440 Performance numbers

[jabo]

Hello!

I am from germany and my english isn't very well but I hope you understand me. I bought a 70 charger (with an engine swap) from an other geman guy and he can't say some performance numbers. But he gave me an email from the owner out of the USA with some data. My questions are --> What performance numbers will it make??? Does someone now what means that EHP? And is that engine good for some more performance?

6T 440 EHP
Block from end of 1975 (?76?) .030 over
6T=1976er truck motor?
EHP: E=Cast crank, H=Standard 4bbl V8, P=Premium fuel !OR! HP=High performance
Under this 1 19=19. January
Replacement flattop pistons
Stock crankshaft and rods
Comp cams with
292 duration and .501er lift
Head castings end with 516 (73,3cc) closed chamber from 64-67 361/383.
Intake valves 2.14er (2.08 original)
Exhaust valves 1.88er (1.60 original)
Ported and polished
Intake is a holly street dominator
Carb holly 750 double pumper
Stock ignition with hight performance orange box from mopar,
Damper #3577785 (cast crank Bj. 73-75)
Block: #4006630-440-9
Block date: 11.5.75

[jabo]

I am into the correct corner? Or did I forget somesing? Or is my english too bad? 

[cdr]

someone will respond,, your English is good!!!
I would say,depending on actual compression it is probably 320 to 360   hp

[firefighter3931]

Welcome aboard Jabo 

These are some unknowns that make predicting the horsepower numbers a best guess at best ? 

The intangiables are the cylinder head flow numbers and "actual" static compression. 

If the heads flow descent and the compression is in the 9.5-10 range it should make descent power in the 425hp range and close to 500 ftlbs of torque with that cam and good flowing exhaust with headers....


Ron

[John_Kunkel]

6T 440 EHP

6= 1976
T= Built at the Trenton engine plant
E= Cast crank
HP= High Performance

The 516 heads, although advertised as 73.5 CC's, are in reality around 78 CC's so your "Replacement flattop pistons", if identical to the originals (1.926" CH), means you have a compression ratio of around 8.50-1. Doesn't really compliment the other mods.

[jabo]

Oh, some answers  

Thank you for your help! (1)Does someone now my compression or must i measure the distance from piston to deck at TDC? (2)And than measure the combustion camber with water and a ?glas/window?
It has no stock headers and a 3" exhaust from flowmaster. And I now that the owner run 12.8 times on 1/4 mile in norwalk with 15" rims and 275 mickey thompson tyres. (That numbers are on a picture from the windsheld of the car). (3)Will be the cast crank ok for some more HP? (4)What heads do you recomend for a nice combo? (5)The great distance from 320HP to 425HP is only caused by the compression??? The old owner told me that i only buy premium fuel (92). I hope it help.

very nice to have some experts!    In germany no one now something about this nice cars  

[cdr]

by knowing the weight of the car & the MPH it runs at the track, HP can be calculated. the ET can also be used but MPH is more accurate. so lets say your car scales at 3900 lbs & ran 12.80 the math says

Your HP is 367.56 computed from your vehicle weight of 3900 pounds and ET of 12.8 seconds.

thanks Wallace calculators    http://www.wallaceracing.com/et-hp-mph.php

[Challenger340]

Not very much power.
Unknown Piston being my biggest concern, other than "replacement Piston".... which usually means the notoriously low-pop cast piston offerings.
No matter the 2.14/1.81 Valves.... maybe 400-425 hp and very poor torque

[jabo]

Argh... the picture is too big/large. Than i explain the picture.
On the windscreen you can see:

SPT
4350
12.8

12.8s is the ET time?! And the other signs are the weight and race class?

[Ghoste]

That would be my guess.

[BSB67]

Don't feel bad.  I'm from the United States, and my English isn't very good either.

Sometimes people get confused in thinking that the power output is simply a compilation of the parts they have.  Certainly that is a significant component that will generally define an upper bound on the power potential, but it is the finer details of machining, parts compatibility, assy technique, and very importantly, tuning.  Two guys can start with the same box of parts, but one guy might make 100 more hp than the other guy.

Assuming that the motor has low compression, I would say that all of the responses that have a guess to the hp could be correct.  Depending on the details, It could be 300 hp, or possibly 425 hp.  350 to 375 is my guess for actual power.

