Mini-no-starter

[myk]

Well, the GREAT news is that my shiny new Doug's headers went in without having to ding any tubes.  Also, there's tons of clearance around everything including the fat Hotchkis pieces, and that's with 2 inch primaries into a 3 inch collector.  Great ground clearance too!  

But...the Proform mini starter that also went in isn't engaging the flywheel.  Now as far as I'm concerned starters are just a bolt in deal, right?  Is there something we might've missed while trying to finagle this thing in?  I was running a stock starter before and had no issues at all.  Any ideas guys?  Thanks in advance...

[six-tee-nine]

In most cases starters have a fixed position in the bellhousing opening due to a collar on the strater housing. Meaning if you have the correct one it fits and there is no adjustment or movement possible.

What coulb be possible is that you simply have the wrong starter (maybe for an application with a larger flywheel then yours).

Maybe pull the starter and compare the number of teeth on the pinion with your old OEM part.

[myk]

Thanks, I'll check it out. 

Are the starters the same for all of the Chrysler engines?  I'm pretty sure they are?

[ottawamerc]

Yes I believe they are as well, if it's not engaging could be it's not in all the way (doubt that) or defective (plausible). Great to hear about the new headers thats a BIG victory right there

Scott

[myk]

So that Proform starter just doesn't fit........right.  Looking at other car forums it seems that there're all sorts of quality control/fitment/reliability issues, so if any of you guys are in the market for a mini-starter you might want to consider anyone but Proform.  

In any case, here's the left header after it was pulled out AGAIN...





NO I'm not getting Flowmasters, lol.  I just rested the header on the nearest boxes I could find.  I'm going with short bodied Dynomax Ultraflo's, even though I have to admit that I love the Flowmaster noise and drone; I decided that the exhaust flow was more important than the "look at me and think I'm cool please" factor, even though that is important to me also.  

My X-pipe:





A Mopar Performance branded mini-starter is on its way; let's hope that the Chinese got this one right.  And why is it almost $300?!..

[ACUDANUT]

if your going with headers, I'll take the factory HP manifolds.

[firefighter3931]

Myk, you should have asked before ordering a mini starter.....$300 is crazy !  

I've recommended the DB electrical starter to dozens of members and run the same starter on my car. They run about $75 on E-bay and are top shelf. That thing spins my 572 over like a 4 cylinder  


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mopar-Charger-Cuda-Hemi-440-NEW-Mini-Hi-Torque-Starter-/360477279074?hash=item53ee1ec362&vxp=mtr



Ron

[ACUDANUT]

In most cases starters have a fixed position in the bellhousing opening due to a collar on the strater housing. Meaning if you have the correct one it fits and there is no adjustment or movement possible.

What coulb be possible is that you simply have the wrong starter (maybe for an application with a larger flywheel then yours).

Maybe pull the starter and compare the number of teeth on the pinion with your old OEM part.

"Maybe pull the starter and compare the number of teeth on the pinion with your old OEM part"  I thought this was only a myth ?

[WHITE AND RED 69]

Myk, you should have asked before ordering a mini starter.....$300 is crazy !  

I've recommended the DB electrical starter to dozens of members and run the same starter on my car. They run about $75 on E-bay and are top shelf. That thing spins my 572 over like a 4 cylinder  


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mopar-Charger-Cuda-Hemi-440-NEW-Mini-Hi-Torque-Starter-/360477279074?hash=item53ee1ec362&vxp=mtr



Ron

$300 bucks for a starter! Ouch.

I'm running the same DB starter as Ron, not a single issue with it.

[myk]

Yeah that's my mistake.  I told the shop to just order it-they told me it was a lot more than the Pro-form but I said I didn't care-I wanted it NOW, I just didn't figure it was almost $100 more.  Plus I figure if this starter craps out down the road they'll be on the hook for having to take the exhaust apart and replacing everything...

[A383Wing]

go to local auto parts store and get a starter for a 94 Dakota with V6 or V8.....that's what I put in my car...bolt right in....and not some $300 POS either....mine has a lifetime warranty

[myk]

Yeah screw it-I'm canceling that Mopar starter and going to NAPA for the Dakota one...

[Dino]

if your going with headers, I'll take the factory HP manifolds.

You beat me to it.  I'm thinking of ditching my headers.

