So who's taking the flag off their Chargers?

[Ponch ®]

Does anyone anywhere actually look at a flag or symbol and magically transform into a racist? The only time a symbol has power is when someone else is offended by it.  Go ahead and ban the rebel flag if you need but it will not eliminate racism.  It wont even make a dent in it.  It will of course reinforce the idea in the minds of the mindless that it must somehow be a symbol of bad and give the racists something to rally around and by doing so help their brainless cause.  The best thing people who are offended by a symbol can do is ignore it.  Before long there will be a new offensive symbol for the offended to be upset over and there will be great debate over that too and once again, the only ones smiling about it will be ones who adopted it.
I say ignore the symbols and it takes away the power of the symbol.

its a valid point, but its kinda hard to ignore it when its flying over the state capitol or on license plates.

Again, would you feel the same way if you saw someone driving around in a Toyota truck with an ISIS flag? Or remember the outrage when they wanted to build a mosque near Ground Zero because it was offensive given the nature of the 9/11 attacks?. hey, just ignore them, right?

[skip68]

You're wrong Ponch.   My son buys most of his games at Wal-Mart and they are rated R/Mature with advisories just like the movies and CD's.  
I'm bringing up freedom of speech basically because it's relevant because once this starts it opens the door.
Every culture has its good and bad.  At some point people in a troubled race must stop making excuses, pointing blame at symbols and recognize that they have to take some responsibility for their own failures.  Do you EVER hear whites crying on the news or the media shouting racism when a white is murdered by a black?   Just last night on the Vegas news channel 3 was talking about a innocent young white women murdered by a couple black guys.  This happens every day but we aren't screaming race.  Where's our Jesse Jackson?

I do hear you Ponch and understand what you're saying but this is opening the doors that should never be opened.  

[Ponch ®]

You're wrong Ponch.   My son buys most of his games at Wal-Mart and they are rated R/Mature with advisories just like the movies and CD's.

yeah, you can buy those there, but even those are the edited / "cleaned up" versions. Believe you me, I once bought a White Zombie CD with a bunch of stuff cut out. Remember when they wouldn't sell Nirvana records because of the song "rape me"? Have you tried finding a Maxim magazine there lately?

 
I'm bringing up freedom of speech basically because it's relevant because once this starts it opens the door.
Every culture has its good and bad.  At some point people in a troubled race must stop making excuses, pointing blame at symbols and recognize that they have to take some responsibility for their own failures.  Do you EVER hear whites crying on the news or the media shouting racism when a white is murdered by a black?   Just last night on the Vegas news channel 3 was talking about a innocent young white women murdered by a couple black guys.  This happens every day but we aren't screaming race.  Where's our Jesse Jackson?

I do hear you Ponch and understand what you're saying but this is opening the doors that should never be opened.  

I agree that race/racism is overattributted to a lot of things that happen. And no, you don't see white people "crying in the news" about race....but you do see a lot of what you (sorry man, gotta call you out on this one) and a lot of people on this thread are doing: they go to the hypothetical "what if it was the other way around" and start whining about how hard it is to be a white guy and how theres so much bias against white people and so on....again, its the 'victim' mentality, transposed.

[Ghoste]

Understand fully what you are saying Ponch and yes, I would be offended by those things, angry actually, but I stand by my statement.  We need to take the power away.  That state capitol sure as hell isnt flying to proclaim they are racists so for them to cave on the flag, the racist wins and only the racist.  Arguably the offended person wins but I think my opinion on that would be easy enough to guess.

[skip68]

This is not a freedom of speech issue. Like I said earlier, no one is telling you that you can't fly or display the flag.

OH yes they are.   Not officially yet but they're sending the message that it's a bad thing.  

[Ponch ®]

This is not a freedom of speech issue. Like I said earlier, no one is telling you that you can't fly or display the flag.

OH yes they are.   Not officially yet but they're sending the message that it's a bad thing.  

Who is they?

There is a difference between social acceptability and government oppression. You're free to wear a "f--k you you f---g f---k" t-shirt in a public park around families with children...but would you? You can have the rebel flag on your car, and fly it from your house, and wear it on t-shirts..but don't act all surprised or be naive when you find out that people think you may be racist (even if you're not).