Low compression (generally bad piston choice) is crippling when it comes to trying to significantly improving performance.  This is why Bob keeps harping on this.....piston choice.  You cannot fix it without a lot of pain and cost, and you really cannot work around it very well.  The reason is not the low compression ratio itself, it is the low cylinder pressure that usually comes with it.  Higher cylinder pressure = higher power through the entire rpm range.  Another key element of more power is more air/fuel into the motor.  Generally, once a motor is put together, your cam is the simplest way to effect intake charge.  So here comes the rub: When you already have low cylinder pressure, it gets even lower when you put a bigger cam in the motor, and from a power output stand point, you are going down a path of diminishing returns.  You can actually get to the point where a smaller cam will make the car faster.

So, IMO, the easiest way to put more power in that motor would be cam or cylinder head change, and both would be better.  For the cam, a fast rate solid flat tappet cam up to about 240° @ 0.050". on a 108° LSA, in at 104° would work.  This will probably not add much peak power, but will add noticeably to average hp, make the car faster, and sharpen up the lower rpm power.  For cylinder heads, ported aftermarket aluminum with small combustion chamber, and have them milled to the lowest practical volume (70 cc or less).


Finally, I tell street guys that I can add a proven/documented 20 to 30 hp to their cars for less than $100.  It is called track tuning.  Instead, they usually spend $500 to $1000 on parts and tell themselves that they have 20 or 30 more hp.

Now that I'm done babbling, you should probably do a cranking cylinder pressure test.

[John_Kunkel]

The ET tells me has better than the standard low compression pistons. The '68-'69 "stock replacement" pistons with the 516 heads would give closer to a 10.5-1 CR.

[BSB67]

The ET tells me has better than the standard low compression pistons. The '68-'69 "stock replacement" pistons with the 516 heads would give closer to a 10.5-1 CR.

You could be right.  I think it is still hard to tell w/o a mph, car weight and some atmospheric data.  12.8 could be 106 mph at 3900 lbs at a DA of 0 ft, or is could be 112 at 4100 lbs w/ a DA of 3000 ft.  That is about a 100 hp swing.

[jabo]

Ok. And the 10,5:1 CR will be ok for street strip application? I read heads like my flow 240cfm. Now some better HP ratings?  But i forgot to tell that the car has a 2000 stall converter 

I found two different ft for norwalk raceway. One say 876ft and the other 849ft.

Today i am searching and working at some 200KB pictures from my restauration (for your nice answers). I hope you will enjoy!

[BSB67]

1) Is your fuel octane rating 92 RON or 92 (R+M)/2.

2) Do you know which MT 275 tire (ET Street of Street Radial or something else)

3) Do you have the picture from the track?

4) What gear ratio is in the car when at the track

5) How long ago was it at Norfolk?

John is probably right that it is not an 8.5:1 motor.  I get 9.5 to 10.0 or so if the motor has the somewhat frequently used 1.99" CH piston with a 77 cc chamber, depending on the head gasket used. A lot of assumptions.  240 cfm is probably a reasonable head flow number.

[jabo]

QBSB67

1.) I mean (R+M)/2

2.) Oh, I don´t now. But I have some pictures

3.) Yes, I hope it is under 200KB

4.)I don´t now. But it´s a 8-3/4 with #2881489 number on it

5.) In 2006 (norWalk)

[jabo]

But now my resto pics!

Does somebody now the insects?
The brown coating is "Fertan" (a rust converter)

[jabo]

Now some metall work with tinning

[jabo]

Now some more tinning and very bad welding from the old owner

[jabo]

Little wheel well work for bigger rims/tyres

[jabo]

Some work into the rocker panel

[jabo]

Some more rocker panel work and some glas blasting worke. Very nice finish!!!

[jabo]

Now some quarter panel work with my own nice tools 

[jabo]

Some more space for the tyre

[jabo]

Welding

[jabo]

Rear end work and some trunk

[jabo]

trunk and beginning from the floor worke

[jabo]

Now it will be bad... 

Some more insects??? 

[jabo]

But it will be better 

[jabo]

Nice rust protection and coating

[jabo]

Later or tomorrow you can get more pics (if you want).

And i hope you enjoy!

[green69rt]

The mud ball is a wasp nest that is made by an insect called the mud dauber.  Common around here.  You can google it.

[oldschool]

very nice sheet metal work! 

[cdr]

awesome work you are doing!!

[jabo]

Thanks!

Ok, that insect looks very cool and it eat spiders¿?  In Germany, it is the other way around!  Nice info.

[jabo]

Now it gowes on.

Some floor work on the other side. That´s not good!  Some rusty holes into the frame

[jabo]

Only some welding. But very bad corner for grinding!

On the third picture you can see one part of the frame stiffening set (torque boxen).

[jabo]

Welding and anti rust coating.