[ws23rt]

if your going with headers, I'll take the factory HP manifolds.

You beat me to it.  I'm thinking of ditching my headers.

I've been thinking that for years.  I acquired a set of headers for my 70 charger and put them on just because they were headers. The first thing I noticed was nothing. The second thing I noticed was it was a bitch to get to the starter.

We can add many things to our cars for many reasons.---Is it for show? ---is it because others do it?---
If one put's headers on their car, where does the satisfaction come from? I do know what cool is all about and I spend much for it

I'm just talking to myself as well as others.

[Dino]

if your going with headers, I'll take the factory HP manifolds.

You beat me to it.  I'm thinking of ditching my headers.

I've been thinking that for years.  I acquired a set of headers for my 70 charger and put them on just because they were headers. The first thing I noticed was nothing. The second thing I noticed was it was a bitch to get to the starter.

We can add many things to our cars for many reasons.---Is it for show? ---is it because others do it?---
If one put's headers on their car, where does the satisfaction come from? I do know what cool is all about and I spend much for it

I'm just talking to myself as well as others.

Hey I hear ya 

I have never bought headers, they're just always on the car when I get it.  Not only do they make access a pain, and raise the underhood temps, my main beef with them is the sound they make.  It sometimes drives me crazy to hear that typical header thin metal sound come from under the car.  And since I'm not needing the supposed HP increase, I think I'd be much happer with HP manifolds.  Add a heat stove and I can finally use that dual snorkel I've had on the shelf for so long.   

Too bad people want your first born for the damn things.

[Chargerguy74]

Some info I came across just before purchasing a mini starter last week.

http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/elec/1.html

[ws23rt]

if your going with headers, I'll take the factory HP manifolds.

You beat me to it.  I'm thinking of ditching my headers.

I've been thinking that for years.  I acquired a set of headers for my 70 charger and put them on just because they were headers. The first thing I noticed was nothing. The second thing I noticed was it was a bitch to get to the starter.

We can add many things to our cars for many reasons.---Is it for show? ---is it because others do it?---
If one put's headers on their car, where does the satisfaction come from? I do know what cool is all about and I spend much for it

I'm just talking to myself as well as others.

Hey I hear ya 

I have never bought headers, they're just always on the car when I get it.  Not only do they make access a pain, and raise the underhood temps, my main beef with them is the sound they make.  It sometimes drives me crazy to hear that typical header thin metal sound come from under the car.  And since I'm not needing the supposed HP increase, I think I'd be much happer with HP manifolds.  Add a heat stove and I can finally use that dual snorkel I've had on the shelf for so long.   

Too bad people want your first born for the damn things.

---There is a constant push pull with these old cars.  I personally like them the way they were made. When one starts to modify them it becomes a different beast.

[Dino]

My sentiments exactly.  Either go all out or leave it alone.  I now have a low comp engine with a mismatched cam that went out of style 20 years ago, some cheap headers, and a stupid performer intake.  Yeah that worked out.   

My engine is a 71 so in the boxes of parts that came with the car was the 71 only intake manifold, the good one!  That's going back on with a street demon carb and a slightly hotter than stock cam.  I can't wait!  HP manifolds would be awesome but I don't know if I'll have the funds for them.  I'd also have to modify the exhaust to fit the manifolds.  These headers actually never gave me issues, temps are not too hot, and the stock starter even fits...but that sound...

Of course without the headers the sound coming out the back may not be as nice anymore, but the cam will change that as well.  As cool as this beast sounds, I'm sure I won't miss it for very long when the car is running as it should.

I thought about heatwrap to muffle them under the hood but that's just a band aid.

[A383Wing]

never wrap headers...they will rust out from the moisture trapped in the asbestos heat wrap

[Dino]

never wrap headers...they will rust out from the moisture trapped in the asbestos heat wrap

Good to know!   

[myk]

if your going with headers, I'll take the factory HP manifolds.

You beat me to it.  I'm thinking of ditching my headers.

I've been thinking that for years.   I acquired a set of headers for my 70 charger and put them on just because they were headers. The first thing I noticed was nothing. The second thing I noticed was it was a bitch to get to the starter.

We can add many things to our cars for many reasons.---Is it for show? ---is it because others do it?---
If one put's headers on their car, where does the satisfaction come from? I do know what cool is all about and I spend much for it

I'm just talking to myself as well as others.

