Extreme negative camber

[71 SE3834V]

I posted a pic in the "Anyone using offset uca bushing" thread of my front end with severe negative camber on the drivers side (not so much on the pass. side). http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,119605.new.html#new

Having stated that a couple of shops gave it a look see and Dino has looked it over and no signs of damage have been found that would cause this I figured it's time to post it up.

HPP suggested that possibly A body arms were installed as they (A body arms) are 3/8" longer.
Kern Dog said A body arms are flat on the bottom and curved on both ends.

I don't have the car home for the next few days but found one pic of the drivers side LCA. If zoomed in I can see the letters PD and LR cast on the rear side.
Anybody got a guess as to which one this is?
When I get the car back home I will compare the 2 sides to see if they're the same, look for more numbers and letters and take some more pics now that everything is cleaned and painted underneath.

[Dino]

You know, if that spindle is bent I have a match for that.   

I'll post this here as well as I found this earlier.  These are the markings on LCAs.  I checked mine and they have RW/LF stamped on one and RW/RF on the other.  I also don't have the flat spot in the middle, it's all curved.

VL VL VL VL
LF RF LR RR
Those are A body arms.
PD PD RW RW
RF LF RF LF
Those are B and E body arms.

[71 SE3834V]

The only pic of the pass. side LCA it looks to be the same although a lot dirtier. 20 yrsof dirt and grime then 20 yrs of sitting Then I got a hold of it and put some lovin' into it.

[71 SE3834V]

You know, if that spindle is bent I have a match for that.  

I'll post this here as well as I found this earlier.  These are the markings on LCAs.  I checked mine and they have RW/LF stamped on one and RW/RF on the other. I also don't have the flat spot in the middle, it's all curved.

VL VL VL VL
LF RF LR RR
Those are A body arms.
PD PD RW RW
RF LF RF LF
Those are B and E body arms.

Man that's not what I wanted to hear, wrong part, but then again that's better then frame damage. Just what I want to do. Tear another front end apart. What do you make of the letters?

[Dino]

If yours have PD stamped into them, then they should match the car.  Let me go double check the curve on my LCAs so I can compare them to yours.

[71 SE3834V]

Forgot to mention this is a 1971 in case the avatar wasn't obvious. 

[Dino]

I took a few pics but can't seem to transfer them to my tablet.  I'll get them on the laptop in the morning and post them.  My LCAs look like yours, there is indeed a flat-ish spot in the middle and the sway bar bracket is in the same spot.  So either we both have the correct arms or we both have A body arms.  I sure hope not because I really messed up my thumb playing with those damn bushing sleeves!  I found a real easy way to get those out by the way, but we'd need a mig welder.

Since both arms on your car are of the same type, I doubt this is the cause of the negative camber issue.  And although my suspension had the offset bushings and everything else was worn out, my front wheels were straight so I don't think there's an LCA issue here either.

Still I'd like to know for sure, and I know you do as well, what the correct LCAs for our cars are.

[71 SE3834V]

You're not a real mechanic until you bust your thumb with a 3 lb. hammer.   (Two whacked thumbs up).

I'm sure my welder woulda attached a rod to the sleeve that we coulda knocked out through the other side with a punch but hey....we didn't have it and we were following the approved FSM procedure.  

I got the part #'s for both sides but lotta good that does if it's not stamped on the part.
I mostly want to know before I wear out a tire. The previous owner drove on it a long time like this as evidenced by the extreme unevenly worn tires that were on it.

[six-tee-nine]

I cant tell if 2nd gen and 3rd gen should share the same LCA's but I can tell you they do NOT look like 2nd gen b-body LCA's.

[Dino]

Here's my driver side LCA.   Looks like b body to me.   

[Highbanked Hauler]

I posted a pic in the "Anyone using offset uca bushing" thread of my front end with severe negative camber on the drivers side (not so much on the pass. side). http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,119605.new.html#new

Having stated that a couple of shops gave it a look see and Dino has looked it over and no signs of damage have been found that would cause this I figured it's time to post it up.

HPP suggested that possibly A body arms were installed as they (A body arms) are 3/8" longer.
Kern Dog said A body arms are flat on the bottom and curved on both ends.

