as far as practicing your 2nd Amendment rights. We are tired of giving away miles of freedom, as our government regulates us by the inch.


We as gun owners are tired of it, and millions of good people are already Felons, they just don't know it. Every bubba who has put an aftermarket stock on an imported gun is a felon, they just don't know it yet.





Honestly if people understood 1/100th of the ridiculous firearms laws on the books they would be pissed as well.

[redmist]

NRA Supported bill.
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/cortneyobrien/2015/08/05/john-cornyns-new-mental-health-bill-gets-support-from-nra-n2035163

NRA Supported.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/21/the-nra-wants-an-active-mental-illness-database-thirty-eight-states-have-that-now/

More NRA Supported mental health initiatives.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2014/05/26/nra-supported-law-to-improve-mental-health-records-access-for-nics-in-2007-funding-not-appropriated/

They also supported:

National Firearms Act   1934      
Federal Firearms Act   1938      
Gun Control Act   1968   No   
Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act   2005      
Disaster Recovery Personal Protection Act   2006      


And some of these were the most devastating legislation for gun owners to date.


We have a WHOLE lotta laws on the books!  LOTS!

Here is the NFA handbook if you want to start reading about what I deal with each day. It's only 220 pages, and only covers NFA firearms alone. You can read up on how to pay your $200 tax to the Government so you can then have your 2nd Amendment rights.

https://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8.pdf

[redmist]

Just to prove how silly our laws are on the books, One of the guns below will land you in 10 year pound you in the butt prison... The rest are 100% legal without going through NFA.

[ws23rt]

I did not realize that but I guess there have been shooting matches for as long as there has been shooting.  

and today our government uses that to classify firearms as "Sporting, and Non-Sporting" in order to regulate them.

Guess what? All those AR-15's that are being used in the largest sporting segment of firearms these days are still labeled as "non-sporting."  They are also still labeled as "not in common use." by our Government. Remember, we as gun owners are dealing with a Government that has deemed a shoe lace an automatic weapon. they are also regulating now how you HOLD a firearm via the "Sig-Brace" and the likes. think about that for a minute... They are literally telling you how you can legally HOLD a firearm. We as firearms owners are getting real tired of it. These laws do NOTHING to prevent gun violence. ZERO!  Thinking about shooting up a school???  Well you better make sure you don't shoulder your Sig-Brace!  Looking to shoot up a church??? Better make sure you don't put a forward grip on your pistol, or now it's an AOW under the NFA and you are a felon! Thinking about shooting up a train station?? You better not put an after market stock on that SKS, or you fall under the manufacturing clause of 922R and must have at least 6 other US made compliant parts in the gun, or you are a felon! Want to take the stock off your AK-47 to make it more convenient when you shoot up a movie theater.... well that's perfectly legal.    Want to take your AK-47 and put a stock on it to make it safer to shoot? Nope!!!! It's now an SBR under the NFA and you are a felon! Want to put a can launcher under your rifle so you can shoot training dummies for your dog? Nope!! It's now a destructive device under the NFA and you are a felon. Tired of all your guns and you figure you just want to cut them up and give them to your friend to make art?? Better follow the ATF's strict De-milling standards or the parts are still considered a firearm. You are now a Felon if they crossed state lines.

I could go on and on for days...

A barrel that is 15.98" makes you a felon, A barrel that is 16.01 inches and you are good to go as far as practicing your 2nd Amendment rights. We are tired of giving away miles of freedom, as our government regulates us by the inch.


We as gun owners are tired of it, and millions of good people are already Felons, they just don't know it. Every bubba who has put an aftermarket stock on an imported gun is a felon, they just don't know it yet.





Honestly if people understood 1/100th of the ridiculous firearms laws on the books they would be pissed as well.

You speak well about how making laws is not a solution for complex problems.
Sadly our leaders and law makers just do the minimum their office or post requires of them.

Is it a fantasy to find, and elect leaders that excel?

From an early age in the sixty's I concluded that the folks we need in charge are not the type's that would be willing to run through the muck of politics. They have no time for 90% of their time being wasted.  Life is short enough as it is.

We are left with what we have and the laws that are made are continuing to diminish in value as they grow in number and complexity.