Faster, louder, better.  That's my agenda for the car...

Although lately all I've encountered is pricier and more annoying...

[don duick]

Myk

please let us know how your new exhaust sounds and if it is loud drone etc. I just put a pair of dynomax VT mufflers and they sound great and have no drone.

[myk]

Myk

please let us know how your new exhaust sounds and if it is loud drone etc. I just put a pair of dynomax VT mufflers and they sound great and have no drone.

Yes, despite the pressure to mount Magnaflows or Flowmaster 40's I am sticking with Dynomax Ultra-flos, although in a short body style because I want it as loud as possible, but not THAT loud....for the neighbors...I'll let you guys know and post a video/sound clip when and if I can..

[BSB67]

........with 2 inch primaries into a 3 inch collector.  

Seems like an odd size

[myk]

Yeah I'm a little worried about the size.  Guess I'll just have to go and get a bigger engine to go with the headers...

[myk]

Question fellas:  will I have to retune the 'carb in order to compensate for the headers?  In my layman's opinion the car would be running more lean?  I'm running a 750cfm Edelbrock that is currently jetted two sizes up on the primaries, as well as having the accelerator pump rod in the maximum position.  I'm also guessing that only a drive and scan of the plugs is in order to be sure?  I really wish I had that A/F reader now...

[Dino]

What the heck are you still running that paperweight for??      

The worst carb you can get for a 440.     I don't know why I still have mine sitting on a shelf.  I need to get rid of that thing.  I'll send you my 650 and my TQ, you can send me those hrrible hp manifolds.   

I don't know if you'd have to retune it quite honestly.  I wouldn't think so on a street car but there's far more knowledgeable people here to answer that.   

[myk]

Yeah I'd hate to get this thing back and then destroy my engine because of a lean condition.  I want to buy a Holley, probably a 4160, or the Proform (or was it another brand?) that Ron and you guys are always talking about, but I've sorta spent all of my disposable income for the year with the full exhaust lol.    

BTW are you guys sure those are HP manifolds that I had?  I didn't think so but I'll look into it.

And it looks like the Dakota starter that I grabbed at Napa went in and started the car up right away, no issues.  Looks like Proform starters might be off of their parts list from now on.

Also, what part of "DYNOMAX ULTRA-FLO'S" do people not understand?  I don't know why the exhuast guys keep trying to push Magnaflos, Flowmasters, and now Dynomax Super Turbos on the car.  ULTRA FLO'S!!!!  Or for God's sake I will drive that car out of there with open headers to a shop that will let me put Flo's on, lol.  Nothing like customer service in the new millenium...

 

[Dino]

Yeah they want to push their own stuff but don't let them!

Proform is the one they rave about.  I'm going with a Street Demon 1904 myself.  Anything but fhe Eddy 750 brother!   

Check the numbers, if they are HP's you can make some money, if not, you'll have more paperweights.   

[68CoronetRT]

MYK, are you going to Cruisin Grand at all? I have the Ultra Flows on my car and the DB Electric Starter if you wanted to check them out. Or we should setup a trip up to Julian going up Sunrise Highway.

[myk]

Yes the plan is to hit Cruisin Grand this Friday, assuming of course that there are no further complications with the Charger.  What was promised as a 2 day job has become two weeks.  I told them it would take 2 weeks!  

So does anyone think I'm going to have to retune the car for the headers?

[ottawamerc]

MYK it's not just the headers but you did the whole thing right? I believe you also put in the 3" pipes. I'm a hack at this at best but yes your car is going to breath a hell of a lot better and probably be leaner, enough to do damage  You should get the shop to weld in a bung while they are at it for a A/F gauge they are awesome engine management tools!

Scott

[myk]

Damn I forgot all about having them weld in bungs for the sensors.  Ah well, I'll do the plug read dance for now and hopefully it'll be enough...

[myk]

Ok I just got back from the exhaust place and honestly.......I'm so excited about how well the setup turned out that I'm practically moved to tears. 

To begin with, I just LOVE how fast that little Dakota starter spins the motor over-that thing looks like it's half the size of the original starter, but spins that much faster. 