I don't have the car home for the next few days but found one pic of the drivers side LCA. If zoomed in I can see the letters PD and LR cast on the rear side.
Anybody got a guess as to which one this is?
When I get the car back home I will compare the 2 sides to see if they're the same, look for more numbers and letters and take some more pics now that everything is cleaned and painted underneath.

You MIGHT have the wrong lower control arm on there. Your upper and lower ball joints should almost  vertically align and your upper ball joint bolt is at an extreme angle which isn't good. The picture  Dino  posted looks like the one on my 69 which looks shorter than yours. Offset bushings won't get anyway near the the amount of length you need there. Good luck..

[71 SE3834V]

Here's my driver side LCA.   Looks like b body to me.   

Those don't look like mine. My flat area looks longer. Anybody got a part # for the '69?
'71 part # is as follows: Right side - 2535974, Left side - 2535975.

  You MIGHT have the wrong lower control arm on there. Your upper and lower ball joints should almost  vertically align and your upper ball joint bolt is at an extreme angle which isn't good. The picture  Dino  posted looks like the one on my 69 which looks shorter than yours. Offset bushings won't get anyway near the the amount of length you need there. Good luck..

I don't disagree with you as it's looking like I got the wrong part but bear in mind that pic is taken with the suspension hanging and no upper bump stop is installed yet.
I'll try to take a fresh pic w/the car on the ground in a couple of days. Construction here at the house should be done tomorrow and hopefully all the nails & debri will be cleaned up.

One interesting thing is the pass side is not as bad in fact hardly noticeable and it appears from the pics they're the same style. Both sides have the camber adjusted as far out as possible. If these are indeed the wrong part how does one install these arms, drop it on the ground and not know something's wrong?    First rule of fixing things: If you install something and things aren't right go back and check your work! 

[Dino]

That's what I don't understand; both your LCAs are the same yet only one wheel has negative camber.  Where did you find the part numbers?  Are they stamped on the LCAs??

I'll see if I can find the pat numbers for mine.

[71 SE3834V]

The pdf part manual.

The pass side probably has more neg. camber then it should have but not nearly as bad. If I remember right I think I roughly measured 1 & 5/8" from plumb to the side wall on the drivers side and 5/8" or 3/4" from plumb to the sidewall on the pass side. This was just a rough measurement as I wasn't gonna pay to put it on a rack when I could see it wasn't right and I need to get the mechanicals checked first.

[HPP]

Looking at the pictures in this thread, your lower arms do look different than the one Dino posted. It appears to have extra length between the pad for the bumper and the ball joint. I also agree with HH that your ball joints should be right above each other in a normal situation, but that could just be a camera angle issue. The difference still tends to make me believe your lowers are incorrect. However, as you point out, they have been on there for a while and the origins of the offset bushings kits were originally for camber correction, so it must have been a common enough problem to drive the creation of the problem solver parts. Did it have camber issues when you got it or you have just discovered this since a rebuild?

Perhaps next time you have access to it, you should put a  tape on them and take some measurements we can compare against other known B body arms. Since they are supposed to interchange from 62-72, these dimension should all be similar. I'd try outside of the t-bar socket to the shock mount and from the socket to the ball joint mount. Snap a pic of these so one of us can do a similar comparison and duplicate the same spots for measurements.

[myk]

How does the car handle?  If the camber isn't more than 1 degree negative I say leave it be...

[HPP]

Looks like its around 1.5-2* and if the eccentrics are maxed for that, then it won't allow for any decent caster at all.

Of course some tubular uppers with threaded bushings would solve it once and for all, but I think there is some other issue here.

[71 SE3834V]

... Did it have camber issues when you got it or you have just discovered this since a rebuild?

Perhaps next time you have access to it, you should put a  tape on them and take some measurements we can compare against other known B body arms. Since they are supposed to interchange from 62-72, these dimension should all be similar. I'd try outside of the t-bar socket to the shock mount and from the socket to the ball joint mount. Snap a pic of these so one of us can do a similar comparison and duplicate the same spots for measurements.

It was like this when I bought it in 2011. The previous owner had some deep dish rims on it w/not much backspacing if any. The dr. side tire was extremely worn on the inside but some tread left. The pass. side not so much but more wear on the inside than out. I assumed the bushings were worn.
Got the car driveable in 2012, replaced a bad tie rod and idler arm but hadn't rebuilt the front end yet.
After a hard acceleration if I let off the gas and the weight came back down on the front end it was all over the road. I figured the bushing were shot since there wasn't any looseness in the balljoints.

