73 charger, wires melting/melted

[Lewis]

Hello all, I am new to this so bare with me!! I bought a 73 charger recently and I can't get it to start, when I mean start I mean I am getting the same feed back as though trying to start a car with no battery that's what's happening, no lights horn, ignition nothing at all, a lot of the wires under the dash have melted so I have re wired them all thinking that was the problem, yesterday I went to plug the battery in and straight away the was a puff of smoke which led to my car nearly setting on fire, and the wire that melted was a red one coming off the starter relay which looking at the wiring diagram its labeled as battery just to clarify its not one that I have retired!, what I don't understand is what happened and why It happened!! I really need help as I am out of answers! Sorry for the long post!

[GOTWING]

this is a familiar nightmare I had, I had to purchase a complete used wiring harness  if you take it on you will be like 

[Lewis]

I know I am saving for a new wiring harness but I am from the UK so import it a big deal so just trying to see if it actually works before I throw money at it

[Lewis]

Also just to add I have a 800cca battery with 95ah which I read is the one I need, just didn't know if it was to much and that was the reason the wires are melting

[nascarxx29]

You got a electrical short not caused by a battery application  

 http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/1973/73CoronetChargerA.JPG

http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/1973/73CoronetChargerB.JPG

[Lewis]

Okay thank you, any idea where that may be? Not great with wiring haha

[nascarxx29]

Check all power leads from underhood wiring to firewall bulkhead to amp gauge to fusebox  for damage and isolated what area and wires are most damaged.then using wiring diagram.go from there with a 12 volt testlight.and a bad alt or voltage regulator could overcharge electrical system.anything from a battery cable from starter making ground and causing a short or any carrying power ground shorting will cause melting plastic.  http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,59308.0.html

[Lewis]

Thank you that's very helpful!!!!! I don't have a voltage regulator I can see where it's meant to be but it isn't there don't know why, the air conditioning unit was taken out and most of the wires cut not removed so they are just hanging there so going to remove all non used wires also connector to bulkhead as not in use is that correct?

[Pete in NH]

Hello and welcome to the group,


While you are looking for the short circuit connect a tail light lamp or some other small 12 volt lamp between the positive battery cable and the positive post on the battery. If the lamp lights the short is still present. The lamp will limit the current available in the circuit so you don't risk more melted wires or a fire.

[myk]

If cost is a concern and you think the wiring is that badly damaged, then look to replacing it with an aftermarket wiring harness.  It will certainly be cheaper than a "correct" wiring harness but will work just as well, not cost you as much, and will keep you from burning the car up...

[Dino]

I used to stay away from electrical, basically because I didn't know anything about it.  With the massive help from members here, Pete in particular (thanks Pete!  ), I now actually enjoy electrical work.  In all fairness, the work we need to do on these cars is not that hard.  You're basically just tracing and checking wires.

After doing the test Pete mentioned I would remove the engine harness bit by bit, I'm not savvy on 3rd gens so my apologies if this doesn't make sense.  

On a 2nd gen you can just undo the bulkhead connector clips and remove the other ends of the wires.  On your workbench you can do a visual check for damage and measure resistance from end to end.  That will tell you a lot and will make it easier to decide what route to go.  Buy new or replace.  I was lucky in that I had very good wiring and only a few wires here and there needed replacing.  Actually they just needed insulation, but wiring is cheap enough if you can make it yourself.  

Just do it one step at a time and see what you find.  Do you want to keep the car stock?  If not, there's some easy upgrades to do to protect the car such as a maxi fuse between the battery and the cabin.

[Lewis]

Thanks for the help guys much appreciated! It's not so much the cost it's just the import, like I don't want to pay $159 ish for a cheap loom when I could get a better one and pay the same import if you know what I mean, also would you say a second hand wiring loom taken out a car same era is trust worthy or would people recommend buy new when it comes to wires?