Secondly....Oh man...the sound and the feel of when the Charger fires up turns my knees into f**king Jello.  This is how a musclecar is supposed to sound.  THIS is how my Charger is supposed to sound.  Why didn't I do this 20 years ago when I bought the car?!  Like I said I was going to post a video of the car, unfortunately I don't have any friends so I didn't have anyone to help me work the gas pedal and/or film for me, so all I have for now is the idle:

http://vid42.photobucket.com/albums/e346/mykranili/IMG_0701_zpsj95nch2z.mp4

Thirdly, driving this car has always brought me to Nirvana but now, with the Doug's headers, 2.5" X-pipe into the Dynomax Ultra-flos leading to the OEM looking exhaust tips?  It's so awesome it's like Christmas every time I press the gas pedal.  Now, with 2" primaries I thought I'd lose some torque but I see the opposite, and now this car pulls harder all the way up to the redline.  And the sound, along with the feel!  I mean, it's the same car I've had for decades, but...it's not anymore.  I will say that even though I didn't go with the 40 series Flowmasters, this setup is loud enough where I won't be able to chat with anyone in the car-not that I care, but I thought I should mention it for those facing exhaust decisions in the future.  Trust me when I say that with headers, X pipe and Dynomax Ultra-flos it's plenty freaking loud, and I've got the CFM to back it up.

Inside the engine compartment is also interesting because spark plug and plug wire access actually looks BETTER to me.  I don't think I'll have ANY trouble changing plugs, wires, or doing anything of that nature.  As a gesture of kindness, the exhaust shop is willing to install the wide-band 02 bungs on the exhaust at no charge.  Then again, they also want me to install electric cut-outs lol. 

In any case, I'll try to post up a video with the car actually going through the RPM range.  I'll also try to take some pictures of the finished setup.  What I can't wait to do is install my CH4B intake manifold and get an 02 reader.  If any of you are pondering the headers or not question, I say DO IT.  My Doug's headers required NO massaging at all, not one tube dinged to get in, there's plenty of clearance around the bottom of the car and the plug/wire access is more than good.  Thanks again to all of you guys: the successes that my car and I enjoy wouldn't happen if it wasn't for this site and its people.  My failures would be that much worse if I didn't have your support to recover.  Thanks to all...

[BSB67]

It's cool that you are so excited and like the results.  Its a good feeling.  Congrats.

[firefighter3931]

Headers & Ultraflows with an X-pipe is a huge upgrade. The X-pipe actually increases torque and the increased scavenging from the long tube headers will show a nice power increase. 

Glad you stuck to your guns and got the UltraFlow's.....they are the real deal ! 

Looking forward to the vid clip Myk 


Ron

[myk]

It's cool that you are so excited and like the results.  Its a good feeling.  Congrats.

Yeah well the REAL goal is to get this thing dialed in like your car, but that's another thread I guess.

Headers & Ultraflows with an X-pipe is a huge upgrade. The X-pipe actually increases torque and the increased scavenging from the long tube headers will show a nice power increase.  

Glad you stuck to your guns and got the UltraFlow's.....they are the real deal !  

Looking forward to the vid clip Myk  


Ron

I'm glad I listened to you guys as well.  I respect the Magnaflow and like the Flowmasters but they're just not for me or my car.  Now I have to decide on what 02 reader/system to get.  I ALSO have to start planning my engine build.   

Big thanks to you, Ron!

[WHITE AND RED 69]

Sounds great Myk! Nice to see some products fit as they should (besides the original starter  ) 

Now post some pics of the headers installed   

[myk]

Sounds great Myk! Nice to see some products fit as they should (besides the original starter  ) 

Now post some pics of the headers installed   

Yes I'm really bad with taking pictures that matter lol.  Hey what 02 readers are you guys using?  I'll check the other threads but I figured I'd ask while I'm in here...

[Back N Black]

No question on the ultra flows, they are great mufflers. Did you have to adjust the carb after the upgrades?

[myk]

No question on the ultra flows, they are great mufflers. Did you have to adjust the carb after the upgrades?

That's what I'm going to find out in the next few drives.  I'll pull a plug or two or three and see what my engine gives me.  I really should have planned this better and had the 02 wideband thing already in place.  I couldn't help it.  I wanted the exhaust system pretty badly...

[don duick]

great to hear a success story. try putting  the video camera on the ground so you can get in the car and rev it. sounds good at idle

[69wannabe]

Congrat's on your new starter and exhaust system!!!!  I would like to upgrade to some of those Doug's header's myself sometime in the future. Found out about those mid 90's starter's a few years ago from my local starter and alternator guy.