I replaced upper, lower bushings, ball joints and all questionable tie rods. Wheel bearings regreased and set right.  Forgot about the strut rod bushings (oops!).
Set the cams out to the max and ran it up to Belle Tire. They couldn't set it right so only charged me $20 (frequent customer price I guess). I've got 205/75/14 tires on original Rallye wheels on it now.

Driveabilty was much better and if it wasn't for the "look" of the front end I wouldn't think anything about it. I've put a least 800 miles on it Can drive one finger down the road, it doesn't wander or pull. The only time it gets a little squirrely is if the blacktop road has the ruts in it and if you get out of the ruts it wants to pull you back in if you know what I mean. I attribute that to the road. The roads aren't the best around here and I only have my Ram 2500 4x4 and my wife's Dakota 4x4 to compare it to. Haven't driven cars in decades.

Upon a recommendation I ran it up to a old school front end shop run by an old timer. He slid under it and said I should have a frame shop look at it. Ran it over to the one he recommended. 2 guys crawled all over it and couldn't find anything amiss and suggested maybe the uca was bent.  
Dino has looked it over.
The only thing I have found is the dr. side frame rail between the k member and radiator support has a slight bulge on the bottom when compared to the pass side. and the front valance has been pushed up slightly as the 3 supports behind it have bends in it. No wrinkle, etc anywhere on the rail, inner fender etc. Maybe somebody did a DoH jump in it, bent the arms and replaced them w/the wrong ones.  

When I get it back I will take some pics of the arms, spindles & ball joints with the car on the ground and get some measurements.

Looks like its around 1.5-2* and if the eccentrics are maxed for that, then it won't allow for any decent caster at all.

You think it's only 1-2* negative? To me, at least in person, it looks like the wheel is about to fall off!

[HPP]

It sounds like its had this issue for a while if the tires were worn that way when you got it. I also would have suspected a frame shop would have checked enough items to confirm nothing is radically bent, so that's not a factor. Could an upper arm be bent, possibly, but they also  aren't heavily loaded and being a lower usually happens first. I'm anxious to see what measurements come from it.

Yes, it looks like a lot but it is probably measures less than you think. However, it doesn't take a lot to wear out tires, especially when camber is combined with toe settings to create a very small contact patch on the road. You may have about a 3"x3" contact patch under each front tire, so 52-54% of the cars total weight is concentrated on those small patches.

I bet you could load an angle finding app on your phone and check it, if you don't already have an angle finder in the garage.

[71 SE3834V]

Just to be clear the frame/collision guys didn't put it on a rack or anything just crawled under it and looked it over under the hood. Their opinion as well as Dino's was if the wheel is this bad as a result of the frame/unibody being damaged it should be clearly seen somewhere. Like I said, no wrinkles on the frame rails, inner fender, etc.
I thought the car was bottomed out at one time and the frame rails twisted out but again can't see any issues other than the ones mentioned. Your reason, wrong lca, is the first thing that makes sense.
If the wrong parts were installed it was a long time ago. The whole underside and bottom half of the engine was covered in thick grime. Years of oil leaks combined with a lot of Tennessee dirt (where it came from before the p.o. bought it to Mi. in the 80's) hide the fact that there might be some replaced parts on the car. I figure either the originals were bent or the bushings were worn out and somebody just picked up what they though were the right ones at a junkyard.
Nope, don't have an angle finder. I gotta speed square! Lots of wrenching tools but not much in the way of construction tools. Just the basic stuff.

The hunt for the correct arms begins...

[71 SE3834V]

Update:
I haven't been able to get the car up in the air to do any measuring yet but I did take some pics.
The previous pic showing the bottom of the lca being long and flat is an illusion. The lca's look exactly like Dino's except for the location of the sway bar bracket. The numbers also match Dino's research. Casting #82459 & RW LF stamped on dr. side with RW RF on the other side.
The ball joints appear to be pretty much on top of the lowers w/the car on the ground.

With the cooler temps here I will try to get some measurements this weekend.

[c00nhunterjoe]

If the lowers are correct, and there is no frame damage, and the spindles are not bent, then the uppers are wrong. Its simple science.

