MSD concerns - the trials and woes of a new MSD customer

[BananaDan]

If you haven't read my thread of my recent ignition troubles, check here to get up to speed.  http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,111953.0.html

In the end, I had a myriad of 6AL Digital (p/n: 6425) failures, as well as a Blaster 2 HV coil (p/n: 8222) that was putting out weak spark. My concerns are with the company itself and how they have handled this situation and I'm curious if anyone else has had similar experiences.

I bought the Digital 6AL and coil from Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004EGZU42?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00029JLAY?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00

When I replaced the coil with a new one from Pep Boys, I called MSD to get a warranty replacement. I was fine with this versus a refund as it's always good to have a spare coil. They returned the coil to me saying it was not an MSD product. Now I'll admit, I removed the MSD sticker and put on an ECS dry transfer decal to dress it up, but it did have the part number stamped on the butt of the coil. I called them back telling them my story and that it was in MSD packaging with paperwork and MSD stickers in the package and that it came from Amazon. They agreed to send me a replacement if I would send them photos of the coil, then damage the top of the coil and send pictures of it damaged so it couldn't be used again. I did this and just spoke with them again to verify they received my e-mail. The RMA person I spoke with said she sent everything to their engineering team and they confirmed that I was sold a counterfeit coil and that it was not a coil they manufactured. To my eye, it looks the same as the one I bought from Pep Boys.    MSD would do nothing for me on the 6AL as they don't refund, they only warranty replace or repair but they are still sending me a replacement coil. On to Amazon.

I then called Amazon to both report MSD's claim that they sold me a counterfeit coil as well as get a refund on my initial 6AL purchase. The Amazon customer service guy immediately reported the issue to their web team for investigation and possible product removal.  He was shocked as that isn't something that typically happens on Amazon. I have to admit, I have been a long time customer and have never had an issue with them. They are also refunding my purchase price of the 6AL which is awesome as it's 13 months after I bought it.

Another concern with this process was when I called MSD tech support. The guy was kind of a dick and basically told me that the problem was with my car and their boxes don't fail. If I wanted to return the box they would repair it but that was it. I told him I had fried 3 boxes, 2 of them only lasted 1 day! He again said the issue was my car, not the box. I had to work to keep him on the phone, asking him "Ok, if it is my car, what on my car would cause this? What should I be looking for? How do I troubleshoot this?". His response was voltage spikes. Anything over 18v would fry the box. As you can read in my other thread, I did dozens of voltage tests as well as remounted my VR to ensure a good ground and installed a volt gauge. My car does not have voltage spikes, the charging system is working as expected with no voltage recorded over 14v.

Pat Collins at Tech West Racing, http://www.techwestracing.com/, told me the digital boxes fail due to RF interference and that was the cause and MSD won't own up to it. I spoke with Rick Gorski at FireCore who said aside from voltage spikes, RF interference is the problem as it affects his digital FC boxes as well and his engineers are working on a fix. MSD's tech support were unwilling to admit that their boxes have troubles and were unwilling to work with me other than mail the box in. Sorry, but I'm not going to mail the box in to get it back 4-6 weeks later to have it fail in a day. I proved with $1,000 worth of boxes from different retailers and different Pep Boys locations that the problem is not my car, but it is these digital boxes.

I don't believe either that the coil was a counterfeit, but we'll see when I get an "official" one from MSD themselves and compare it to the one that is on my car today from Pep Boys and the pictures of the Amazon one that I damaged. I'll provide all of the pictures when I get the new coil from MSD.

I'm glad I got my problem resolved with an analog 6AL box, but I have to admit that my taste for MSD as a company is soured. If the analog box on my car now ever fails, I'll be calling Rick at FireCore and that will be my next ignition system. For now, I just want to drive the car and let my wallet recover. Big thanks to Pep Boys for allowing me to return 3 bad 6AL boxes. On the third and last one, I told them they should consider not carrying this box as it is nothing but trouble.

[BananaDan]

Some web posts I found during my troubleshooting and research into this issue.

https://www.msdignition.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7215
Note the tech's advice to move the mag pickup wires 6" away from any 12v source. Why? RF interference.

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/1511177/1.html
RF interference causing rev limiter to not operate at correct RPMs.

The MSD tech support forums are also filled with reports of box failures and RFI-related issues.

The analog 6AL I put on my car doesn't seem to have any issues.

