Seems even the French hate the French........>>>>>

[Johnny SixPack]

WTF is going on over there?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/04/world/europe/04cnd-france.html?ex=1301803200&en=d3579ba057f8ff9b&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Last summer there was widespread rioting too.

For priding themselves as non-violent everybody-loves-us types, they sure can get into civil disobedience.


Johnny

[ChgrSteve67]

Why can't they show this kind of passion over something important.

Instead they riot over a stupid labor law.

[Mefirst]

Instead they riot over a stupid labor law.

That "stupid labour law" is the reason they are rioting/protesting

..another thing, before posting stuff like that read up on some facts about -WHY??? If you botherd to read the whole article it would have become clear to you

"The law, as passed by the French Parliament and deemed constitutional by the Constitutional Council, created a new labor contract for people under the age of 26 that gave employers up to two years to fire them without cause"

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/04/world/europe/04cnd-france.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5088&en=d3579ba057f8ff9b&ex=1301803200&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

The young people are protesting against the governments plans on voting through this law, that will make the employment security for young people even worse.. So in my opinion the youth is doing the right thing protesting.. -Would you like to be employed under laws that make it easy for companies to treat you like they feel, just because you are a young person ?? Then again I do condone that some of the young people in the crowd of protesters see this just as an opportunity to cause havoc and start rioting, a thing that has absolutely nothing to do with the protest in question...

[Arthu®]

Instead they riot over a stupid labor law.

That "stupid labour law" is the reason they are rioting/protesting

..another thing, before posting stuff like that read up on some facts about -WHY??? If you botherd to read the whole article it would have become clear to you

"The law, as passed by the French Parliament and deemed constitutional by the Constitutional Council, created a new labor contract for people under the age of 26 that gave employers up to two years to fire them without cause"

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/04/world/europe/04cnd-france.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5088&en=d3579ba057f8ff9b&ex=1301803200&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

The young people are protesting against the governments plans on voting through this law, that will make the employment security for young people even worse.. So in my opinion the youth is doing the right thing protesting.. -Would you like to be employed under laws that make it easy for companies to treat you like they feel, just because you are a young person ?? Then again I do condone that some of the young people in the crowd of protesters see this just as an opportunity to cause havoc and start rioting, a thing that has absolutely nothing to do with the protest in question...

Damn I could have said that, well said. I completely agree especially about the protesters that see this just as an opportunity to cause a riot.

Arthur

[Recharger]

Instead they riot over a stupid labor law.

That "stupid labour law" is the reason they are rioting/protesting

  uh, That's what he said, isn't it?...

...another thing, before posting stuff like that read up on some facts about -WHY??? If you botherd to read the whole article it would have become clear to you

"The law, as passed by the French Parliament and deemed constitutional by the Constitutional Council, created a new labor contract for people under the age of 26 that gave employers up to two years to fire them without cause"

I did read the whole article.  And now I feel like rioting too.  Not because I have any sympathy for those thugs, but because I wasted 15 minutes of my life reading about such stupid, selfish morons.
 
Please inform me if I'm missing something, but according to that article (and what you posted there) they're upset because they might get fired without notice?  So what?  What are they expecting, guaranteed employment?  Most states in the U.S are hire at will/fire at will.  Employers can fire you pretty much any time they want, without notice.  The trick is, you show up on time, do your job and you'll usually be o.k. (Usually)   I'd be happy to hear the government was encouraging the hiring of under-26 employees if I was in that demographic.  I'd be surprised if 30% of those protesters (both peaceful and rioters) actually knew what they were protesting about.  The real irony is, these people are supposedly so worried about employment security, and what are they doing - wasting their days protesting instead of going to work or school.        

The last few paragraphs pretty much sum it up:

The sunshine and mild weather throughout France encouraged a strong student turnout, which seemed much larger than last week, while the turnout of sympathetic striking workers and union members seemed smaller. A day out on strike is a day's pay after all, and this is a cause that does not affect workers with secure jobs.

Not even all the students have to sacrifice for the cause. "I have the chance to go to school in the morning and march in the afternoon," said Cecile Navarre, 16, a high school student in Achères, a suburb of Paris, at today's demonstrations. "I also can borrow notes from students who decide to go to school. I'm not worried."