[71 SE3834V]

Ok so it's simple science. Does this uca look bad? Sides are straight. No kinks or wrinkles. Maybe wrong part?

It seems simple until you look at everything and don't see anything wrong. Dino looked it over again today and still can't figure out that if it has suffered some kind of damage why it doesn't easily show somewhere. I will try to get it in the air this weekend, take some measurements and pull the wheel to look over the mounting points again.

[Dino]

We considered the car has the wrong spindle or uca, but we weren't sure what they would be from or how to identify them.

[Highbanked Hauler]

Ok so it's simple science. Does this uca look bad? Sides are straight. No kinks or wrinkles. Maybe wrong part?

It seems simple until you look at everything and don't see anything wrong. Dino looked it over again today and still can't figure out that if it has suffered some kind of damage why it doesn't easily show somewhere. I will try to get it in the air this weekend, take some measurements and pull the wheel to look over the mounting points again.

By the picture the camber adjustment bolt in the upper control arm looks to be turned all the way in. IF IT IS  you can loosen the nut and turn or "roll" the bolt 180* out and if the the back one the same way do it too. tighten the nuts put the wheel on and set the car on its wheels and see if it made a difference.

[Kern Dog]

There are no other upper control arms from another model that are close enough to fit except 1962-72 B body cars. A body arms are too narrow at the mounting points. The 73-78 b body used a different UCA.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Ok so it's simple science. Does this uca look bad? Sides are straight. No kinks or wrinkles. Maybe wrong part?

It seems simple until you look at everything and don't see anything wrong. Dino looked it over again today and still can't figure out that if it has suffered some kind of damage why it doesn't easily show somewhere. I will try to get it in the air this weekend, take some measurements and pull the wheel to look over the mounting points again.

Yes, it is simple science. No, you may not be able to jack it up and visibly see the problem. You need this car on an alignment rack and take the measurements with the machine, not eyeball it on a jack. If all of the components are correct and not damaged as it appears, then you are left with 1 of 2 options- 1: the frame is bent and an alignment rack can help show this. Or 2: the caster camber shims are adjusted improperly and the alignment rack will let you set it properly as well. Bottom line: put it on a rack.

[71 SE3834V]

Ok so it's simple science. Does this uca look bad? Sides are straight. No kinks or wrinkles. Maybe wrong part?

It seems simple until you look at everything and don't see anything wrong. Dino looked it over again today and still can't figure out that if it has suffered some kind of damage why it doesn't easily show somewhere. I will try to get it in the air this weekend, take some measurements and pull the wheel to look over the mounting points again.

By the picture the camber adjustment bolt in the upper control arm looks to be turned all the way in. IF IT IS  you can loosen the nut and turn or "roll" the bolt 180* out and if the the back one the same way do it too. tighten the nuts put the wheel on and set the car on its wheels and see if it made a difference.

That pic is not current. That was a pic I took as I was putting things but together back in 2011. I set the cam bolts to try to get the maximum positive camber once I was done. If you look in the above pic I took just the other day you can see, behind the blue shock the bolt is maxed outward.

I will be checking the current status of the cam bolts and take some pics of the mounting points once I get the wheels off this weekend as I don't really know where the shop left them if they moved them at all. I just happened to catch that one in the picture.

[71 SE3834V]

Ok so it's simple science. Does this uca look bad? Sides are straight. No kinks or wrinkles. Maybe wrong part?

It seems simple until you look at everything and don't see anything wrong. Dino looked it over again today and still can't figure out that if it has suffered some kind of damage why it doesn't easily show somewhere. I will try to get it in the air this weekend, take some measurements and pull the wheel to look over the mounting points again.

Yes, it is simple science. No, you may not be able to jack it up and visibly see the problem. You need this car on an alignment rack and take the measurements with the machine, not eyeball it on a jack. If all of the components are correct and not damaged as it appears, then you are left with 1 of 2 options- 1: the frame is bent and an alignment rack can help show this. Or 2: the caster camber shims are adjusted improperly and the alignment rack will let you set it properly as well. Bottom line: put it on a rack.

It was put on a rack back in 2011 (see post #17). Maybe I need to find a better shop that knows old Mopars.

[c00nhunterjoe]

The pic with the blue shock has it set negative....

