ebay/confederate flag ban

[skip68]

Ok Ponch, hopefully you're right and this is where it ends.   But I think this is going to open up more problems than just leaving it alone.  I fully understand it's a glass half full or half empty.   You're the half full optimistic and I'm the half empty skeptical guy.   You say at this moment we aren't having our rights violated.  You are correct.   I'm saying this action by retailers and government is sending a negative message to the public that the confederate flag is hateful, offensive and wrong/bad/evil.   I feel it's wrong to cheapen the lives that were lost in that church by focusing on a flag and using their deaths as a tool to attack the confederate flag.    There is no direct link other than a sick piece of white trash that should get the death penalty IMO.  

Back in the day slavery was socially acceptable.   Not all owners were bad and most all of the southern confederates were good folks.  They were just like us.   We've evolved since then.    

I'm going to say we're both right and let this die.   

[ws23rt]

If I may creep in on this one

Is it not true that the real bottom line goes beyond what the current flavor of government says we are entitled to?

We all live with a plethora of regulations that are intended to give us "rights".  The intent of those regulations/laws is to give the gov a way to ultimately make a decision to settle a conflict.

We all will live our lives as we see fit and break laws every day. The questions of right vs wrong are moral questions and move with the flow of changing social preference.

I had a conversation with an old life long friend (he has passed).  ---My thinking is/was that right vs wrong seemed to be an easy thing to reconcile with logic.  My friend Bob showed to me how logic was out of place in the conversation.  I moved to a conversation about good vs bad. ---We talked long about this and ended up with something like relativity.---The place that we sit tells us something that is not what can be seen from another vantage point.

One can argue until blue (B5 ) but another's point of view is what it is. The term relativity essentially speaks to apparent facts (good, bad, right ,wrong, etc) being different only by the point from which they are observed.

[Old Moparz]

Ok Ponch, hopefully you're right and this is where it ends.   But I think this is going to open up more problems than just leaving it alone.  I fully understand it's a glass half full or half empty.   You're the half full optimistic and I'm the half empty skeptical guy.   You say at this moment we aren't having our rights violated.  You are correct.   I'm saying this action by retailers and government is sending a negative message to the public that the confederate flag is hateful, offensive and wrong/bad/evil.   I feel it's wrong to cheapen the lives that were lost in that church by focusing on a flag and using their deaths as a tool to attack the confederate flag.    There is no direct link other than a sick piece of white trash that should get the death penalty IMO.  

Back in the day slavery was socially acceptable.   Not all owners were bad and most all of the southern confederates were good folks.  They were just like us.   We've evolved since then.    

I'm going to say we're both right and let this die.    

Not all slave owners were bad? That's like saying not all child molesters were bad because some gave their kids toys while they kept them locked in the cellar between each diddling. I understand your point but it's a bit off. Owning a person was always wrong & society overwhelmingly agreed & abolished it. Of course some folks kicked & screamed about it & it became one of several reasons for the Civil War.

As far as the flag goes, I said earlier that I personally don't care one way or the other about the flag. It doesn't offend me & I have no plans to fly one. I never gave much credence to any type of symbol because I don't need one to remind me what I value. I also don't worry about putting something on display to show others what I value. It doesn't mean I have no respect for something, whether it's a flag, a statue, a monument or whatever. An idea or a thought is more powerful than a piece of cloth or a stone will ever be. I do value what a majority wants, so when a majority decides that the flag is offensive, it should not be displayed on publicly owned property. Same goes for religious quotes & references because one size does not fit all.

I still have faith that this country will get better than it has been the last 30 or so years. The constitution will be fine & people will still be able to go on waving flags or wearing white hoods if they want to. What was once accepted by society & deemed normal, like smoking anywhere you felt like smoking, changes when the majority of people want it to change. If the majority of people decide that the Confederate flag is offensive & doesn't belong on public property, then it goes. We still have something that resembles a Democracy so if the majority feel that the flag needs to go back up you'll see it in the next election for the SC governor.

[JB400]

Sorry, but I'm going to agree with Skip about the slave owners.  While owning a person is criminal, there were owners that did recognize this, and would allow their slaves to buy their freedom, and would also try to reunite them with their families.

Another thing that hasn't been brought up, is slavery was actually on the way out at the time of the Civil War.  With the advent of the Industrial Revolution, it wasn't profitable to be a slave owner.  Machines were just starting to replace people, aka. cotton gin.  It would have been a matter of time before the slavery issue would have extinguished itself.

[skip68]

That's right.  The entire south wasn't evil like child molesters.   Yes there was lots of bad ones and all were wrong to think they could own them like property but it was a different time.   

[Old Moparz]

I understand all that, but I have no doubt that slavery would still be around today based on how some company owners operate their businesses. There is even an elected official dumb enough to have said that by eliminating the minimum wage the economy would get better because everyone could have a job. Greed is permanent & will never go away.

[ws23rt]

When the majority speaks ---that voice comes from what the current breathing majority is exposed to when they wake up on any given day added to what is fast receding from their/our minds from the preceding day. --observation---

I too am optimistic about our future but can find no way to justify my sense.