Well I was heading down the keeping it stock route but it all depends on being cost effective and what's best for the car as I know there are some perfect parts out there that are aftermarket, also it has a custom built 383 in it that was built from bottom up, which the 73 didn't have the option of a 383 so you could say it's not stock so it's not a big deal if the car isn't stock, I do want the stock colour though haha top banana/ lemon twist 

[Pete in NH]

Lewis,

Finding a used wire harness is often not the best solution as it too will be 40+ years old. The engine wiring harnesses get baked by engine heat for years and suffer from exposure to grease and oil. An under dash harness will often be in better condition but, the plastic wire insulation does become brittle with age and all this plastic insulation becomes prone to cracking.

I think the best option would be a new reproduction wire harness for both engine compartment and under the dash. If you're tax situation there makes that cost prohibitive wire harnesses can be made if you learn some of the tricks of making them. All in all though, is  often less costly here in the US to but reproduction harnesses by the time you buy the materials. Your situation may be different.

I would start with carefully studying the wiring diagrams, you can buy bulk head connector pins and reusing the bulk head connector bodies if they are in good condition. It would help a great deal if you can post some pictures of the wiring in the car. It will then be easier to advise you on what direction to take.

A final thought on the universal wiring harnesses sold- They are not as easy to install as the makers would like you to believe and call for some good working knowledge of electrical wiring and testing.

[nascarxx29]

Take one wire at a time.power distribution starts at battery thicker wire heaver load .its a road map of where it starts and stops.

[Lewis]

Okay, little more investigation and it's the alternator wire that is burning out, so I spent a little time observing the alternator and following the wires and the thick wire from the alternator runs directly to the negative on the battery! Just to add its got an internal regulator on the alternator well I think just because I haven't got a voltage regulator on the firewall! Getting there bit by bit appreciate all the help thanks people!

[Pete in NH]

Please double check that, the output of the alternator should go to the POSITIVE terminal of the battery. You may be looking at a ground wire someone added if it goes from the case of the alternator to the negative battery terminal. It sounds like the electrical system may have been heavily modified from the way it left the factory. In any case alternator output to negative battery terminal is just plain wrong and has likely damaged the alternator if it is truly wired that way.

[nascarxx29]

We need pictures bolt on alt connection heavy red + If it was reversed battery and electronics to ground should be looked at.If you had reverse polarity

[Lewis]

Okay I can get pictures tomorrow sorry the cars not with me right now, in had an engine change and I gather the wires have been mixed up by accident or someone not knowing what they are doing, I have a couple pictures I can post of the bulk head and other bits for now till I get clearer ones for you tomorrow, also I have a msd 6al box and the wire from that goes straight to the positive, just trying to figure out why I have so many wires on the battery terminal!

[Dino]

I can't believe that poor car didn't turn crispy already!  Just leave the battery disconnected and get the pictures uploaded before you do anything else.

[Lewis]

It's not letting me post any photos at this moment I'll try again soon, I know i was panicking when it nearly set alight, waited 3 months for it to turn up!

[Dino]

Yeah that's scary stuff.

In order to post pics here they have to be less than 200 KB in size and have a unique name.  Alternatively you can upload them to flicker or photobucket or something and post the link here.

[Lewis]

Ah okay I get ya, I'll give it a go

[Lewis]

/ I've added a couple of photos of the wires just so you can see the state its in haha https://www.flickr.com/photos/134173939@N07/?

[Dino]

Uninsulated, non stock connectors galore here!  The first pic shows a stock connector but obviously you have some serious resistance issues in these looms.

I hate to say it, but all that will have to go, the lot. 

I understand that import duties are an issue, former Belgian here, but new wiring is the way to go.  Are there any ways to reduce or circumvent the duties that you know of?  I used to have parts shipped to someone in the US who then repackaged them as gift so I only paid shipping, but that may no longer fly these days.   

You could also find a local company that can make the wiring for you, but with hourly wages being what they are you may end up paying even more.

You "can" make your own wiring but I don't recommend that's how you start your first electrical job.