A real fact is we will and do as we wish with consideration of the risk of offending some law ---(that we might need to hire a lawyer to even know about)--
BTW it is an obligation of a citizen to know and understand the law. (If a law was passed yesterday you are obliged to know about it).

If laws and law making protocol remain as it is--IMO we are moved to ignore more and more laws.  And at a lower and lower risk.----I see this as a trend.

I remember hearing about lawmaking as being a fun pastime for some.--Example It was (and still may be) against the law (in some southern state) for two trains approaching on the same track to pass. This may be funny (and is) but it speaks to a real problem we have with those we hire to protect us.

[68charger440]

9% approval for Congress.  They listen to special interest bribes not the people. That says it all!  This once great country is on the brink of mediocrity or worse.

[skip68]

Like I always say, you have to vote for the person you think is telling the MOST truth.   Pretty sad isn't it?   

[Mike DC]

I think the extreme complexity of modern life & technology has a lot to do with our problems.  There is simply way too much for any one person to know.  


Voters don't understand the issues that we expect our govt to handle.  We end up voting on a few celebrity figureheads at the top of the govt pyramid in hopes that they will somehow end up making better decisions that we would make ourselves by flipping a coin.    It has gotten so bad we don't even know what is legal or illegal already when we demand action.


The govt is doing what all out-of-control govts do - just write laws against everything.  Then they can selectively enforce laws in corrupt ways.  Stealing $100 will get you more jail time than stealing $100 million.  It's already illegal to be lower class and financially poor, for all intents & purposes.     

[ITSA426]

All of this information and no one can tell me why background checks for firearms purchase is a bad idea.  Why should people determined to be homicidal or violent have access to firearms?  If I should have unfettered access to firearms because of my constitutional right, why should my right to vote be restricted by anything such as background checks?

I'm just trying to find someone to answer these questions without boiling over.

[Mike DC]

    
We have background checks.  Are they enforced?  Politicians would rather write a new law than fund an existing law any day of the week.  

What do they screen for?  We can't predict what people will do with a ton of accuracy.  



A criminal record is an suggestion of trouble.  But our system isn't exactly fair, either.  White people use drugs at the same rates as minorities but don't get anywhere near the jailing for it.  Income frequently determines justice.  Having a felony on your record is proof you are potentially dangerous in theory but not always in reality.  The justice system is not reliable and it pushes plea deals for anyone without money to fight back.  That puts convictions on a lot of poor people's records.

This matters because the same people getting the worst legal justice can be the most in need of firearms for protection.  In some neighborhoods, asking "why would you want to carry a gun?" is like asking "why would you want to lock your house & car doors?"  They aren't doing it by choice.  They are doing it to avoid being only person on the block without it.    




I don't fancy myself to have all the answers.  I am just pointing out problems with mainstream thinking on these matters.  

[68charger440]

All of this information and no one can tell me why background checks for firearms purchase is a bad idea.  Why should people determined to be homicidal or violent have access to firearms?  If I should have unfettered access to firearms because of my constitutional right, why should my right to vote be restricted by anything such as background checks?

I'm just trying to find someone to answer these questions without boiling over.

Let me take a stab at an answer for you.
The reason so many are opposed to background checks is because of what happened in the eastern block nations before and during the cold war.  Once the government had a list of who had firearms through gun registration (read background checks)  it became easy to know exactly where to go to confiscate them all leaving the people helpless to fight against an out of control tyrannical government.  Read up on the Hungarian revolution when they tried to fight the Communists with pitchforks because their guns were confiscated.  They were slaughtered without guns and easily defeated.  It is not that the pro gun people want criminals and mentally unbalanced people to have firearms, it is that they don't want to loose their ability to fight back against a tyrannical government should one arise. If you can find a way to prevent the criminals and mentally ill from having guns without leaving a trail for the govt to take the guns from the rest of the people there would not be a problem, but that is a tall order. The fact that some people who shouldn't have guns can then have them is not the goal, it is an unintended consequence of keeping that ability to protect yourselves and your country without giving the enemy the map to defeat you.