[Ponch ®]

Understand fully what you are saying Ponch and yes, I would be offended by those things, angry actually, but I stand by my statement.  We need to take the power away.  That state capitol sure as hell isnt flying to proclaim they are racists so for them to cave on the flag, the racist wins and only the racist.  Arguably the offended person wins but I think my opinion on that would be easy enough to guess.

and you can make the argument (which in fact, was the argument) that the mosque near Ground Zero wasn't there to proclaim victory on 9/11, but rather as a peaceful place of worship. But it was still offensive to a lot of people.

[skip68]

You're right Ponch about the other way around statement.   In general, us crackers have had an easier paved life.   You are 100% correct.  
I guess I'm just saying they need to find better methods.   These tactics will not improve their lives and it shouldn't be allowed.  
Dam you Ponch for having a voice of reason.    

[Ponch ®]

You're right Ponch about the other way around statement.   In general, us crackers have had an easier paved life.   You are 100% correct.  
I guess I'm just saying they need to find better methods.   These tactics will not improve their lives and it shouldn't be allowed.  
Dam you Ponch for having a voice of reason.    

I see it from both sides. I've been having this same argument against my liberal friends (about how its stupid to assume that somehow the shooting wouldn't have happened if the flag hadn't been there, how this is politicized to push certain agendas, etc) and Ive been equally pissing them off.

[sunfire69]

Your right Skip....we have started down a slippery slope...give me what I want or I will "burn this town down"....people will try and explain it away but we have seen it already this spring and we will continue to see it...as some have said " I really don't care about the flag one way or another" but sooner or later something they do care about will be lost and a lot of people will stand around wondering how happened.....What if a environmentalist group managed to gain major influence with our government  How about "no motor vehicle with an engine displacement over 250 cu will be allowed on any public or private road"...or " no vehicle in excess of 15 years old will be permitted to operate in the state of (pick one)"..then we would have a consensus on here.....No Skip we are already headed to a bad place my friend....

[Calif240]

Luckily, my graphics are magnetic... So I'll probablybremove them for a while until the next flavor of the politically correct month hits. Slavery and Racism are horrible. I Think it's attrocious that someone would kill 9 innocent people, let alone 9 kind, welcoming individuals in a church.

I grew up with very little racism around me and so the flag doesn't represent that to me. It represents one of my favorite shows (one that portrayed zero racism). I think it is offensive depending on the way it is flown. If someone flies it out of respect for their family that fought... Zero issue. If they fly it while wearing a white robe, I'm offended. Understand that the south seceded just as the U.S. did from England. George Washington was a traitor if you say that Robert ELee was a traitor. Lastly, slavery was a reason for SOME to secede, The states listed it as a reason. However, prominent figures such as General Lee (more popular and revered than Jefferson Davis) had negative views of slavery...

"There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil" - RE Lee 1856.

[Ponch ®]

Your right Skip....we have started down a slippery slope...give me what I want or I will "burn this town down"....people will try and explain it away but we have seen it already this spring and we will continue to see it...as some have said " I really don't care about the flag one way or another" but sooner or later something they do care about will be lost and a lot of people will stand around wondering how happened.....What if a environmentalist group managed to gain major influence with our government  How about "no motor vehicle with an engine displacement over 250 cu will be allowed on any public or private road"...or " no vehicle in excess of 15 years old will be permitted to operate in the state of (pick one)"..then we would have a consensus on here.....No Skip we are already headed to a bad place my friend....

Slippery Slope arguments are inherently fallacious.

[sunfire69]

You say so.....I respect that....but history proves otherwise....

[Ghoste]

Understand fully what you are saying Ponch and yes, I would be offended by those things, angry actually, but I stand by my statement.  We need to take the power away.  That state capitol sure as hell isnt flying to proclaim they are racists so for them to cave on the flag, the racist wins and only the racist.  Arguably the offended person wins but I think my opinion on that would be easy enough to guess.

and you can make the argument (which in fact, was the argument) that the mosque near Ground Zero wasn't there to proclaim victory on 9/11, but rather as a peaceful place of worship. But it was still offensive to a lot of people.

Well, if the Aryan Brotherhood or some other group of morons wanted to ERECT a confederate flag at the site of this shooting to proclaim victory THAT would be offensive.  Before you accuse me of hypocrisy though, my argument is that in the case of the mosque at Ground Zero or a hypothetical flag raising at the shooting/murder scene or a swastika painted by vandals on a building at Dachau (I've been there btw, if you want to really force yourself to think about racism and genocide and who is privileged and who is just whining etc. go there), those are forced incidents of provocation.  Ignoring them in that context wouldn't help.  I'm having difficulty finding the right words to explain my position here but ultimately I am talking about denying power to symbols and I guess I see different ways of doing that.  By having a wide scale knee jerk reaction in this case I see only benefit to the ones who want that flag appropriated for their desires.  Had the murderer (I don't even want to personify the scum) draped the innocent with flags and posted it on facebook, to me that would merit pushing back.  His own facebook photo with the flag should have been pulled not broadcast beyond his personal circle of viewers.  His facebook photo should be made a subject of ridicule in my view.