[Lewis]

Okay I knew it had to go I was just tying to make it work at least once so I could hear the engine as I have never heard one before yet own one if you know what I mean! Yes there is a way, I could get it chipped to my work as we buy from big suppliers so I'll have to speak to my work and see if I could get it put in there with there bits! I'm going to insulate Al the wires it was just a temp fix till I know what the major cause is which I gather may be the alternator 

[Lewis]

Just to add most the wires in the photo are insulated now, those are before shots I haven't got any after shots I'll get those tomorrow for you!

[nascarxx29]

Thats bad start over or the wiring nightmare will never end,

[Lewis]

Okay I'm on it,  I've just added some photos of the car just realise you Have seen it!

[nascarxx29]

If the object was just to hear car run and make movable you could eliminate the rat nest you have and just run a few wires.In the meantime look a better harness

[nascarxx29]

Seen you pics car looks good power bulge hood buckets slapstick console air cond car.If the rest of is solid
and straight it deseserves better wiring

[Lewis]

Yeah that's all I wanted to do really, I knew I had to get a new harnes I was just trying to salvage what I could for the meantime so I could also find out what works and what doesn't to I could ship it over with the harnes an
D make the most of the import thanks yeah I'm really happy with it, it's also a rallye! Currently no air con as previous owner ripped it all out but was kind enough to leave it in the boot haha also cut air con wires in half rather than leave them! Yeah it's a 383 4 barrel Holley tuned up, 727 3 speed auto with roughly 80,000 on the clock but that doesn't really mean much now as its a different engine, originally 340magnum

[Lewis]

If your referring to the front wing as could be replace would it be the gap on top of it your talking about? It's because the bonnet is twisted left side of the bonnet goes down but right Sid just doesn't want to move which has resulted in it becoming twisted

[Pete in NH]

Wow, that wiring is a total mess. I agree with others that you will never be able to repair that wiring and have it be safe. You can see melted pins on the bulk head connectors. Honestly, I would rip it all out and start with new reproduction harnesses, both the engine and dash harnesses. I would also remove any and all wiring to the alternator until you can see if it is still a good alternator.

To just run the car, I would just wire a temporary starting circuit and just rewire the existing electronic ignition system. Both are relatively simple. I would just run it off the battery and recharge the battery with an external charger for now.

[Lewis]

Hello all, I have remove a lot of the wiring today as found a lot of it has loose ends, going to start again and buy a new on, any recommendations? Also the alternator wires were wired up as followed  thick red wire to negative on battery thin black wire to mysterious box on firewall then through grommet on firewall to bottom of accessory port on fuse block under cavity eight and another wire not sure about colour to no' 18 on bulkhead which is alternator on diagram, also I've uploaded a couple more photos, doe as any one know why I have 2 ballast is that correct I thought it was just one?

[nascarxx29]

Those loose crimp on terminal will cause resistance and heat up and melt plastic.

[nascarxx29]

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=23315.0

[Lewis]

Thanks for the link that's more than helpful!! Yeah everything s wrong driving me crazy! 

[nascarxx29]

Your voltage regulator look like a pre 70 type. Used up till 1969.  http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/161628222822?lpid=82&chn=ps&ul_ref=http%253A%252F%252Frover.ebay.com%252Frover%252F1%252F711-117182-37290-0%252F2%253Fmtid%253D1588%2526kwid%253D1%2526crlp%253D53601919689_324272%2526itemid%253D161628222822%2526targetid%253D124316419929%2526rpc%253D0.18%2526rpc_upld_id%253D52763%2526rlsatarget%253D%2526device%253Dt%2526mpre%253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.ebay.com%25252Fitm%25252Flike%25252F161628222822%25253Flpid%25253D82%252526chn%25253Dps%2526adtype%253Dpla%2526gclid%253DCNiE59KM8sYCFYsRHwodm-8D8g%2526srcrot%253D711-117182-37290-0%2526rvr_id%253D872140425681

[Lewis]

Should I have a voltage regulated? On a built in regulator alternator? Also a 4 pin ballast and a 2 pin ballast? I thought it was one or the other not both correct me if I'm wrong still learning

[nascarxx29]

Your choice you can get a one wire alternator with built in voltage regulator. But stock set up was voltage regulator and 2 field alternator you should have the 4 connection ballast earlier years used 2