[71 SE3834V]

The pic with the blue shock has it set negative....

Huh??

The bolt is in it's out most position. This would move the uca out to the maximum positive position it would go although in my situation it's still a negative camber.
I was just told in post #24 to turn the bolt 180* from it's inner position in the old pic to try to correct the problem. 180* from the inner position would be maximum out which is where it is currently at.
What am I missing?

[c00nhunterjoe]

I just scrolled back through all the pics, in each one, the cams are in different positions so i will stick with my same suggestion. Stop guessing and put it on a rack.

[71 SE3834V]

Is the bolt currently in the negative or positive position?
Yes putting it on a rack is a good suggestion but you're not following what I've stated.

The first pic of the lca is a moot point since it is was an optical illusion resulting from it hanging in the air.
The pic of the uca is an old pic before the front end was finished and adjusted. This was shown just to show the uca looked good.
The car was put on an alignment rack when the front end was finished in 2011 but was probably gone over by someone who knows nothing about old Mopars.
The current pics showing the blue shocks is the state in which it is in now sitting on the ground.
I am going to measure some parts to confirm whether the parts are correct since some suggested that they are incorrect. Putting it on a rack w/the wrong parts would be silly.
I will also confirm what position the rear adjusting bolt is in since I couldn't get my head in there to see. I didn't think to use the camera.
I will do some rough measuring of the frame just to try to get a lead on what is wrong and gather as much info as I can.
When I am convinced all the parts are correct I will search for a frame shop that is knowledgeable of old Mopars.

I have been given 3 opinions, from people who have seen the car in person, that if the negative lean of the wheel was a result of damage there is usually other obvious signs that show up. I am trying to eliminate all other possibilities first before putting it BACK on a rack.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Is the bolt currently in the negative or positive position?
Yes putting it on a rack is a good suggestion but you're not following what I've stated.

The first pic of the lca is a moot point since it is was an optical illusion resulting from it hanging in the air.
The pic of the uca is an old pic before the front end was finished and adjusted. This was shown just to show the uca looked good.
The car was put on an alignment rack when the front end was finished in 2011 but was probably gone over by someone who knows nothing about old Mopars.
The current pics showing the blue shocks is the state in which it is in now sitting on the ground.
I am going to measure some parts to confirm whether the parts are correct since some suggested that they are incorrect. Putting it on a rack w/the wrong parts would be silly.
I will also confirm what position the rear adjusting bolt is in since I couldn't get my head in there to see. I didn't think to use the camera.
I will do some rough measuring of the frame just to try to get a lead on what is wrong and gather as much info as I can.
When I am convinced all the parts are correct I will search for a frame shop that is knowledgeable of old Mopars.

I have been given 3 opinions, from people who have seen the car in person, that if the negative lean of the wheel was a result of damage there is usually other obvious signs that show up. I am trying to eliminate all other possibilities first before putting it BACK on a rack.

Youre not following what im saying. If this has been a problem since 2011, and you still wont put it on another alignment rack and feel that jack stands, your thumb, a squinched eye and a tape measure are still the fix, then my words fall on deaf ears. I bid you good luck in your endeavors as i am walking away from this conversation.

[71 SE3834V]

Youre not following what im saying. If this has been a problem since 2011, and you still wont put it on another alignment rack and feel that jack stands, your thumb, a squinched eye and a tape measure are still the fix, then my words fall on deaf ears. I bid you good luck in your endeavors as i am walking away from this conversation.

Is the bolt currently in the negative or positive position?
Yes putting it on a rack is a good suggestion but you're not following what I've stated.

The first pic of the lca is a moot point since it is was an optical illusion resulting from it hanging in the air.
The pic of the uca is an old pic before the front end was finished and adjusted. This was shown just to show the uca looked good.
The car was put on an alignment rack when the front end was finished in 2011 but was probably gone over by someone who knows nothing about old Mopars.
The current pics showing the blue shocks is the state in which it is in now sitting on the ground.
I am going to measure some parts to confirm whether the parts are correct since some suggested that they are incorrect. Putting it on a rack w/the wrong parts would be silly.
I will also confirm what position the rear adjusting bolt is in since I couldn't get my head in there to see. I didn't think to use the camera.
I will do some rough measuring of the frame just to try to get a lead on what is wrong and gather as much info as I can.
When I am convinced all the parts are correct I will search for a frame shop that is knowledgeable of old Mopars.