[skip68]

I'm torn about the Isis flag comment Ponch.    I almost don't have a answer but here's the best I can do.  
Isis is a real threat and current threat to our nation.  
The confederate flag is part of history from 170 years ago and not a threat to anyone.  I'm sorry if somebody is so thin skinned that it offends them.  That's their problem if they want to read more into it.  
It's a historical flag and not the official kkk flag.   If groups like the kkk or lone idiots like that gunman that killed those church folks use it wrong and for evil there's nothing we can do about it.    Trying to take it away is sending the message that it is for evil and we're bowing down as cowards afraid of retaliation.   Just makes the bad stronger.   
Just like north Korea scared the movie industry.   I'm still embarrassed by that.  We let them tell us what to do like cowards. 

[Ghoste]

As an image used on a Charger in a television show such as the DOH, I would argue that leaving it on is an opportunity to show hate groups that its a family image not a symbol for hate.
Then again, a lot of those clowns are also of the opinion that their vision of the world is acutally wholesome.  Islamic fundamentalists think the same of their vision too.
Much too complex a part of humanity to punish a car.

[bull]

Does anyone anywhere actually look at a flag or symbol and magically transform into a racist? The only time a symbol has power is when someone else is offended by it.  Go ahead and ban the rebel flag if you need but it will not eliminate racism.  It wont even make a dent in it.  It will of course reinforce the idea in the minds of the mindless that it must somehow be a symbol of bad and give the racists something to rally around and by doing so help their brainless cause.  The best thing people who are offended by a symbol can do is ignore it.  Before long there will be a new offensive symbol for the offended to be upset over and there will be great debate over that too and once again, the only ones smiling about it will be ones who adopted it.
I say ignore the symbols and it takes away the power of the symbol.

its a valid point, but its kinda hard to ignore it when its flying over the state capitol or on license plates.

Again, would you feel the same way if you saw someone driving around in a Toyota truck with an ISIS flag? Or remember the outrage when they wanted to build a mosque near Ground Zero because it was offensive given the nature of the 9/11 attacks?. hey, just ignore them, right?

Apples and oranges. For one ISIS is a current threat, not a bygone symbol of a failed secession. Second, I know you know the true meaning of the rebel flag and I would hope you wouldn't just use the lazy argument about perception being more important than fact. The fact is the ISIS flag does represent islamic extremist jihad and all the crap that goes with it. The rebel flag does not represent racism, no matter who flies it and for what reason. 

[JT01]

NO WAY IM TAKING MY FLAG OFF MY GENERAL LEE

[Mike DC]

           
Mopar Hellcats will probably kill more Americans than ISIS.  

But if you asked the average black American which causes them more fear & problems in general, white racism or Moper Hellcats . . .  





ISIS is far-off minor threat getting overhyped by the news.  

Racism here at home is a real issue that affects people's daily lives.  At least for some Americans.  

[Ghoste]

And yet the vast majority of murders in some communities occur at the hands of the same demographic that lives within those communities.  But a rebel flag and fear of white racism causes more problems than an extremist group whose stated goal is to rid the earth of ALL non Muslims (white black or green)?
Talk about perceived threats and media overhype.

[Ponch ®]

Understand fully what you are saying Ponch and yes, I would be offended by those things, angry actually, but I stand by my statement.  We need to take the power away.  That state capitol sure as hell isnt flying to proclaim they are racists so for them to cave on the flag, the racist wins and only the racist.  Arguably the offended person wins but I think my opinion on that would be easy enough to guess.

and you can make the argument (which in fact, was the argument) that the mosque near Ground Zero wasn't there to proclaim victory on 9/11, but rather as a peaceful place of worship. But it was still offensive to a lot of people.