[Lewis]

Okay that makes sense, I don't have a proper voltage regulator I don't know what it is really it has one wire going in and one coming out to the fuse box, I gather they put the 2 pin ballast in with the engine because it's an older engine, I'm just trying to figure out how all the wires are wired up, is it possible
To have 2 ballast's then? Don't understand why you would have 2

[nascarxx29]

Old cars use 2 prong connections later years went to 4 as  electronic ignition came out late 72

[nascarxx29]

Hard to be sure in pictures but does the wiper
motor have a ballast attached earlier years did for the wiper motor

[Pete in NH]

If you're going to keep this car I strongly suggest you get a copy of the original Dodge Factory Service Manuals. They are often available on EBay in the original book form or as electronic copies on CD's .You're at the beginning of a long journey with your car and the manuals will help you understand its systems and answer many of your questions as you study the manuals.

I still have no idea of what some one was trying to do with the alternator the way you describe the wiring. If in the end you go back to the Chrysler alternator the correct regulator is the one listed in the EBay posting above in this thread.

[Lewis]

I'll follow the wiring on the second ballast! And yeah I have the manual all 1000+ pages of it, I just fine people on here explain the awnsers better to the questions the manual doesn't have! I'm going to need to start from scratch haha now I just want to see if the engine works then once I hear it I'll rip all the wires out and start again!

[ODZKing]

I agree, the service manual sometimes is ridiculously stupid.  At one time I simply wanted to know how to remove the tail lamp assembly. NOWHERE in there does it say you have to remove the bumper to get them off.  Simply says "remove from bumper", that's a big help.
Schematics are OK if you are fairly good at reading one, which I am not. Being colorblind and wires having faded over the years doesn't help either.
I found a very nice 73 dash and wire harness at Carlisle a couple years ago since the wiring under my dash is a mess as well. One of the key things to look for is if the connector is discolored in the way of looking burnt.  If it isn't, it will most likely be good.
This is a job I have been putting off as well, not looking forward to it.    

[Lewis]

Yeah that's the problem I'm having! That's great I'm from the UK so there's next to none shows or events round my area, just want to hear it hahah! So tomorrow I am going to wire up what I need just for the engine to work and disconnect/ remove everything else that I don't need for now or buts that are burnt and see what I can do, just a complete mess at the moment, plus cannot take dash out just doesn't what to budge all screws are out but still nothing! And steering wheel is seized on cannot get that off to haha

[Lewis]

I got it started!!!! Sounds amazing!

[Pete in NH]

Congratulations on the start up! 383's are great engines, I love mine in my 71.

You're going to need a steering wheel puller to get he wheel off. Are you using one to try to get the wheel off? I've never had one not come off with a puller.

[Dino]

Awesome!   

383's are great, I loved the one in my '68.  A very strong and reliable engine.  Gas mileage sucks though... 

Yep you definitely need a puller to get the steering wheel off, don't waste your time banging on the back of it, it only ends up hurting!   

They're around $15-20 around here and come with a few sizes of bolts to fit most wheels.  Of course, it may be a bit harder to find over there but google its construction, it's easy to rig one up if needed. 

[Lewis]

Sounds amazing so happy it's a start! Back of the engine smoking when engine left on idle for longer than 10 secs need to figure what that is, also only idles on acceleration and it cuts out so I'm thinking jets and the little tower with to holes that puts the fuel in the primary's? Not enough fuel getting in in time? But getting there, I spent about 20 mins trying to get it off before I came to the conclusion I need a puller, I was thinking of making one since I used to work in engineering so figured I'd make one easier than spending hours trying to locate the right one over here

[nascarxx29]

There is on back of engine a oil pressure sender could be that maybe valve cover leaking.?