[Mopar Nut]

This is the first time I've heard three MSD boxes and a coil failing on one car, especially in a short time period.

The MSD tech support forums are also filled with reports of box failures and RFI-related issues.

How old are they?

[BananaDan]

This is the first time I've heard three MSD boxes and a coil failing on one car, especially in a short time period.

The MSD tech support forums are also filled with reports of box failures and RFI-related issues.

How old are they?

The majority of them appear to be between 2011-2013.

[1974dodgecharger]

tough call on this Dan like I said I had issues myself personally also and sent my box in to them.  Came back with a healthy bill, but the real test would be for you buy a box then give that box to someone else to try to see if it fries it, but then get the box back and see if it fries it in your car.  If it fries in your car, but not another person then it might be your car.  that's just a test, but if you do believe if its the MSD and all 3 of them I wouldn't buy MSD again and try another supplier such as you said firecore. 

Whats wrong with the mopar orange or chrome box?  To me those are reliable and less finicky than any other aftermarket ignition box.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Sounds like you need an rf suppressor of some sort or possibly some additional grounds. Seems odd the issues you are having. Most of our class racers have digital boxes surrounded by other electronics and rf without failure. Its a shame you couldnt get details on what components failed in each box. That would greatly help solving the problem.

[myk]

tough call on this Dan like I said I had issues myself personally also and sent my box in to them.  Came back with a healthy bill, but the real test would be for you buy a box then give that box to someone else to try to see if it fries it, but then get the box back and see if it fries it in your car.  If it fries in your car, but not another person then it might be your car.  that's just a test, but if you do believe if its the MSD and all 3 of them I wouldn't buy MSD again and try another supplier such as you said firecore. 

Whats wrong with the mopar orange or chrome box?  To me those are reliable and less finicky than any other aftermarket ignition box.

Maybe he was sold on the idea of the "multi-spark" tech?  I know I was and I know the car ran better after I installed it.  Then again I'm running the old analog box so maybe it's a different situation?

Does Firecore have the multi-spark gimmick also?

[BananaDan]

tough call on this Dan like I said I had issues myself personally also and sent my box in to them.  Came back with a healthy bill, but the real test would be for you buy a box then give that box to someone else to try to see if it fries it, but then get the box back and see if it fries it in your car.  If it fries in your car, but not another person then it might be your car.  that's just a test, but if you do believe if its the MSD and all 3 of them I wouldn't buy MSD again and try another supplier such as you said firecore.  

Whats wrong with the mopar orange or chrome box?  To me those are reliable and less finicky than any other aftermarket ignition box.

Maybe he was sold on the idea of the "multi-spark" tech?  I know I was and I know the car ran better after I installed it.  Then again I'm running the old analog box so maybe it's a different situation?

Does Firecore have the multi-spark gimmick also?

Yes, it was the multi-spark that I was after. I ran an orange box for 5 years prior and the car runs better on MSD. It idles smoother, revs better and starts up better. The orange box was reliable though, it never failed on me. I also liked the benefit of ditching the ballast resistor from the list of things that could fail and things I have to carry in my emergency bag. As I said, only time will tell if I'm through the woods, but the car is running fine on the analog box and I'm betting if I went analog like originally advised I never would have had these issues. My biggest concern is MSD's claim that the coil I bought is a counterfeit. I just have a hard time accepting that. I also wasn't thrilled with the attitude in the tech support guy and his lack of interest in helping me solve the problem.

Financially, I was made whole by Amazon and MSD is sending me a new coil to replace the "counterfeit" one. The money I'm out from this ordeal is wiring parts and tools I needed to buy to do the swap myself as well as labor to my mechanic when I had it towed to him the first time the box failed, probably about $400. Pat @ Tech West Racing told me that the digital boxes have a very high failure rate and MSD knows and won't own up to it. He said if I were local to him and was his customer he would have steered me to an analog 6AL or 6ALN. He also is the one that told me I'd be fine once I put the analog 6AL in and so far he is right. I don't think I'll be convinced that the issue is solved until this season is over. If she lasts another 2 months or so until I put her away for the winter, then I'd say I'm good to go. I'm even hesitant to put my back seat back in the car because that's where the box is mounted and it's a bitch to take in and out every other day.