[jabo]

Now the floor from the bottom side and a nice set of my subframe connectors for stiffening. 

[jabo]

Very exactly welding at the sub frame connectors for good frame stiffening

[jabo]

My nice birthday cake. Very nice idea 

The car consists of chocolate and the ground consists of black forest cake 

[jabo]

Now the translation from column shift to floor shift.
A little bit complicated to find the correct position (not very much space between shifter and console)!

The other thing is one more part of the frame stiffening set (torque boxes for the rear).

[jabo]

There is the drivers side door lock attachment with some cracks in it. But ok for the age of 45 years.
The suspension became some sandblasting by a company.

[jabo]

It began on the 2. February 2013 and now my own little final. It´s ready for painting!!! 

But it will take a long time into the paintshop.
The master say approximately january or longer  
But they do the best work in this area!

[jabo]

Now I do only some little things like finishing the interieure, work on the suspension and other little things like that sandblasted parts.

[jabo]

(I hope you understand me completely at this post! It will be some difficullt sentence for me).
I buy many expensive things like the complete wiring loom, complete 68 grill, 2 pieces from the fenders from AMD...
I don´t want that you tink I am a poser. I only want that you now that this is my big dream. And I want that you now that I spend enough money for this.
It can be, that I must save money a long time.

But I want a fast car and your best recommendations!!!

A 1000HP engine would be by far the greatest thing for me. Do you really have good recommendations for me? I hope that only experienced members will answer!

I hear that the 440 engines are good for 800HP with a main grindl. Is it correct? or can I go with my 440 for 1000HP?
Otherwise I will go with an hemi engine. It would be nice when it was an naturally aspirated engine (because the nice sound).
Or can I buy/build an supercharged engine where you only hear the "normal" engine sound? A little turbocharger sound will be ok (or would that change the exhaust sound too much)?
Thanks for your answers!

[ChargerST]

Nice to see that you are moving forward with your Charger! Nice work too! Does the welding of the bottom part of the subframe connectors really increase the stiffness?

About the engine choice: I assume you want the 1000 hp engine for bragging rights, correct? Imo a 1000hp engine for a street car is a bad idea as you won't be able to put the power on the road with a stock style suspension. 1000hp n/a is hard to achieve and veeeery expensive without NOS - premium parts only if you want it to live longer than just a few weeks (aftermarket block, heads! etc.).
Better to talk to the engine builder pros like Challenger340 or heyoldguy

[jabo]

Thanks! I search for a long time for subframe connectors and on the end I preferred this one. I have a friend that deal with muscle cars and work every weekend on them. I ask him what he think about. And he say that this one are the best that he knows. You can feel it at an normal ride he say. The other one only attached at the front and on the rear. These one are everywhere attached. And after installation the front and rear sub frame are connected to one piece (ok, you can hear it by the name  )

I am sorry. I don´t understand that words "bragging rights" does it mean break the law? Or do you mean that i want to ?boast/brag/crow...?
I don´t want to break the law (our freeways are without an speed limit  ) But I think I only race it on a drag strip!
Or if you mean the other thing: OK, a little bit. It is nice to say 1000HP. A number with 4 digits. Every people will be amazed.
(Even little Audi´s or VW´s with 2,2 literary / 135cui engines does have 800HP in my town).

What do you think is ok for the original suspension? And what will be ok for an aftermarket suspension?

It will be ok that the engine has so much power only with nitrous oxide!!! (or does nitrous oxide change the sound)
I don´t now a guy with nitrous oxide.

Yes, I estimated about an aftermarket block and so on. But I think it will be ok (engine cost 30k-35k $/€)?

A good durability and not to much maintenance would be nice! --> I hope you don´t say "Forget it"!!!

Normally I don´t write on chats (can I ask these members directly on this homepage)?

[ChargerST]

I am sorry. I don´t understand that words "bragging rights" does it mean break the law? Or do you mean that i want to ?boast/brag/crow...?

bragging rights = gives you the "right"/opportunity to brag about your engine etc. Nothing to do with breaking the law (most times)

What do you think is ok for the original suspension? And what will be ok for an aftermarket suspension?

Really depends on the build. A high hp car has to be a package so engine, suspension, body (cage!), weight distribution all tie together. You need at least a Dana60 axle! Don't forget to upgrade you transmission as well.

Yes, I estimated about an aftermarket block and so on. But I think it will be ok (engine cost 30k-35k $/€)?
A good durability and not to much maintenance would be nice! --> I hope you don´t say "Forget it"!!!

