Lowered Chargers

[WhiteOnGreen]

Hi, I like the look of the Charger lowered but I have a doubt about suspension. I think that the front lowered car limits suspension travel and coenering performance is reduced, suspension bumpers hits in frame rail every time. Any trick about?

[ikbrown]

I'm not certain what you mean but would be interested in an explanation or solution if it's an issue. I just went about lowering my Charger a little and lowered the front w/ the torsion bar adjustment bolt about the same as what you have in the picture. Haven't driven it very far since completing it to tell how handling has been impacted.

[Ponch ®]

Unless youre actively autocrossing it or taking it to the [road] track....do you really care all that much about "cornering performance"?

[WhiteOnGreen]

  "cornering performance" I mean explain, A lot montain road where I live,  my concerns is about the limited travel suspension and hits in frame rails I think more strees chassis and the principal funtion of the suspension is null. Members with lowered cars noticed anything?

[MSRacing89]

"cornering performance" I mean explain, A lot montain road where I live,  my concerns is about the limited travel suspension and hits in frame rails I think more strees chassis and the principal funtion of the suspension is null. Members with lowered cars noticed anything?

I think you need to educate yourself on the use of torsion bars and their rating.  Lowering a stock torsion is going to have similar effects as cutting a stock coil spring.  They will travel more simply because they are not rated for any type of performance.  Not too mention your shocks are not up to the task either.  There is a lot of good reading about proper torsion bar rates based on what you are trying to do.  There are also a lot companies that offer good starting points for someone with limited experience.  Hotchkis, PST, Bergman, Firm feel all offer upgraded torsion rates and shocks.

[HPP]

You can install shorter bump stops that will allow an additional inch of travel at the bump stop location, but they will not have the progressive resistance that the stock bumper has. If you have significantly lowered your car and you retain the original torsion bars that were too soft to begin with, you very likely will bottom them out irregardless of the types of bump stops you have.  If you are after improved cornering capability, the first thing most due is a stepping up of the t-bar, s-bar, and shock rates to better manage body roll. Once you manage the roll, then you can dial in the ride height and bump stops to a more compatible with the appearance you are after.  If you prefer the softness of the OEM suspension rates, but want a lowered appearance, you can always swap to a set of lowering spindles which will drop the ride height while retaining the original travel range. Down side to this is drop spindles tend to increase bump steer issues.

[twodko]

My opinion..........

The only cars that look good lowered are lead sleds and Impalas.

[ACUDANUT]

Even they look like crap. 

[ACUDANUT]

Lower the front , raise the rear and your good to go. 

[HPP]

Personal preference. I personally don't care for raised ride height cars. I tend to drop most of my cars some amount from stock. Nothing like low rider low, but certainly down from where they were when they rolled off the assembly line.

[Lennard]

Low with fat rear tires is the way to go.
No body builder on ice skates stuff...

[Mike DC]

  
Define "lowered".  

   
You rarely ever see a truly dealership-stock front end height/stance anymore.  Nowadays even most O.E. stock restorations are set lower/more raked than this.  

[ikbrown]

I agree with Mike - I recently lowered mine with Torsion bar in the front and 1 inch lowering blocks in the rear. It's nothing crazy that will cause me troubles but the fenders are now just under the top of each tire. Don't know why I never did this before - looks so much better!

I went with a level drop front and back - I'm not a huge fan of a super raked look. Add in some wide rear rubber down the road and I'll be set.

[Lennard]

 
Define "lowered".  

   
You rarely ever see a truly dealership-stock front end height/stance anymore.  Nowadays even most O.E. stock restorations are set lower/more raked than this.  

Both cars are "body builders on ice skates" in my opinion.
I love the black one below with the wheel wells filled up.

[1974dodgecharger]

We all have our opinions  lowering a 2nd gen charger means it wont get stolen and having a modified suspension NO ONE LIKES also lessens theft.  Last time I looked a lot of stolen cars are stock because they are worth more.  Ill say again my car is so ugly compared to other cars...no one likes it. 

Back on topic here is a hotchkis setup yes lowered 1.5in rears I believe after settling in and lowered an inch?  I cant tell I adjusted it to so that it matches my rears.

[Lennard]

  I like your car except for the stage coach wheels with rubber band tires.
That's 2002  Chebby Impala material.

[myk]

Function over form, brother.  Rubber band tires and wagon wheels will help him keep up in the turns with the Nissan Altima that just blew all of our doors off at the starting line...

