Here we go again, another school shooting.

[68charger440]

Meanwhile one dead and three wounded at Tennessee State University campus shooting during a dice game.

I understand your frustration that we keep seeing this happen over and over again,  but what about the Swedish guy who went on the rampage with a sword the other day.  Should swords be outlawed too, or is the problem not in the tool, but the people that use them?   The solution is not to outlaw anything that can be used to kill someone.  If that is the case then send me you Charger keys so you don't kill someone in a fit of road rage.

[XH29N0G]

With all due respect, my earlier point related to how the CDC/Govt treatment of gun research has stopped data from being collected which is different than spinning data to win an argument or sway opinion. 

[68charger440]

With all due respect, my earlier point related to how the CDC/Govt treatment of gun research has stopped data from being collected which is different than spinning data to win an argument or sway opinion. 

I agree that the defunding of legitimate data collection is wrong and should not be interfered with. The problem I have, and I have this problem with both sides is that all too often the initial scope that the researchers are given has a bias to begin with, like a lawyer leading a witness.  In the link that was posted the republican congress seemed to be pushing the researchers toward a favorable or no conclusion at all by withholding funding, and I have no doubt that the Democrats when in power do the same thing.  People know who is buttering their bread and act accordingly.  The 'spin' is often built into the research grant proposal, and the party in power chooses which grant application to approve.  Legitimate scientific research should have absolutely no politicization, but I don't know how to stop it.  It is another symptom of a very sick system. 

[Mike DC]

Agreed. The politicization of research & science is a very concerning issue.  


Stopping the gathering of data can be a biased move too.  Anything can be.  One time a Florida judge stopped gathering data on votes at a certain time, and it put the governor's brother into the White House.



Prison conditions -

IMO punishment is just not a great deterrent against crime, period.  They used to hang people in public squares, cut off hands, lock people up in torturous conditions, etc.  They still had tons of crime.  IMO probably the most beneficial thing that mass incarceration does today is containing the violent offenders during their worst ages.    

Crime gets fixed with economic changes IMO.  It works better than anything else.    


Also, we seem to think we're doing something smart when we render ex-cons unemployable 2nd class citizens.  We're not.  Ask Europe how well it worked when they punished Germany for decades after WW#1. 

[XH29N0G]

One quick addition:  I don't think the grant/proposal process of most scientist is as agenda driven as the media and politicians may want us to believe.  Maybe gun research is different, but I think I owe it science to add that little bit.

[68charger440]

One quick addition:  I don't think the grant/proposal process of most scientist is as agenda driven as the media and politicians may want us to believe.  Maybe gun research is different, but I think I owe it science to add that little bit.

I think you are right in most cases it is not agenda driven, but when it is, it brings into question all of the research in that area.  Gun control, crime and punnishment, global warming are just a few of the areas that both sides are guilty of 'spinning' the research and results.

[redmist]

With all due respect, my earlier point related to how the CDC/Govt treatment of gun research has stopped data from being collected which is different than spinning data to win an argument or sway opinion. 

I agree that the defunding of legitimate data collection is wrong and should not be interfered with. The problem I have, and I have this problem with both sides is that all too often the initial scope that the researchers are given has a bias to begin with, like a lawyer leading a witness.  In the link that was posted the republican congress seemed to be pushing the researchers toward a favorable or no conclusion at all by withholding funding, and I have no doubt that the Democrats when in power do the same thing.  People know who is buttering their bread and act accordingly.  The 'spin' is often built into the research grant proposal, and the party in power chooses which grant application to approve.  Legitimate scientific research should have absolutely no politicization, but I don't know how to stop it.  It is another symptom of a very sick system. 

They have defunded it, because the CDC has studied it Over and Over and Over and Over and they come to the same conclusion. The CDC has even gone so far as to do studies on NAIL GUNS!

Go to the CDC Website and enter "Guns" in the search box.  Years of reading. 