Sounds like you need an rf suppressor of some sort or possibly some additional grounds. Seems odd the issues you are having. Most of our class racers have digital boxes surrounded by other electronics and rf without failure. Its a shame you couldnt get details on what components failed in each box. That would greatly help solving the problem.

If anyone knows of a way to detect RF interference I'd be happy to try it on my car to see if I have any and how much. I just don't know how to test for that.  

[myk]

I swear by the results of the MSD box as well.  I also installed mine for all of the reasons you listed.  My orange box never died, however there were plenty of unsatisfied users of it and ultimately it didn't have the multi spark feature. 

I'd like to buy a back up analog MSD 6a, however most of the examples I've seen on eBay are crustier than some of the rust buckets that are being sold online.  Did you get a new one, Dan?  And just why are those damn back seats so hard to get out? 

[BananaDan]

I swear by the results of the MSD box as well.  I also installed mine for all of the reasons you listed.  My orange box never died, however there were plenty of unsatisfied users of it and ultimately it didn't have the multi spark feature. 

I'd like to buy a back up analog MSD 6a, however most of the examples I've seen on eBay are crustier than some of the rust buckets that are being sold online.  Did you get a new one, Dan?  And just why are those damn back seats so hard to get out? 

I wish I knew a better way to take them out. My shoulder is sore as hell because my method is to basically get low and lay my shoulder into the seat like a lineman to get those bottom clips disengaged. Check this search, I searched for MSD 6420 and I see some nice used ones and a new in the box for $185.   

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR5.TRC0.A0.H0.Xmsd+6420.TRS1&_nkw=msd+6420&_sacat=0

The one I have is used, a buddy sent it to me. It used to be in his Mustang. Works fine though and runs/revs just as well as the Digital 6AL did without failing.

[myk]

I see.  Well good luck to you, I hope this analog box fixes the issue.  And shame on MSD for acting as if they're just too big to give two s@@ts about their customers now...

[69wannabe]

I hate to say but these days I would buy MSD products from a store or mail order like summit racing or jeg's. So many imposter's/ knock off's out there I wouldn't take my chances on amazon or ebay. I had a 6A on my car years ago and it never failed but I drive quite a bit and got worried that if it failed and I was away from home I would have to buy another one just to get me going again and I don't race the car so really I didn't need the multi spark box on there. The other thing was that with the mopar box it just plugged in and was small and easy to keep an extra in the glove box incase of a failure. The old mopar boxes were better but they still work ok considering almost everything electronic is not made here anyway.....

[Charger4404spd]

I have a few buddies who have had terrible luck with MSD, thats what steered me to Firecore.

[firefighter3931]

I'm not a fan of the MSD digital boxes...lots of problems & failures 

The analog boxes on the  other hand have treated me well over the years. I've never had one fail me yet 

Any company can have a failure but it's how they deal with the customer that matters.

Dan, for your application a FireCore RTR distributor would have been the easiest and most economical option. I've sold many over the past few years and I've only had 2 reported failures which were promptly covered under warrenty. A few are running them on 600hp street/strip builds with excellent results 


Ron

[69wannabe]

Firecore is the way to go!!!!! I am still running a mopar chrome box but I have the plug and play firecore distributor and wire set and running NGK V power plugs. This is the best ignition system set up I have had on my charger since I have owned it. I started out with the RTR distributor but my tach wouldn't work right with that set up so I went back to a plug and play to get my tach working again. I honestly think I had some voltage issues due to a bad voltage regulator and that may have been causing some of my tach issues and I had other wiring issues as well.

Anyway it is too late to try the RTR again since I sold it to a member here on the forum's but i'm a real believer in the firecore product's!!! Since I swapped up to the firecore distributor and wire's I also went with a MSD blaster 2 coil and resistor my ignition system is pretty dang solid. Every once in awhile I will pull a spark plug and take a look at it and that's about it.

I did do some bypassing on my bulkhead where I was losing voltage thru it and I am pretty sure that has helped out alot for my charging system and for the ignition system!!!!

Ron (firefighter) is the man on the firecore products and is very pleasant to deal with, he can get you ignition system up to par!!!!! 

[Charger4404spd]

I agree, Ron is a great guy. He will go to great lengths to help you and to make sure your totally satisfied with Firecore products.