Well, if the Aryan Brotherhood or some other group of morons wanted to ERECT a confederate flag at the site of this shooting to proclaim victory THAT would be offensive.  Before you accuse me of hypocrisy though, my argument is that in the case of the mosque at Ground Zero or a hypothetical flag raising at the shooting/murder scene or a swastika painted by vandals on a building at Dachau (I've been there btw, if you want to really force yourself to think about racism and genocide and who is privileged and who is just whining etc. go there), those are forced incidents of provocation.  Ignoring them in that context wouldn't help.  I'm having difficulty finding the right words to explain my position here but ultimately I am talking about denying power to symbols and I guess I see different ways of doing that.  By having a wide scale knee jerk reaction in this case I see only benefit to the ones who want that flag appropriated for their desires.  Had the murderer (I don't even want to personify the scum) draped the innocent with flags and posted it on facebook, to me that would merit pushing back.  His own facebook photo with the flag should have been pulled not broadcast beyond his personal circle of viewers.  His facebook photo should be made a subject of ridicule in my view.

I don't necessarily disagree with you that this was a knee jerk reaction to last weeks events. I personally found it distasteful that the blood wasn't even dry and people were already using it as a talking point to rail for or against whatever agenda (white privilege, gun control, the flag). None of those things could have prevented the shooting or bring those victims back.

But again, we're getting the issues mixed up. Was taking down the flag a political "quick fix" move? Definitely. Is the flag an outdated offensive symbol to a large segment of the population? I think so too.


I also want to make it clear that I'm not automatically calling anyone who defends the flag a racist person. On the other hand, I don't get why it's so hard for them to understand why it's such a controversial thing.

[Ponch ®]

Apples and oranges. For one ISIS is a current threat, not a bygone symbol of a failed secession. Second, I know you know the true meaning of the rebel flag and I would hope you wouldn't just use the lazy argument about perception being more important than fact. The fact is the ISIS flag does represent islamic extremist jihad and all the crap that goes with it. The rebel flag does not represent racism, no matter who flies it and for what reason.  

So why do people still get all worked up about Japanese cars? You know how many times, on this very forum, we often see something along the lines of "I don't care for any of that Jap crap...not after what they did to us in WWII!" ? What the hell does owning a Miata have to do with WWII? Latent homosexuality, maybe...but Pearl Harbor? Yet it's still an issue for a lot of people.

Perception is just as important as fact in these situations. The example of the swastika being an ancient indian symbol has already been brought up, and its on point. What would be the first thing you would think if you saw someone with a swastika tattoo?

Or the example that is always being raised here: "if you don't want to get shot by the cops, then stop dressing like a gangbanger"  What if the person is dressed like one but isn't one? That's perception vs. fact at work for you.

[1965gp]

When I was a kid I remember thinking that flag meant you liked to race....

My wife just told me she's not willing to let the kids ride in the General Lee until this blows over.  She's probably right. I love driving it but it's probably smart to put it up for a few months.

I understand why people don't like the flag- I don't care for rainbow flags, the Mexican Flag and several other things but it is not my place to tell someone not to display their appreciation for something.

I remember seeing a guy on TV tell me that all women that speak negatively about his God need to die. I saw that in an interview after the Dallas cartoon shooting. That guy is not just showing a symbol- he is stating that he believed the other person in the debate needed to be killed. And we protect his right to do so. Yet because some people used this flag in bad situations the rest of us are now targets.

Nobody was talking about this flag last week- we are using the flag as the 'fall guy' for this horrible scenario. it's easier to blame the flag than to accept the fact that there are insane people like this that could be your neighbor.

[1965gp]

I need to clarify that I do not fly the confederate flag- or have any other association than being a fan of the Dukes of Hazzard.

[Mike DC]

  

And yet the vast majority of murders in some communities occur at the hands of the same demographic that lives within those communities.  But a rebel flag and fear of white racism causes more problems than an extremist group whose stated goal is to rid the earth of ALL non Muslims (white black or green)?
Talk about perceived threats and media overhype.

 
IMO the stated goal of any group is way overrated.  The world is always full of groups making big claims, goals, and even committing some twisted stuff.  The relevant issue is how much of a threat do they actually pose, and to whom.  We cannot police the whole world.  Nor should we. 

I won't say ISIS is entirely just hot air.  But I will say they pose virtually no threat to US citizens anywhere near the USA, or in what is generally understood to be "American-safe" areas of the world.  Their primary goals are focused on issues within their own lands.  Killing a handful of foreigners for press attention is an ongoing publicity stunt.





Racism here at home causes a lot more trouble for American citizens than ISIS ever will.  Any American who doubts this . . .  is probably white.