It could very well be that we are like a frog in warm water.--The temp can be raised slowly and we will die. --I think we will feel the heat in time to jump out.

[Old Moparz]

When the majority speaks ---that voice comes from what the current breathing majority is exposed to when they wake up on any given day added to what is fast receding from their/our minds from the preceding day. --observation---

I too am optimistic about our future but can find no way to justify my sense.

It could very well be that we are like a frog in warm water.--The temp can be raised slowly and we will die. --I think we will feel the heat in time to jump out.

I agree, but you do realize what you will have by not allowing the majority to rule, right?

There is a big problem with what people "think" is going on. The media is not covering everything & I have a strong feeling that by the time the next major recession hits there will be no way to hide the news. Not even hide it from the braindead who have been on the edge of their seats waiting to see & hear what one of the Kardashians may do or say next. Social media & the disenfranchised younger people (which now outnumber baby boomers) will be the ones calling the shots. It's going to be a good thing & long overdue because the system has been broken for a long time & needs a major overhaul that isn't going to be subtle.

[ws23rt]

When the majority speaks ---that voice comes from what the current breathing majority is exposed to when they wake up on any given day added to what is fast receding from their/our minds from the preceding day. --observation---

I too am optimistic about our future but can find no way to justify my sense.

It could very well be that we are like a frog in warm water.--The temp can be raised slowly and we will die. --I think we will feel the heat in time to jump out.

I agree, but you do realize what you will have by not allowing the majority to rule, right?

There is a big problem with what people "think" is going on. The media is not covering everything & I have a strong feeling that by the time the next major recession hits there will be no way to hide the news. Not even hide it from the braindead who have been on the edge of their seats waiting to see & hear what one of the Kardashians may do or say next. Social media & the disenfranchised younger people (which now outnumber baby boomers) will be the ones calling the shots. It's going to be a good thing & long overdue because the system has been broken for a long time & needs a major overhaul that isn't going to be subtle.

We do think alike.---And not allowing the majority to rule is futile in the long run.

Maybe my optimistic sense comes from the current ability for the masses to know what's happening in real time. (aside from the media). This is new and very different from all of our past history.

Most of those that we hire to work on our behalf are still living in a time warp that is not only dealing with yesterdays problems. They can't independently think on their feet well enough to step out of their own way.

[Back N Black]

Sorry, but I'm going to agree with Skip about the slave owners.  While owning a person is criminal, there were owners that did recognize this, and would allow their slaves to buy their freedom, and would also try to reunite them with their families.

Another thing that hasn't been brought up, is slavery was actually on the way out at the time of the Civil War.  With the advent of the Industrial Revolution, it wasn't profitable to be a slave owner.  Machines were just starting to replace people, aka. cotton gin.  It would have been a matter of time before the slavery issue would have extinguished itself.

Wow! That was nice of the white master to let their slaves buy their freedom.  Slavery was on the way out because it wasn't profitable, not because it was wrong to own another human being because it wasn't profitable. 

[skip68]

[quote author=Back N Black link=topic=118525.msg1470713#msg1470713 date=14353255 Slavery was on the way out because it wasn't profitable, not because it was wrong to own another human being because it wasn't profitable.  
[/quote]  

Yep. That's why so many marriages don't last like they used to.  Because we can't own the women anymore.   

[Ponch ®]

Yep. That's why so many marriages don't last like they used to.  Because we can't own the women anymore.   

but they can own us...

[skip68]

So so sad but true.   

[Mike DC]

           
LOL isn't that the truth!

---------------------------


Majority rule isn't a wonderful system either.  It's "two wolves and a sheep taking a vote on what to eat for dinner."

[Silver R/T]

Rebel flag is a piece of history. Don't ban it just cause of some crackhead looney kid.

[Ponch ®]

Rebel flag is a piece of history. Don't ban it just cause of some crackhead looney kid.

no one is banning anything.

states are choosing to remove it from official property and non-governmental entities are electing not to sell stuff with it. BIG difference.

[el dub]

Rebel flag is a piece of history. Don't ban it just cause of some crackhead looney kid.

no one is banning anything.

states are choosing to remove it from official property and non-governmental entities are electing not to sell stuff with it. BIG difference.

In other words it is effectively banned. 

[JB400]

I guess it's on equal terms than.  The Black community has their own flag, and it's not displayed much either.

[Ponch ®]

Rebel flag is a piece of history. Don't ban it just cause of some crackhead looney kid.

no one is banning anything.

states are choosing to remove it from official property and non-governmental entities are electing not to sell stuff with it. BIG difference.

In other words it is effectively banned. 

how?

[Mike DC]

  
The lines of opinion don't split along racial divisions.  There are majorities but its nowhere near total agreement.  The movement against the flag has plenty of white proponents.  It doesn't have every black vote.  



Also, I think it needs reminding that this is not another Michael Brown shooting --> Ferguson riots.  

This time the story IS clear.  The shooter IS racist.  The victims ARE innocent.  And the state DID conspicuously leave one flag at full-mast afterwards. 

[John_Kunkel]

Owning a person was always wrong & society overwhelmingly agreed & abolished it.

So, the Bible condoning slavery and actually giving instructions to slave owners was "bad"? Hmmmmm.  