[70-500-SE-EXPORT]

I had a similar problem with the MSD digital box that drove me insane. I originally had a firecore RTR that died, so I decided to get the standard firecore and run a MSD box to have a rev limiter function and hotter spark. I also bought their coil (no problems with coil). I first bought their street fire box (from Amazon). Upon installing it the motor ran horrible (misfired badly and barely would stay running). I spent a week trying to figure out the problem, I called MSD and they said I had RF interference and I had to relocate the dizzy trigger wires 12" away from power sources. This is no easy task because the distributor is right next to the alternator and coil! I moved the trigger wires far as I could from all power wires and still had misfires. So I returned the box to amazon and bought the 6AL digital. I installed it and had the exact same problem. I tried various places to install the box and relocate the wires and must have found a sweet spot because eventually the misfire went away. MSD knows of this problem and needs to fix their boxes or supply some type of RF insulation for the trigger wires!

[myk]

Wh don't they just go back to building the analog boxes?

[Ghoste]

I'm only guessing but aren't digital ones cheaper to build and more money to buy?  Everything digital is cool so its likely easier to sell?
Good question MYk.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Its not just msd. Its all systems. Without getting too technical regarding emi and rfi, since i specialized in testing it for years; the main components on our classics to look at would be the spark plug wires, alternators, voltage regulators and starters.

[C500]

Glad I saw this post, was originally planning to go with MSD 

[myk]

Glad I saw this post, was originally planning to go with MSD 

Go with the analog box.  Many of us here, Ron included, run the analog box with no issues.  It looks like the digital box is the one with the issues...

[Ghoste]

I have an analog one as well, no issues.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Fwiw, i run an msd ready to run distributor with no problems and both of our race cars have 7al2 plus boxes with no problems.

[Mopar Nut]

Maybe you have a counterfeit.

"Counterfeit 6AL boxes that reach the level of replication detail such as these examples could easily be passed as an authentic MSD Ignition product to the public.

Counterfeit MSD Ignition boxes could cause serious engine damage and are not covered by the MSD warranty.

Recommended Action:
Buy from authorized MSD dealers.

If you purchased a counterfeit from an e-commerce website (including eBay, Amazon, AliExpress) keep the counterfeit product as proof for your dispute, the manufacturer or authorities. If returned, the seller will claim it is not counterfeit, or re-sell it to another unsuspecting consumer. Contact your credit-card company and dispute the charges -- you have the counterfeit product as proof. Leave negative "Counterfeit" feedback for the seller."


http://thecounterfeitreport.com/product/244/

[BananaDan]

Except that I had one box from Amazon and 3 from Pep Boys that all failed. In fact, the Amazon box failed after 2 months and the Pep Boys boxes died within 24 hours each.

[Mopar Nut]

If I was you I would switch to Firecore, that sucks.

[BananaDan]

I give up. The Charger won't start again, no spark.  It had run every time after switching to the analog box until today.

I am done with MSD and the installation I paid someone to do. The car is now away for the season and every MSD-related part and every piece of wiring added/spliced into my car is being cut out including my now suspect engine harness. A new engine harness and ignition system is next. Lesson learned. Do it yourself or don't do it at all.

I need a beer, and a Firecore RTR distributor.

[1974dodgecharger]

damn...hope it all works out 

[68charger440]

The problem may be a bit of fault on both ends.  I had problems burning out msd components also, but it would run OK with the old analog stuff.  I found that the digital components are very sensitive to voltage spikes etc, while the analog stuff is more robust.  It gets harder and harder to not believe your car has some underlying electrical problem that is causing this issue if you keep burning them out one after another.  Once I got my electrical problems straightened out, I stopped burning out the digital components.  If they are right and you are running counterfeit stuff then all bets are off.  That stuff burns out when you sneeze.  Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater either. I.e pulling the new harness etc.  

[68charger440]

I have also found that testing voltage at the battery is like randomly testing one circuit in your home's breaker box when your kitchen lights go out.  You need to test the right circuit.  You need to test it throughout the entire ignition system as well.  I did the ammeter bypass upgrade after finding toasted bulkhead connectors to and from the ammeter which feeds most of the rest of the car.  I think it was the "p" and "j" bulkhead connectors, but I could be remembering that wrong.  Anyway the bulkhead connectors were crispy and the feeder lines tapped off of that line were spiking up and down in voltage.  Once I did the ammeter bypass and replaced those wires my problem with burning out ignition components went away also.