[nascarxx29]

Carb check motor off move throttle lever look for sqirt inside carb if accelerator pump or fuel pump is not right you wont be able to idle .idle can also be vacuum leak or timing.or carb idle adjustment needed

[Lewis]

I'll check that actually could be oil burnin it's that sort of smell! I looked in the carb and it squirts but not straight away so I have a feeling it's not putting enough fuel in, I don't know if this matters but it's a lot colder over here so am I going to need bigger jets and the little squirting tower bigger so I get more fuel in to keep it going, also no choke or choke lever the flat bit on top of the carb is missing, don't I need that to control out the amount of air going in so I get the right air to fuel ratio? Carbs aren't my strong point!

[Lewis]

If it's not to much trouble could somebody post a picture of their starter relay, mines wired up wrong and looking at the wiring diagram I've kind of figured it out but just want to make sure, mine starter relay at the ment is just being bypassed don't know why but it's not how it's meant to be!

[ODZKing]

 

[Lewis]

Thank you that's so helpful!!!!! I can re wire mine now!

[Nacho-RT74]

I love wiring!!! well, mostly.

The big problem on the pics you posted is the lack of individual parts available.

Ign switch for example. Plug comes with new assemblies, but not the plug on underdash harness section.

Being outside USA makes even harder. I usually have to reuse old harnesses I'm able to find around and restore terminals. Sometimes even use Glue to keep terminals on cavity.

For underdash harnesses, you can find easily good condition ones in $80-150 rate on ebay. If you are a handyman, you can even get a standard cluster underdash harness which are the ones usually going cheaper and reuse the needed parts and wires. Wires usually ca be replaced from end to end once you remove all the tape, and will save from splices, making a cleaner job, but of course is time consuming. Personally I get fun making that, don't know you.

For engine harness is true that get a full harness is the best investment. This is usally the worst of all the car due the heat. Used ones around can be complete and unhacked, BUT still dried.

Forward light harness use to be find in really good conditions. They are easy to fix to. Hard to find a really bad section on these.

Another good investment is the tranny one. Gets damaged for the heat too, and individual plugs price to rebuild usually gets higher than the full harness itself, so go for a new harness.

CONSIDER THE YEAR of each harness. All 71/74s gots differences. Some are minor, some are big. 72/73 are the closers ones

[Nacho-RT74]

and honestly... I don't see a big deal on what you found, but the tipical weak spots. Alternator wire on bulkhead, ignition switch plug... I bet scarving more you'll find ammeter studs rusted and wires arriving melted, AC/Heater Blower lever plug must be melted, Red battery wire on back of bulkhead close to be melt. Some are able to be saved for future upgrades, but the first step is get it to original stock conditions and restart from there. That's what I would do at least.

One first advice... upgrade the alt for a good iddle output power ( able to give no less than 45 IDDLING if needed, but more if you can ) AND splice any new accesory to alt stud NEVER TO BATT ( that's a big mistake on ammeter equiped cars ) or get a buss/junction point between alt and ammeter to power everything added. Just like factory did on fusebox where the batt buss is actually an alt buss, just linked with the batt through the ammeter

[Nacho-RT74]

BTW, the plug in your hand... I can't think on anyhing around using that plug. Just Proportioning valve brakes block and water temp sender uses to use that kind of plug/terminal ( temp sender being angled )

[Lewis]

Thanks that's really helpful, just trying to fix it all and find a way which is easier and cost effective, main problem is bulk head I have bypassed a few wires due to bulkhead melted which makes it harder to identify wires as they are not numbered so got to label them all, it's got a 68 engine in it so what do I do regarding engine Harness do I buy a 73 or a 68 harness? And yes possitive to bulkhead is a mess! Cannot plug battery in with alternator wired in just starts melting so I am currently running a car with no alternator till I figure out what's going on! Also back of dash is pretty neat no rusting/ loose wires it's all in amazing shape it's everything underneath that, I don't know a lot about the 73 as I bought to learn so it's a struggle one thing I am confused about is that all the other rallye dash's I have seen have a clock on the right next to the speedometer but mines an alternator so is it not s rallye dash? Also the plug I don't know what it does I thought it was something to do with the air con it's also wired up to the part just below to the left not sure what it is! Thanks for the help

[Pete in NH]

I would get a 73 harness. You might have a few emission control wires for things on a 73 that you won't have a place to use on a 68 engine but, that shouldn't matter.