Then again I do condone that some of the young people in the crowd of protesters see this just as an opportunity to cause havoc and start rioting, a thing that has absolutely nothing to do with the protest in question...

I'm pretty sure you meant "concede" not "condone," right?  If so I agree...

[hemihead]

Fired without cause? So what?Every job I've ever had was like that.If you don't have a union where you work this is a normal fact of life.And we know how much the white collar populace loves unions.All I can say is good for the french for protesting something they feel is wrong.
If that happened here we would just lay down and say "oh well,the government said we have to.". Unless it's about a war , then all the old hippies come out of the woodwork to relive their youth.Viva Liberte'

[nh_mopar_fan]

This is a joke. They want guaranteed employment. The problem is, many employers will hesitate to hire because it's so damn hard to get rid of a deadbeat. So, unemployment is sky high over there.

They want it both ways.

[Vainglory, Esq.]

Sorry, Arthur and Mefirst, but that attitude shows a lack of understanding of the issues at the heart of the matter.  Sure, it will make "employment security" worse, as you say, but overwhelming evidence points to the idea that it will make overall employment better.  Why is it that French unemployment tends to be around 10%, as opposed to about 4.5% in the United States?  Why is it that the young people targeted by this law are facing unemployment rates of around 25%? (!)  It's all in the economics.

Make it impossible to fire people, and you make companies unwilling to hire people.  Do that, and you've got massive unemployment.  I, for one, would rather work at more than one different company in my lifetime (if I even have to) than have a 1 in 4 chance of having no job at all.

Check out this article: http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=13648

And look out for Sarko.

[73dodge]

Sorry, Arthur and Mefirst, but that attitude shows a lack of understanding of the issues at the heart of the matter.  Sure, it will make "employment security" worse, as you say, but overwhelming evidence points to the idea that it will make overall employment better.  Why is it that French unemployment tends to be around 10%, as opposed to about 4.5% in the United States?  Why is it that the young people targeted by this law are facing unemployment rates of around 25%? (!)  It's all in the economics.

Make it impossible to fire people, and you make companies unwilling to hire people.  Do that, and you've got massive unemployment.  I, for one, would rather work at more than one different company in my lifetime (if I even have to) than have a 1 in 4 chance of having no job at all.

Check out this article: http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=13648

And look out for Sarko.

Good points VG

From what I've read to lose your job in France there are 4 options an employer can use to get rid of any employee

1. Pay them to leave, offer a large payout to quit.
2. Put them on the "shelf" basically stick them somewhere doing something meaningless until they get frustrated and quit. But they can still opt to stay and you basically end up paying people to breath
3. Fire them but you will get sued and lose in court in which case you will end up paying the person tons of money making it impossible to stay in business any longer.
4. Close the doors of the business, but then everyone loses their job.


So if you get hired by a company in France you have a job for life and it does not matter what kind of job you do if you are a lazy slob or a good worker you will never have to worry about losing your job.

Good for lazy slobs bad for businesses.

[hemihead]

The 4 points made above are the same as I have experienced with companies here.The businesses here treat blue collar by the same 4 points.

[last426]

So if you get hired by a company in France you have a job for life and it does not matter what kind of job you do if you are a lazy slob or a good worker you will never have to worry about losing your job.

Good for lazy slobs bad for businesses.

Nice and easy to say but not true at all.  In fact, the French and many others are much more efficient that the U.S.  Read this article if you want to become  informed.  I especially like the Christianity slant. http://minneapolisfed.org/pubs/region/03-12/clement.cfm

[hemi68charger]

Next thing you know illegals are going to protest about getting sent back............  Oh, wait, that's already happening........... 

Seriously..... Well, I actually was serious about the previous statement, but, I shall digress.....

Europe and the United States may be alot of like, but they are alot "unlike" each other as well..... They are for the most part, a socialist part of the World.. I think the government knows well enough that in order to stimulate business into their country, they have to make it more "company-friendly"... Ultimately, the company's don't exist for the employees, the employees work for the company. A company has to be able to survive. They exist to make money, period............ There's the economic check-and-balances, just like anything else........

The French situation is very hard, and like anything, some times you gotta have growing pains before things get batter. With the Status Quo. business will not thrive in France....  Don't get me wrong, I'm not for just plain indiscriminate firings, but if a company needs to fire someone, then by God, let them.....              Give me a break.......