Budget is ok. Durability and maintenance friendly is possible. You could aim for 750/800hp and a 200/250hp shot of nitrous.

Normally I don´t write on chats (can I ask these members directly on this homepage)?

Sure, just send them a private message. You should also look at the "Proven Engine Combos" board --> see Engine board. Some nice builds there that just might be what you're looking for!

[jabo]

Ok, now I understand 

Yes, I know. I inquire me about a dana60. I coud get it for under 3k here in germany and I know an transmission specialist.He say a TF727 build up to 1000HP will cost 3k with explosion guard. I want to keep the leaf springs (I hear it is better for the launch). Is that correct? But I don't want a cage. What do you think about the max HP numbers for that combo? Or don't you know it  too?

Yes, a 750-800HP combo with will be ok. But I don't know. Will it be ok for an 440 with good durability/maintenance.

I seach for some good engine combo sides. Do you know some?

Thanks for you hard write work! 

[JB400]

 

[jabo]

No more information/recommendations? 

Smal questtion by the way. How do you measure the HP in the USA? In germany we talk about the HP at the crank/clutch. Do you do this also? Or do you talk about the wheel horse power?

[ChargerST]

Have you contacted any members yet? Also look up Best Machines Racing Engines and get in contact with them.

[Challenger340]

No more information/recommendations? 

Smal questtion by the way. How do you measure the HP in the USA? In germany we talk about the HP at the crank/clutch. Do you do this also? Or do you talk about the wheel horse power?

At our Shop we talk Crankshaft/Flywheel Horsepower as measured on a Superflow SF902 Dynomometer.

Your query regarding 1,000 hp carbureted engines requires more information, specifically the fuel grade to be used.
While 900-1,000 hp is doable on 91 Octane "Pump Fuels", invariably the Camshaft profiles required become restrictive to sustained REAL Street driving useage.

What I am saying is this....
about 900 hp on pump gas can be achieved with HEMI's for "limited" street useage(a few thousand KMs per year)
and,
about 750-800hp on pump gas for the Wedges.
see here:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,96184.0.html

"Stock" Engine Blocks, even with a girdle(band-aid) are NOT conduscive for either of the above, further adding to costs with pressure on limited accessibility to aftermarket Blocks these days.

Realistically, IMO
using a "stock" 440 Block.... builds around the 650-675hp level on readily available 91 Octane fuel, that are fully streetable for extended useage should be considered, as both cost effective and reliable.
We will be Dyno'ing a 440 based 505 with Edelbrock Heads(ported) at the above level very soon, that would be a good example so I will keep you posted.

Bob

[70-500-SE-EXPORT]

Awesome build!!! You are very talented please keep us updated with pictures of the build!

[cincyboy]

 

Ok can someone do an editorial for these sheet metal fix  photos for a rookie? 

1) I know the red primer is like a nox primer but what is the transparent gold seal? It looks like it is being used between sheetmetal mating surfaces.

2) I don't feel as bad about my welded in patches before grinding.  Care to release your secret for shaping them back true?  Disc type and grit# order of progression ? 

[jabo]

Hello and welcome back!

Now im pritty finished with my project and I hope the pictures will be uploaded!

But I have some questions. How to set the ignition timing with the parts of my first post? I want to run 93US AON or 95US AON Fuel. Will be 20* initial timing and 35-36* advanced timing ok? Do I set the ignition in neutral or park position? My idle in "neutral" is some around 1200rpm now. And the distributor doesn't have a vacuum hose. Do I set the initial or advanced timing first?

Later i will send some more pic's.

[Laowho]

Thanks! I search for a long time for subframe connectors and on the end I preferred this one. I have a friend that deal with muscle cars and work every weekend on them. I ask him what he think about. And he say that this one are the best that he knows. You can feel it at an normal ride he say. The other one only attached at the front and on the rear. These one are everywhere attached. And after installation the front and rear sub frame are connected to one piece (ok, you can hear it by the name  )

Absolutely, but we added the torque boxes too as they work differently. Used to feel very boat-ish but I was wanting to dive in and outa lanes and hugging the rolling hills. Absolutely different car and how I remember these feeling. A must IMHO, from what I've read everywhere, and now I know.

[jabo]

The time has come. My project will be finished!!! 
But i think it will be a never ending story. 

Now some photos of my dream that i started to rebuild on february 2013.

[jabo]

Now some pictures from the paint job and installation of engine/trans/axle.

[Simonic]

Wow!!

[BDF]

Looking good! 

[Harper]

awesome build that thing looks freakin awesome!! congrats!!
thanks for sharing