[redmist]

Meanwhile in Toledo:  TOLEDO (13abc Action News) – A 21 year-old Toledo man with a concealed carry permit turned the tables on an armed robbery suspect early Tuesday morning as he arrived home from work.   

[redmist]

Meanwhile, in DETROIT:  DETROIT - Another robbery victim fights back after he's targeted at a Detroit bus stop. The 23-year-old had officially become a Concealed Pistol License holder a couple of weeks ago and after what happened Sunday night - it was just in time.

[redmist]

Here's the problem with the "Mental Health" part of things. It will get abused beyond all recognition. We are already seeing folks being "Swatted" during video game matches, Others are calling police and telling them that their crazy-X pulled a gun on them. We have women faking rapes.... It would spiral out of control. It would be everyone elses word against yours, and I just don't know how to get around that. Who do you trust? Who determines if you are of good mental health? The doctor? or the lady down the road who you might have an HOA problem with? All it would take is one call... just like all these people having there kids picked up by CPS for being half a block away from home at a playground. 

Not sure how to get around that one.

But meanwhile in france.... Where guns are heavily regulated, vehicles continue their never ending thirst for blood  52 people dead.  http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34613637 The wheels of death continue to claim an ever building pile of bodies. The streets running red with blood.


You get the idea.   

[skip68]

I hear you redmist.   Then can we just accept the fact that bad people exist and bad things happen?   Life is good and bad.  That's just life and there's always going to be an expected amount of loss either by accident or at the hands of others.   

[68charger440]

I hear you redmist.   Then can we just accept the fact that bad people exist and bad things happen?   Life is good and bad.  That's just life and there's always going to be an expected amount of loss either by accident or at the hands of others.   

That's the thing that so many people don't get.  They think that if they save one life then whatever freedoms they take in return is worth it. 
I for one am willing to accept that there will be some loss of life to protect our personal freedoms and rights.

[skip68]

Yes.  I feel that there IS an acceptable amount of loss that we have to acknowledge as just part of life that's always been there.   If anything it's better than it was in the past.    We're not animals or mid evil anymore.  We have evolved very well as humans.  Perhaps more than our own good.   
I for one am NOT willing to give up my freedom of arms for saving my own family on the chance that it may save someone else.   
I make a choice for self preservation knowing that bad people are out there.   For the sheep that choose not to have arms and expect others to save you good luck.   
Just remember who's fault it is when you are against having armed protection at schools "soft targets" and these killers come calling knowing there's nobody there to stop them.   It makes me sick knowing that if this happened at my 13 year old daughters school there's nobody there to protect her.   Nobody to stall or draw the killers fire away from the innocent children.   That's F-ed up.   We have plenty of retired veterans that could provide protection for schools and I'd bet several would do it as volunteers.   

[68charger440]

I would be one of those volunteers!

[skip68]

Thanks.    
Men like you are what we need.  Men that will step forward and keep our schools safe while the rest of the country keeps talking about gun laws and other crap that isn't doing anything to stop this today or what will happen tomorrow.   
I'd bet if we had several volunteers at every school starting tomorrow these school shootings would mysteriously and coincidentally disappear.  I bet there's more than enough veterans that could cover every school with at least 10 or more on constant foot patrol per school.   

They would be ready and lined up tomorrow.   WTF are we waiting for?
Oh, that's right, the anti-gun crowd says that more guns aren't the answer.   Even though several of these killers have said that they choose these places because they can do the most damage with no immediate resistance.    Hello.  WE know why and they're even telling us and yet we do nothing.   Again, WTF?    
If we had a threat from north Korea that they were going to start targeting schools we'd increase security wouldn't we?   Even though we know most likely nothing will happen.  Yet we do know (all of us know) that we will witness more school massacres in the months ahead and we'll do absolutely nothing.   It's embarrassing that we've become this weak as a nation and we won't protect our children.   Very very sad.   