[el dub]

All states have background checks. Calif has a fairly strong one but a lot of other states don't. Maybe we need federal guidelines to have only one background check that applies to all the states. People that are homicidal or violent wont get a gun legally. But they can get one illegally fairly easy if they have the money.

[68charger440]

I don't normally post into these topics but they are getting way too common.  I heard on the radio today, that more than 87,000 Americans have died by gunfire since the Sandy Hook shootings.  My son said there have been more than 200 shootings on school grounds so far this year.  If all that is true I can understand why people are calling for something to be done.  It's hard to expect people to be reasonable when opinions are so entrenched.

Be careful when using statistics.  I had a statistics professor in college that took both sides of this very subject, and depending on which side he gave you the statistical backup to read, the majority of the class agreed with the side of the debate they were given the statistics for.  In your case above you say 87000 Americans have died from gunfire since Sandy Hook.  You don't say that 57.7% of those were suicides and that if not guns then they would overdose, jump off a bridge, or slit their wrists etc.  Only 38.5 were from homicide while the rest were accidents.  Of those that were homicides most were illegal guns to begin with so outlawing guns would NOT change that stat much since the guns used were illegal to begin with.
Here are some facts to backup what I say from the CDC

The following information is for 2009 and comes from a web page on the Centers for Disease Control site (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/...), which is probably as unbiased an authority as you're going to find:

Mortality

All   injury deaths
Number of   deaths: 177,154
Deaths per 100,000 population: 57.7
Motor vehicle traffic deaths
Number of deaths: 34,485
Deaths per 100,000 population: 11.2
All   poisoning deaths
Number of deaths: 41,592
Deaths per   100,000 population: 13.5
All   firearm deaths
Number of   deaths: 31,347
Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.2

I was surprised to find that there were more deaths due to poisoning than from motor vehicles or firearms. There is a more detailed report (127 pages) with 2008 statistics at http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvs.... Here is an excerpt from that report:

Firearm—In 2008, 31,593 persons died from firearm injuries in the United States (Tables 18 and 19), accounting for 17.4 percent of all injury deaths that year. The two major component causes of all firearm injury deaths in 2008 were suicide at 57.7 percent and homicide at 38.5 percent. Even though the year-to-year observed difference in age-adjusted death rate for firearm injury (all intents) was not statistically significant, notable changes took place in firearm mortality according to intent: The age-adjusted death rate for firearm suicide increased by 3.6 percent from 2007, while the death rate for firearm homicide decreased by 4.8 percent in 2008 from 2007.
Some of the above is from Tom Dees a CJ professor via Quora

[skip68]

My opinion is we're way past the point of talking about gun control and making that the main focus point.    To me it's a secondary issue or even third.   Mental health and criminal minds are the main issue that needs the attention focused on.  I'm not interested in the guns, bombs, knives, baseball bats or ropes and could care less.  I'm more interested and concerned with the sick son of a bitch that's going to use them.   Go to the source.  Quit focusing on the methods or tools these asshats use and find better ways, "realistic ways" of detecting, reporting and or preventing them from harm.  
Just seems like we're really behind and slow with understanding what the real problem is.  Not all of us, just some.   Some can argue back and forth about gun control till the end of time.  That's been going on for decades and decades.   Meanwhile, killers have been killing with guns, bombs and so forth ever since.  

We make cars harder to steal and yet the thieves keep stealing them and find new ways to steal.   We've made guns harder to legally obtain than they were years ago and yet there's still killings.  Now, if we as a nation banished all cars there would be no more car thefts.  However, if we banished all guns there would still be killings by other means or homemade guns.    Hello.  

If I was a killer I'd be laughing at the anti gun people.   In fact, I'd be laughing at both sides.   Because both sides are more concerned with my methods or tools than they are at trying to find me or others like me.  
Very very sad my fellow Americans.   Wake up.    

[skip68]

Another thing.  Aren't bombs illegal?  Haven't they always been illegal?  Then how come do we still have bombings?    Guns are just easier is all.  
Trust me, I could make my own gun if for some reason all the guns in the U.S. were taken away.   In fact, I'll bet we have several members here that can make their own guns also.   In fact, I don't even need to make one. I can buy the pieces I need over the internet and just assemble it.
Just how easy do you think it would be for these killers that are obsessed with guns to build one?   No problem at all.   It's just an endless argument with no solution.  
I'm all for background checks and doing the best we can responsibly. But we as a nation need to really get on the same page and put our energy and focus on mental health.  