Troy

[Shakey]

In France, at McDonalds the Quarter Pounder with Cheese is called, Royale with Cheese.   

That's becasue of the silly Metric system.   

I learned that watching a movie.   

Oh yeah, in Nederland, they put mayonaise on freedom fries.  I tried it when I was there after visiting a coffee house.   

[73dodge]

So if you get hired by a company in France you have a job for life and it does not matter what kind of job you do if you are a lazy slob or a good worker you will never have to worry about losing your job.

Good for lazy slobs bad for businesses.

Nice and easy to say but not true at all.  In fact, the French and many others are much more efficient that the U.S.  Read this article if you want to become  informed.  I especially like the Christianity slant. http://minneapolisfed.org/pubs/region/03-12/clement.cfm

The link you provided does not negate my point, my point was that in order to get fired or lose your job the employer has to use 1 of the 4 options to get rid of you this is not a documented procedure it's just what the French Government found that french business owners were doing to dump people who did not work without getting sued. It has nothing to do with labor/leisure/productivity and the US vs. France and who is more productive in the alotted hours available for work issue.  It has to do with good workers and bad workers and what a business owner can do to get rid of a person if they don't perform. If the old system in France was so wonderful why are they changing it and why are the people under 25 fighting it. I've seen what the attitude that says "I have a job for life and they can't fire me" does for productivity. I've worked in a place that because the guy with the most senority was virtually unfireable because of union protections and the like that he basically came in to sleep 8 hours and did nothing the whole shift. The management tried to fire him but he would always be back with back pay within a week. The management had their hands hogtied by a union and the rest of us in the shop had to pick up the work slack for the guy that decided that he wanted to take a nap for his shift 3 days a week.

And the protestant work ethic sited in the article is not a work more hours, so you get more $$, so you can buy more stuff ethic.

If you want to know the biblical priciple for work It's an ethic that says do a good job no matter what your hand finds to do as unto the Lord.

[Arthu®]

Oh yeah, in Nederland, they put mayonaise on freedom fries.  I tried it when I was there after visiting a coffee house.   

Yep that's true we drown em in it

Anyways, I can only say that I see where the protests are coming from. Most of you have probably never been overhere (I know you have Vain), it is just that they are changing something that has been the way of life around these parts for decades. I don't agree with all the violence and riots that are going on. This will in the end only put a negative feeling to the protests.

Remember Europe is completely different from the US, especially the countries I and Mefirst come from. You can jump high and low how this system will never work. But it does has been working for decades around here. Do I think it is the ideal, no it isn't. But the US's ain't ideal either. There are pro's and con's to each.

However trying to introduce the system you have over there here, just doesn't work. It has been tried, my uncle used to work with Qwest, a from origin US company that still had US chairman here. They tried to do the same thing, not only did this just not work, it was also a main reason that the company didn't work and eventually went belly up. The people here are just not used to rules like that and I don't know if you know how we are but we are pretty headstrong. Usually if an employee doesn't like the terms he would rather not work at all than work for something he doesn't believe in. If that is right or wrong, I am not even getting into that. It is the same thing with striking, it is and always has been so that whenever someone here doesn't like something and he can get enough people to join them. They strike. They will strike for just about anything, it is almost as bad that they will strike for a new coffee machine. Again you can jump high or low if this is right or wrong or dumb or smart. It is just how it works overhere.

If I have that mentality not really, I wouldn't care so much to know if I have a steady job. Not right now anyways. I have never had problems finding jobs even though the unemployment rate here is just as high as in france. Remember that these umemployment rates are jacked up very fast by a large group of unemployed immigrated teenagers. Especially the turks and morrocans that live here have a very slim chance of getting a job. Just because nobody will hire them. Again this is might not be right or wrong, but just how it works here. And I personally believe that there will be no drastic change any time soon.

The problem with the youth's unemployment rates especially here in the Netherlands and in France is with the kids of the immigrants of the 60's and 70's. They are all now around my age and have no future. This is a group that for one doesn't even try to get a job they seek their future in crime. This is a far larger problem here, that was what the last riots in france were about and I could see that happening here in the Netherlands. It is an explosive situation, how do I know I am right between it. Lately our neighborhood has been flooded with a large group of young immigrants from a nearby neighborhood. Crime is up 70%. The problem is with their lack of respect for authority. That is what keeps them from getting jobs and a future. They have never been raised, at home they could do nothing and outside anything was possible. These are kids of 16 or 17 years old that like to throw rocks at cars or try to carjack you and than be suprised if they are run over (A case of a purse snatcher in Amsterdam that was squashed to death between a wall and the back of a car when the woman that was robbed backed up against the wall, she was charged with manslaughterl.