He built one for me a few years back and built me another one for a spare a couple years later. He called me and said he had another core and if I wanted it he would build it up for me so I figured a spare would be good to have laying around.  

You put that CH4B on there with a good 750 dual line and your smile will be hard to hide!!! Best thing I ever did on my charger was get that edelbrock carb off of it!!!! Don't understand why but all the mopar's that I have ever worked on run better with a holley carb over the carter/eddy style carbs.

[myk]

Thank you.  I plan to replace the Eddy 750 with a 4160 or similar, possibly with a lower CFM.  I'll paste the CH4B onto the heads after the car show season as I just don't have time with work and all.

For the sake of adding more information to the endless pile of varying experiences with endless exhaust setups, after four days of driving with the Charger my passengers aren't too crazy about the new pipes.  There's a considerable loudness (drone?) from 40 to 70 mph as long as the car is cruising or holding speed.  The ruckus disappears as soon as the car starts to accelerate, but then again that's reported to be loud as well.  Keep in mind that my passengers drive Acura's, Honda's, Nissan's, Prius', Fusion's, Buicks, etc.  Am I a heartless bastard for looking into the rearview mirror and grinning as I watch people with their fingers in their ears?

Now "I" think it's freaking awesome.  I can't remember the last time I've gotten into this thing and wanted to just drive, drive, drive until my gas card runs out of money.  Gas mileage has improved as well, and I'm almost certain underhood temperatures have cooled down a bit, if not remained the same.  Now unless I have problems with this setup I'm done with the exhaust for the time being.  After I take care of the intake and 'carb ideas I'm going to revisit my dash/gauge cluster as well as deciding on a bigger, better disc brake system than the stock one up front; probably Baer's T4.  $$$$$$$$ Fun! $$$$$$$

[Kern Dog]

Maybe "sound" is just a subjective thing? I have 2" TTI headers, three inch pipes with an X section and the welded Ultra-Flo mufflers and I can speak and hear people in my car just fine. I did add sound deadening in the floors and doors though. These mufflers are far quieter than my Flowmaster 42541s that I had on the car for 8 or 9 years.
I also just switched to a smaller cam to obtain better street manners. No drone, no excessive noise whatsoever. I have full exhaust to the factory style tips like you do. While it is nice if others share your opinion, the real important thing is that YOU are happy with the car. YOU own it, YOU spend YOUR money to maintain it so YOU are what really matters.

[cdr]

this is the one i have.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/inn-3844

[1974dodgecharger]

go to local auto parts store and get a starter for a 94 Dakota with V6 or V8.....that's what I put in my car...bolt right in....and not some $300 POS either....mine has a lifetime warranty

YUP I agree with A383wing and firefighter get one at DB electrical (where I got mine) or go to autzone and get the Dakota one.  The DB one is a Dakota one also, but since autozone is local just get one there you will pay a little extra vs DB electrical. 

[myk]

Maybe "sound" is just a subjective thing? I have 2" TTI headers, three inch pipes with an X section and the welded Ultra-Flo mufflers and I can speak and hear people in my car just fine. I did add sound deadening in the floors and doors though. These mufflers are far quieter than my Flowmaster 42541s that I had on the car for 8 or 9 years.
I also just switched to a smaller cam to obtain better street manners. No drone, no excessive noise whatsoever. I have full exhaust to the factory style tips like you do. While it is nice if others share your opinion, the real important thing is that YOU are happy with the car. YOU own it, YOU spend YOUR money to maintain it so YOU are what really matters.

Lol...uh yeah I don't have any sound deadening on my floors and doors.  You CAN conversate in my car but you've got to talk loudly and the other person needs to really be paying attention.  Looks like you and I have the same setup, pretty much.  I will consider running the sound deadening, but honestly I'm lovin' this thing like it's my honeymoon with a Playboy model...

[1974dodgecharger]

oh yeah great video man....first time I ever saw video of your charger its a clean setup man....

[myk]

oh yeah great video man....first time I ever saw video of your charger its a clean setup man....

'

I need to get a 'vid with me working the gas-just haven't gotten around to it yet.  Anyway, guys like you and others here have the really clean setups.  I'm just trying to catch up...