[Lennard]

I'm just rattling your cage a bit... it's your car so do as you please.
If I want to compete with a 20?? Nissan Altima, I'm not going to do that in a 45 year old car but something that is compatible.
I just love old school/period correct wheels and my Chargers will never roll on anything larger than 15".

[ACUDANUT]

 
Define "lowered".  

   
You rarely ever see a truly dealership-stock front end height/stance anymore.  Nowadays even most O.E. stock restorations are set lower/more raked than this.  





I love the Black Charger the best. It's stance looks bad ass.

Both cars are "body builders on ice skates" in my opinion.
I love the black one below with the wheel wells filled up.

[1974dodgecharger]

I like your car except for the stage coach wheels with rubber band tires.
That's 2002  Chebby Impala material.

Whats funnier there was a guy watching Fast 7 and saw the rubber band wheels on the road runner Vin drives and gets mad and gets kicked out for being too loud saying he needed 15inch rims on it 

[JB400]

 

[ACUDANUT]

I'm just rattling your cage a bit... it's your car so do as you please.
If I want to compete with a 20?? Nissan Altima, I'm not going to do that in a 45 year old car but something that is compatible.
I just love old school/period correct wheels and my Chargers will never roll on anything larger than 15".

X2 

[375instroke]

When you lower a car, the geometry that gets messed up is called the roll center.  When a car leans into a turn, this is the imaginary point it pivots around.  When you lower a car, the center of gravity lowers that same amount, but the roll center is set by the angles the control arms are at.  When you lower the car, the lower control arm goes up, and the line from the ball joint to the pivot pin goes from pointing slightly up, to pointing down.  That's why the FSM wants the measurement of ride height set the way it is.  It's so the control arm points down slightly as viewed from the pivot point.  A lowered car can have the roll center go below the ground.  One thing this does is increase the lever arm that centrifugal force acts upon that makes the car lean.  It leans more with the same amount of force acting upon the suspension.  A higher roll center will resist leaning more with the same spring rates.  Too high of a roll center, and the car can actually lean the opposite direction like a motorcycle, but that does not get you around the turn faster.  There's always a limit and a sweet spot to be at.

Cutting coils increases spring rate along with lowering the car.  Torsions maintain their rate wherever they are adjusted to, so you need stiffer torsions when lowering just to keep from bottoming while driving the same.  That, along with the lower roll center, all works against you when you lower.

I've cut the stock bumpers even with the flat part, so they end up about 3/8" thick.  More travel, but harder when they do hit.  My car at the time was almost riding on them when they were cut down that thin, and I had 2" lowering blocks in back with 235/60-15 front on 15X6.5, and 275/60-15 rear on 15X7.  The car didn't feel bad at all driving, but it cornered like shit.  It had the look I wanted, though, and that was the most important thing at the time.  The pinion snubber was almost resting on the floor, so it hooked up great, too.

In the rear, lowering blocks increase the lever arm from the axle centerline, to the leaf spring, making it easier for the differential to wrap up under acceleration.  Just another thing to think about.  What some people have done, me included, is flip the front spring hangar.  You'll have to relocate a hole, but that will get you about 1" lower, and decrease understeer by reducing the angle the leaf springs sit at.  That angle steers the rear of the car into turns.  You will still have that, just not as much.

[Rubberduck]

Why not using drop spindles?
You still got full travel on your suspension and the car sits lower 2 inches.

https://www.performanceonline.com/1962-74-Mopar-A-B-and-E-Body-Drop-Spindles/


Mario

[HPP]

 A lowered car can have the roll center go below the ground.  One thing this does is increase the lever arm that centrifugal force acts upon that makes the car lean.  

This is entirely possible unless you change other geometric interface points to create a new set of intersection points to restore or improve the geometry. This is why when lowering my cars to a significant degree, I either use FJM spindles, which are taller, or raised pivot point upper ball joints.  My current car has the lower control arm pivot and lower ball joint in a plane parallel to the ground. By using taller spindles and ball joints, I've restored the front roll center from underground to 4" above ground and shortened the moment lever arm of the roll axis  to half of what it was in stock form, all while drop the center of gravity in concert with the revision in geometry.