I don't believe the riots in france are solely for the employment law. They officially are but it is also just an expression of frustration especially against the problems I just mentioned. The first signs of this were the elections for the european union. All of the leading countries of the EU voted No. Not because they didn't want the EU, but more because of a frustration with the government. This was a dumb move in my opinion, but try talking to the avarage voter. It would make you sad that they ever invented the right to vote.

Arthur

[4402tuff4u]

There is plenty of work in Iraq to rebuild that country!

[ChgrSteve67]

I was just sitting her thinking about a reply to Mefirst's comments but decided it isn't worth my time .

Thanks Recharger for READING my post correctly.

I work for an "At Will" employer and understand what it is to keep a job because I worked for it not because a Union or labor law says I should. Also my retirement is my responsibility. If your lucky your employer contribute some money. My employer contributes 2% of what I contribute into my retirement fund.

I'm sure many of the people that visit this board have to work very hard and would love to have a their future job and lifestyle guaranteed.
I would also like to win the lottery

Public disobedience is not the way to get attention (or any credibility) brough to your complaint.
Why should these people be rewarded for thier actions...

And to say why punish all for the actions of the few.... I didn't see anyone protesting the protesters.

My 2 cents.

[bull]

In France, at McDonalds the Quarter Pounder with Cheese is called, Royale with Cheese.   

That's becasue of the silly Metric system.   

I learned that watching a movie.   

"Pulp Fiction"

[Shakey]

In France, at McDonalds the Quarter Pounder with Cheese is called, Royale with Cheese.   

That's becasue of the silly Metric system.   

I learned that watching a movie.   

"Pulp Fiction"

You got it!

I remember not long after the movie came out t-shirts were available that simply said:

"Royale with Cheese"

on the front.   

[BrianShaughnessy]

I've never been to France or Europe but I would guess that I am somewhat jealous of the french employment system due to my experiences with the opposite side of it.   Even though I hired on "for life" that promise was thrown out more than a dozen years ago and things haven't been the same since.

My company has many employees all over the world.   Unfortunately,   they have a hard time getting rid of employees in Europe even when the entire organization over there is fairly incompetant. My unit of about 25 people do about the same thing that takes about 200 or more French employees to do.   I guess they must be pretty useless after lunch when they serve wine in the cafeteria.

So instead,  it's easier to fire US employees and keep operations open in Europe to some degree while waiting out the years it takes to move the business out.    They opened up a new factory in Ireland several years ago but it takes awhile to get up to speed.   

Years back,  the company laid off hundreds or thousands of US design engineers because they couldn't fire a bunch of German engineers... consequently,  their designs have to be debugged here to work.   The last US designed system was canned about that same time was years ahead of the German design but the bean counters got their way.   



 

[Shakey]

I've never been to France or Europe but I would guess that I am somewhat jealous of the french employment system due to my experiences with the opposite side of it.   Even though I hired on "for life" that promise was thrown out more than a dozen years ago and things haven't been the same since.

My company has many employees all over the world.   Unfortunately,   they have a hard time getting rid of employees in Europe even when the entire organization over there is fairly incompetant. My unit of about 25 people do about the same thing that takes about 200 or more French employees to do.   I guess they must be pretty useless after lunch when they serve wine in the cafeteria.

So instead,  it's easier to fire US employees and keep operations open in Europe to some degree while waiting out the years it takes to move the business out.    They opened up a new factory in Ireland several years ago but it takes awhile to get up to speed.   

Years back,  the company laid off hundreds or thousands of US design engineers because they couldn't fire a bunch of German engineers... consequently,  their designs have to be debugged here to work.   The last US designed system was canned about that same time was years ahead of the German design but the bean counters got their way.   



 

The company I work for was in a similar situation.

We had a manufacturing facility in Lyon and had a bunch of deadbeats employed.  Rather than deal with them, and the fact that they were a drain on resources, we simply sold the plant to some investors in France.  Let them deal with them.

Were building our same products in Canada, Germany & Sweden now.