[Lewis]

Okay that's great thank you! Going to do a carb rebuild on the weekend! And flush the tank and maybe replace the fuel lines!

[Nacho-RT74]

71 and lates harnesses are TOTALLY diff monsters... in fact 71 to 74s even allmost same car, got changes too

[Lewis]

Okay what sort of changes? Are they big differences?

[Nacho-RT74]

on a quick over view

71...
-3 pins driver side door jam switch accomodating diff signals to accesories like ign key warning buzzer, lights on buzzer and dome light
- two pieces wiper switch plugs ( for diff switch althought same wires )
- seatbelt warning light ( if equipped ) controled by the time delay flasher same as ign key courtesy light
- no NSS ground signal into the cab

72...
-1 piece wiper switch plug
-2 prongs door jam switch provision ( warning buzzers shares same prong source this time )
-ground from NSS to drive seatbelts relay warning system, and all the wiring related to this. Includes buzzer for this and separated light from the previous setup

73...
-all Same as above.
-Less plugs for accesories not anymore available... one accesories mold source instead two, deleted provision for concelead lamp harness.

74...
-is a WAY DIFF harness monster due the interlock system, although can be used with a little job.

beside this, some wires where turned around on bulhead.

Also there is a Change on AC harness between 71/72 and 73/74. Both drives same wires BUT plugs to control switch change.

If you try to get a new one, search for 72/73 which are the more similars ( considering if rally or standard cluster of course ), and CHECK your engine bay wiring setup just to be sure. I recall there is not a difference btween them BUT just in case.


For donor parts, any 71/74 harness should work to rebuilt your one, even these mentioned differences. Some of them are REALLY easy to save.

[Lewis]

Okay wow I probably would of never picked up on those things, thanks for the help it'll make it easier now for me to get what I'm looking for my dodge chargers build date 72 but I've been told it's a 73 can that be true ?

[Nacho-RT74]

its a 73, definitelly.

[1974dodgecharger]

take your time and find the, 'main' power line that goes into the car once you can find that line and trace it all together everything comes off that line.  Like everyone saids our cars are pretty simple when it comes to electrical system.  Here was my electrical mess I dealt with, but I was able to find a schematic everything and I traced it all out and found what each wire did what.  Don't ask me if I remember it though...


just re-read the thread again....good job

[Lewis]

Thanks great photo! I will be stripping the wiring soon as in taking away a lot of wiring I don't need, so all lights on interior except from Dan I will be removing easier to add at a later date, also is there a website that sells the slapstick console piece with the numbers of which gear you are in my has faded really bad and has fallen to pieces so need a new one, can't seem to find one anywhere!

[Pete in NH]

Lewis,

Go to mymopar.com and look under MyMopar Tools & Reference Categories. Under Parts and Accessory Books You will find a 1973 parts book down load it. Once you learn how to use it you will find the factory parts numbers for any part you need for your car. With that part number you can begin looking for the part. Sites like partsvoice.com are very handy for finding obsolete parts.

You 1973 could have been built anytime between the late summer of 1972 and spring of 1973. That was the way model years run back then.

[Lewis]

Thank you Pete that was so helpful!!! It was build if I'm correct late summer 1972

[ODZKing]

Lewis,

Go to mymopar.com and look under MyMopar Tools & Reference Categories. Under Parts and Accessory Books You will find a 1973 parts book down load it. Once you learn how to use it you will find the factory parts numbers for any part you need for your car. With that part number you can begin looking for the part. Sites like partsvoice.com are very handy for finding obsolete parts.

You 1973 could have been built anytime between the late summer of 1972 and spring of 1973. That was the way model years run back then.

I have a clean printable copy on my website as well Lewis.
http://www.retrorarities.com/ChargerInfo.htm
http://www.retrorarities.com/images/73MoparPartsCatalog.zip
http://www.retrorarities.com/images/73DodgeServiceManual.zip

[Lewis]

Ah okay thanks for all the help guys! Don't know why I would do with out it!!