[oldcarnut]

When the majority speaks or decides???  Somehow I guess my ballot to vote on the issue or any other was not presented to me.  As I see it, the ones deciding are not the majority but the ones with the loudest voice, or the most  money, and the most advantageous to appease for votes.  You want a majority vote--put it out there to be voted on individually. Washington officials serve for the dollar and votes to stay in office and not the majority wishes and views of the people.  Then there is the excuse that it's on public owned property and does not represent all the people.  Neither do the monuments dedicated to black only or any other race history. The compromise deal was struck years ago for the flag removal off the State House to the place it's at now.  In return, it was agreed by the leaders of all there was to be a monument dedicated to the African American history. A couple didn't like it and have used this unfortunate instance to promote their own agenda. Take it all off or leave it alone. I was born in the UK with English family being on my mothers side and I have my last name on Confederate grave markers in my grandfathers family graveyard in GA. I could go either way on this if it was a real majority of the peoples decisions as it's not a racist feeling on my viewpoint.  I am aggravated not because it's the flag, but it's another knee jerk opportunistic pandering cave in for votes from special interests stirring up emotions. It's a feel good thing Kumbaya flavor of the month, won't change any attitudes, but add a stepping stone for something else to be targeted. Every day this society is getting so protective of "that's offensive to me" that we are trying to bubble wrap everything to keep poor so-n-so from getting their feelings hurt and it's a one way street for any compromise. We can't say this word or wear these clothes or voice our true feelings because there might be somebody out looking for an excuse to use it for doing something to somebody. Let's force this action legal (gay marriage and etc.)  because a few people want it despite what the majority feel about it. How about let's ban alcohol. It kills more people than that flag ever inspires to do. It destroys families everyday. It causes people to lose control of their emotions and want to fight and hurt somebody even their own friends. I could go on and on but I like my wine coolers and banning it didn't work either. Hey, for a change lets try putting on our big girl panties, quit whining, and if you don't like what's on the channel, don't watch it. Yes we as a nation have far more important issues to work on but those don't get people voting for the leaders if they even fall under that name anymore. A few things not said about this while placing all this on the racist white folks. http://conservative-headlines.com/2012/03/americas-first-slave-owner-was-a-black-man/   The slaves were held by the black race too.  The first slave owner was a black man and black people caught and sold slaves but the focus is driven by the few on the white side of things.  

[oldcarnut]

 
The lines of opinion... And the state DID conspicuously leave one flag at full-mast afterwards. 

The state did not do it conspicuously.  Monuments fall under a different set of rules and have to pass a law or votes before they can be changed.  In this case and similar there are no provisions for allowed lowering it half mast for a death as the other flags were.

[Mike DC]

The state did not do it conspicuously.  Monuments fall under a different set of rules and have to pass a law or votes before they can be changed.  In this case and similar there are no provisions for allowed lowering it half mast for a death as the other flags were.

Do they leave that Confederate flag "monument" flying in a rainstorm?  Or in the dark?  How do they fold & handle it when it occasionally isn't on the pole for some reason?

I don't know.  But I'm guessing they probably treat that CBF like a "flag" rather than a "monument" in every other way.





Like I said before, they simply should have known better IMO.  If you're going to have monuments that are controversial then some common-sense care needs to be taken at times like this.  I doubt there was literally any hurtful intent when they failed to lower that CBF.  But the fact that they didn't even think or decide to do it, is telling about the mindset.  And that is a lot of what has people so up-in-arms about it now.  

[oldcarnut]

The flag has never been down since raised.  Even if they thought about it, there was no way for the legislature to meet and pass a vote to lower it on time.

"By law, it must fly at a height of 30 feet," she said. "Any changes — taken down, or even at half-staff, if that can be done — must be passed by a supermajority of the General Assembly."

South Carolina's Code of Laws allows the governor to order the lowering of the state and U.S. flags flying atop the capitol building to half-staff, which Gov. Nikki Haley has done. But according to her spokesperson, it's the Legislature, not the governor, who has the legal authority to alter the Confederate flag. Title 1 Chapter 10 of state law spells it out:


"The flag authorized to be flown at a designated location on the grounds of the Capitol Complex is the South Carolina Infantry Battle Flag of the Confederate States of America. This flag must be flown on a flagpole located at a point on the south side of the Confederate Soldier Monument, centered on the monument, 10 feet from the base of the monument at a height of 30 feet."


"The provisions of this section may only be amended or repealed upon passage of an act which has received a two-thirds vote on the third reading of the bill in each branch of the General Assembly."

The two-thirds vote applies to both permanent changes and temporary adjustments alike, according to the Democratic State Rep. James E. Smith.

The Confederate flag has been displayed at its current location since 2000, when the state passed the Heritage Act, a compromise that removed the flag from its place of sovereignty atop the capitol but allowed it to remain on the grounds. (The same piece of legislation also requires a two-third's vote by the General Assembly to make changes to Civil Rights monuments.)

While the flag can be lowered physically, no one we spoke to could recall a time -- be it Memorial Day or 9/11 -- when it wasn't flying at full-staff.
www.politifact.com