Why not using drop spindles?
You still got full travel on your suspension and the car sits lower 2 inches.

https://www.performanceonline.com/1962-74-Mopar-A-B-and-E-Body-Drop-Spindles/


Mario

As I mentioned earlier, this is an option, but it does have an impact on bump steer issues, so it isn't an end all solution.

[cbrestorations]

slam it down for lower center of gravity, but redesign the suspension so the roll center is atleast close to frame height. 1" longer ball joint on the lower control arm will help. ive built a new k frame with 15" lower control arms when stock is 12.5" and 1" longer lower ball joints. so this way the lowers sit more level when dropped to 4" frame height. 3" for autocross

[375instroke]

slam it down for lower center of gravity, but redesign the suspension so the roll center is atleast close to frame height. 1" longer ball joint on the lower control arm will help. ive built a new k frame with 15" lower control arms when stock is 12.5" and 1" longer lower ball joints. so this way the lowers sit more level when dropped to 4" frame height. 3" for autocross

Are there longer lower ball joints for '69 B-Bodies?  They make them in the screw in style, but I haven't seen them with the built in steering knuckle.  Are they custom made?

[cbrestorations]

no, not for the factory style, have to run aftermarket lowers and spindles

[Kern Dog]

Lower the front , raise the rear and your good to go. 

This isn't the 70s anymore, man.
Nobody in any car with a 3 inch rake and N-50-15s is going to outhandle a properly set up Charger with a few well chosen suspension and tire upgrades.

[cbrestorations]

lol, so much rake u need a back up camera to see behind you

[HPP]

Are there longer lower ball joints for '69 B-Bodies?  They make them in the screw in style, but I haven't seen them with the built in steering knuckle.  Are they custom made?

Not directly. The closest you could come to a factory style install for custom lower ball joints would be swap to 72-79 B body lower control arms that use a screw in style ball joint. However, these arms are also longer and have different strut rods that will rquire some custom work and special offset rims to all fit properly.

[ACUDANUT]

Lower the front , raise the rear and your good to go. 

This isn't the 70s anymore, man.
Nobody in any car with a 3 inch rake and N-50-15s is going to outhandle a properly set up Charger with a few well chosen suspension and tire upgrades.

I guess I am old school. Always will be. 

[HPP]

Mopar Chassis manuals typically recommended a 2-3* nose down rake for best high speed performance

[Kern Dog]

Maybe for a top end run at the Bonneville Salt Flats. Handling has been a tough sell to the Mopar faithful. A 3" rake is absolutely horrible for an autocross or road race car.

Old school builds are cool. I like a classic look on other peoples cars. I just prefer to turn corners fast in mine.

[dual fours]

Mopar Chassis manuals typically recommended a 2-3* nose down rake for best high speed performance

Lower the front , raise the rear and your good to go. 

This isn't the 70s anymore, man.
Nobody in any car with a 3 inch rake and N-50-15s is going to outhandle a properly set up Charger with a few well chosen suspension and tire upgrades.

I guess I am old school. Always will be. 

Guess we went to the same ole school

[ACUDANUT]

 

[HPP]

Maybe for a top end run at the Bonneville Salt Flats. Handling has been a tough sell to the Mopar faithful. A 3" rake is absolutely horrible for an autocross or road race car.

3* not 3". A 3* rake is about maybe a 1" difference front to rear.  This is recommend because of the asymetrical leaf spring design of a mopar and the resultant anti-squat vectors they achieve. The slight rake allows a level attidue under accelleration.

[375instroke]

Mopar Chassis manuals typically recommended a 2-3* nose down rake for best high speed performance

I've only seen this referred to as the pinion angle, not the angle of the entire car to the ground.

[HPP]

It is in both the Chassis Manual, under Front Suspension,  and the Oval Track Modifications manual, under Chassis and Body. Measurements to be taken at the pinch weld area of the door sill, right behind the front tire to right in front of the rear tire, on level ground.

[1974dodgecharger]

Mopar Chassis manuals typically recommended a 2-3* nose down rake for best high speed performance

HUH, thanks for the info....might need to crank down my torsion bars now.......I think im somewhat leveled, but the 28inch diater wheels back there rake it up an ince or so...

[HPP]

A 26" front and 28" rear tire arrangement would accomplish exactly that. So the popular 235/275 combo produces a 3* rake.

[1974dodgecharger]

A 26" front and 28" rear tire arrangement would accomplish exactly that. So the popular 235/275 combo produces a 3* rake.

good point will need to google a calculator for tire size I hve, lol...