[68charger440]

find better ways, "realistic ways" of detecting, reporting and or preventing them from harm.  

I think we are on the cusp of these better more realistic ways.  With a camera and GPS on every person's phone and on every street corner the ability to triangulate your location is getting so precise that when a crime is committed they will know almost everyone that was within a distance to have either been involved or be a witness.  Add body cams to all police officers and facial recognition software to the mix and the bad guys will increasingly be caught in short order.  Unfortunately, we then let these thugs out within a couple years to start the cycle all over again.  Some people can never be rehabilitated, and should never be unleashed on the rest of us.  Mental health is certainly a huge factor in all of this and needs to be addressed too.

[John_Kunkel]

I like what Redmist said about the NRA. How many on this forum belong. I doubt hardly any.

I belong and fully support their agenda to fight any and all gun laws. Why? Simply because of my philosophy "Give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile". History proves this.

People on this forum don't even talk about the superbowl. Or the World Series. Or about any sports. So maybe join the NRA to have some common ground on this shooting business.

I never comment on sports because I find them a huge bore. Anti-gunners accuse us gun freaks of suffering from penis envy...I say the same about sports freaks.

Prison is a piece of cake and establishes street cred for criminals.

Oh? Would you volunteer to spend a year in the general population of a prison? I think you'd describe it as hell if you did.

[68charger440]

Prison is a piece of cake and establishes street cred for criminals.

Oh? Would you volunteer to spend a year in the general population of a prison? I think you'd describe it as hell if you did.

[/quote]
I think most of us would describe it as Hell, but the gang bangers don't!  For them it is like visiting family in another city for a time.

[el dub]

If prison was hell nobody would be going back. If you have a lot to lose it may seem like hell. If you have nothing to lose, like most criminals its a hotel.

As far as sports go this is the area for it. Off topic. Still no comments on sports. Not even any super bowl comments or world series comments. nothing.  And all the car people I know at least have an interest in sports. Also an interest in fishing and hunting. Also interested in politics. This is the only forum I know of that doesn't even have a political area. Its good for charger guys but that is it. A lot of people helped me on my dodge but there is more to life than cars.

[68charger440]

If prison was hell nobody would be going back. If you have a lot to lose it may seem like hell. If you have nothing to lose, like most criminals its a hotel.

As far as sports go this is the area for it. Off topic. Still no comments on sports. Not even any super bowl comments or world series comments. nothing.  And all the car people I know at least have an interest in sports. Also an interest in fishing and hunting. Also interested in politics. This is the only forum I know of that doesn't even have a political area. Its good for charger guys but that is it. A lot of people helped me on my dodge but there is more to life than cars.

I would like sports and politics sections also, but from what I have seen on other sites people get mean nasty disrespectful and all sorts of bent out of shape on those subjects.  This site is mostly respectful, and like it that way.  With that said, It might be worth a try to have them.  You could post a request in the site suggestions section. Judging by your signature line you would probably like a philosophy section too..... KISS

[XH29N0G]

I do not know if we actually can get the full picture because big brother is controlling the information we get, but maybe also as it relates to stats for gun violence.

see for instance:  http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2015/01/14/why-the-cdc-still-isnt-researching-gun-violence-despite-the-ban-being-lifted-two-years-ago/  or http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/the-buzz-florida-politics/court-allows-gag-order-to-go-forward-on-doctors-talking-about-guns/2239068 or http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/10/11/health/ap-us-med-gun-research-besieged.html?_r=0

[68charger440]

I'm sure that both sides are spinning the stats to prove their points.  (See my earlier post on statistics where a professor of mine seemingly proved both sides of the debate.)
That is why I always try to dig deeper into the data behind the stats in an attempt to find the truth.  Honestly I am disgusted with both parties.  The truth is a minor inconvenient obstacle for which there is no room at the table and therefore easily brushed aside to make room for their agenda. 

[ITSA426]

Meanwhile one dead and three wounded at Tennessee State University campus shooting during a dice game.