[68charger440]

I volunteer at my grandkids school, and I can tell you that the majority of the teachers would have a cow at the very thought of armed volunteers.  Maybe it is different in other places, but I live in Colorado which is quickly becoming Kalifornia's eastern comrades.

[skip68]

That's sad indeed.   
What if groups of Asians start targeting schools?  Or what if Isis starts targeting schools done by local idiots or any others?    Are we going to keep playing stupid and questioning how and why they got guns?   
WTF difference does that really matter?    They are on a mission to kill and the reason or methods are not important as stopping them.   

The only bad thing that I believe would happen if we did have veterans protecting schools is we'd see more bombings at schools or the targets would change.   They'd start shooting up the malls or parks or other areas that offer less resistance than the schools do.   I fear as long as there are soft targets these shootings will continue.   I guess that everybody needs to start being more vigilant with higher sense of awareness.   

[68charger440]

Only a matter time before an NFL stadium is targeted.

[68charger440]

Unfortunately, I don't want to live in a police state either with machine guns at every corner.  No easy answers here.

[Mike DC]

That's sad indeed.   
What if groups of Asians start targeting schools?  Or what if Isis starts targeting schools done by local idiots or any others?    Are we going to keep playing stupid and questioning how and why they got guns?

Are you arguing that racial profiling can be acceptable?  But profiling or registering gun ownership is not?

[skip68]

No not at all Mike.    I'm just saying if the next few shootings turned out to be Isis supporters with a death to America attitude are we going to still be playing this "how'd he get the gun game"?   The answer is of course we won't.  We'll acknowledge it as a terrorist attack on a higher level and won't blame the guns as much.  We'll then be focused on Isis supporters as we should be.  The sick people and reasoning behind these attacks is what we should be focusing on to effectively help reduce these attacks.  Not the methods they used to carry out their mission.   

[Mike DC]

              
Okay.  I see what you're saying.  Point clarified.

[XH29N0G]

I think the school argument could work in some form.  Would take money and suitable checks.   My son's school has armed officers in it.  My local elementary school has a strong police presence; turns out to be a good way to get a chance to talk to a police chief.   The issue with me is not so much stopping all firearms, but just setting up something that works to keep things under better control.  This is our responsibility as owners and users.  I still think research should be done and funded.  If it is on killing, it is unlikely that it will come out pro gun, but so what, we should be working with the right information and we can argue for balanced discussion.  We have a lot of wealth in this country and a lot of guns.  We don't have a direct and immediate need to kill our neighbors so that happens less frequently.  I don't think the guns correlate with the safety, I think it is that we live in a generally safe country and have guns.  (now you got me using the word gun - which I was taught not to - firearms)

[el dub]

Give everyone a Swedish mini gun and solve all the gun problems.   Just don't try buying one in the US, too dangerous

[skip68]

Makes a nice keychain.    
I don't want to live in a police state either.  I'm also not suggesting that the veteran protection detail carry fully automatic weapons either. 
All I know is if we don't try something like this it's guaranteed to happen again.   What harm could it possibly do to try?    None whatsoever.  I'd feel better knowing that at least my daughter will have a better chance at not becoming a victim with a security team at her school.   
Wouldn't you all agree that it's better than doing nothing?   

Whenever there is a threat, the appropriate solution is to step up security.
My question to any that disagree is this.  What the hell's the matter with you?   These are your children we're talking about.   As a parent you do whatever it takes to protect your children.  You leave no stone uncovered.  In the months ahead we know that more children will be murdered without anyone to protect them whatsoever.   Maybe next time it's your child.   Is that okay with you?     So while you dick around with your gun beliefs and worry about what kind of message it's sending instead of your number 1 priority of insuring your childs safety.  Some predator is planning to murder your baby.   You as a parent discuss me. 

Sorry guys for expressing my feelings on this matter a little harsh.   But Dammit, enoughs enough.