I have been given 3 opinions, from people who have seen the car in person, that if the negative lean of the wheel was a result of damage there is usually other obvious signs that show up. I am trying to eliminate all other possibilities first before putting it BACK on a rack.

Where in the world did you get the "won't" put it on a rack (see above)?
Where has it been said that I'm trying to fix this problem myself (again see above)?

Again, I've stated I'm trying to determine if the parts are correct and they are sound. Any first year auto tech knows you can't align it until the parts are correct and sound. If I had just put it on a rack as you suggested I would know nothing other than what the tech tells me. I choose to be an educated consumer. Thanks to some suggestions by others via PM I have crawled under the car, visually inspected parts and took some measurements. Because of this I can now bring some vital information to the shop that I choose. I know a heck of a lot more about this car than I knew back in 2012 and if I knew then what I know now things might have been different.

Geez, I remember being told last year "If you aren't willing to do what needs to be done you shouldn't own one of these cars." Now I'm told don't do the work yourself. Take it somewhere and let someone else tell you what's wrong and hope that the parts on the car are correct or they'll charge you the "checkout" fee and send you back home.

No big loss you bowing out of this conversation as you haven't brought much to it other than "put it on a rack". Ya might have at least suggested I needed to find a shop that knows old Mopars. That would have been more helpful.
Don't let the screen door....
Oh! and you never did answer the question of whether the bolt behind the blue shock was set in the negative or positive position. Don't worry. Everyone's wrong once in a while. You can admit it. No one will think any less of you.

[c00nhunterjoe]

If you think that you need an "old mopar specialty" shop to do an alignment, then you do know nothing. Alignments havnt changed, most modern cars and even trucks use the same style cams that mopar used in the 60s. There is no "classic mopar expert" needed to do an alignment. Hell, my 2006 silverado has the exact same alignment method as the 60s mopars, literally exact.
  Fwiw, yes, the 1 cam that is visible in your blue shock picture is maxed out and i even stated earlier that i got mixed up because you posted several pictures.
   I didnt say dump your car in a shop and walk away. I said put it on the rack and see whats wrong/ bent/damaged. Any 1st year auto tech also knows that if you have a problem like yours, the alignment rack will help pinpoint the issue. And any alignment guy should take 1 look at your car in the parking lot and know there is a problem. But you are right, my years setting up front ends on 160 mph race cars, lifted trucks and lowered imports means nothing.

*****After sitting back and thinking a while; i wish to apologize. I can see how i came across harsh in my replies and while that was partially intended, it was not meant to be demeaning or arrogant. I have been doing front ends a long time and my point is that putting the car on the alignment rack for measurement purposes (not just trying to line your car up in its current state) is the best and most effective way to find your problem. You can only do so much laying on an unlevel driveway using a tape measure and jacks. Dont forget that every time you jack up a corner of the car, the whole frame twists, throwing your measurements off.... *******

[Slider]

Thought I would throw in my 2 cents here as I had the exact same issue with my 69 Charger R/T

The front suspension when I bought the car was worn out badly when I bought it. All the bushings were a mess and the front end felt very loose. The camber was WAY off and the inside of the tires were worn quite a bit compared to the outside. Checked and adjusted the toe to get it closer than it was while I waited for the Energy Suspension master bushing set to come in. That just made the car super scary to drive. Toed it back out and it was better but I parked it anyway after one time on the highway I hit a small bump and the car made a sharp right turn on its own!

While installing all the new bushings I noticed a very bad situation. The tube welded into the K member to support the pivot shaft had become unglued from the K member. The end of the Pivot Shaft is what sits in this tube. It was wobbling around in the K member by over 1/2". Made a thick washer to fill the gap and welded the tube back into place. The other side had some cracking around the same tube but wasn't as bad. Cleaned it up, welded the cracks and overlaid a washer welding it into place to reinforce it.

After all the repairs were done, the bushing kit installed and a FULL alignment done, the car now drives like brand new. Be sure to ask the alignment shop to do a complete alignment. Some shops now set toe and call it done as they have a cheap version of an alignment advertised and will only do toe for that price.

Hope this helps!