News:

It appears that the upgrade forces a login and many, many of you have forgotten your passwords and didn't set up any reminders. Contact me directly through helpmelogin@dodgecharger.com and I'll help sort it out.

Main Menu

Cam question

Started by Stegs, June 03, 2015, 10:08:38 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Stegs

Thinking about getting a new cam...give the car a little bit of a aggressive idle, something with a little bump and better sound.

I like the idea of the mopar purple cam, but i heard that you can get a better cam for less money (voodoo cam, crane, etc)


2 questions

1. what is a good street/cruiser cam that will give me a more aggressive idle sound, but remain very good on the street running power drum brakes

2. can you install a cam (with new lifters) while the motor is in the car? or must the motor come out again?

This is a 9.5 compression stock 440 rebuild. 906 heads, stock internals, with a eddy performer intake. Eddy 600 cfm carb, firecore iginiton

BLK 68 R/T

Give Hughes Engines a call. They can recommend a cam for you. You should go check out their website first and get all the cam questions answered that you will get asked about your car/engine specifics. I went with them for my last cam and have used them in the past as well. Very good cams in my opinion  :2thumbs:

XH29N0G

I'll let others answer #1.  The answer to #2 is yes for a gen II.  I assume so for the others, too.
Who in their right mind would say

"The science should not stand in the way of this."? 

Science is just observation and hypothesis.  Policy stands in the way.........

Or maybe it protects us. 

I suppose it depends on the specific case.....

Brass

I wouldn't choose a cam based on how it sounds alone.  Before offering suggestions, knowledgeable folks here will want to know what exhaust, gearing, tire diameter, and stall speed.  Are you *absolutely certain* of your compression?  Also, the carb seems a little small.

Challenger340

If you call any professional for a Cam reccomendation..... "output" from them will be directly proportional to the "imput" you are able to provide.

far beyond the standard information, like tire, gearing, intake & carb, headers, etc., etc
the best piece of information you can provide them.... so you don't get the standard "fluff off" like every other retard phoning....
is the cranking cylinder pressure you have to work with !
It will tell them you are SERIOUS about obtaining the best information in a Cam reccomendation.

Do this first before phoning so you have that information.
* remove all 8 spark plugs
* disable the ignition system
* wire the throttle plates wide open
* fully charged battery

* screw the compression tester into each hole and allow about 6-7 needle "bumps" until it stops going up, record for each cylinder.

An 8.5:1 Engine running a stock 440-4 Barrel camshaft (62* ABDC Closing Point) will show around 130-135 psi.
An 9.5:1 Engine running a stock 440-4 Barrel Camshaft (62* ABDC Closing Point) will show around 150-155 psi.

Here is a good calculator to then "plot" available cylinder pressure(torque) with any larger Camshaft you get reccomended, by the Intake ABDC closing point provided.
By doing the above test..... it will also allow you to verify your 9.5:1 Compression ratio.
http://www.wallaceracing.com/dynamic-cr.php
Only wimps wear Bowties !

Stegs

Quote from: Brass on June 03, 2015, 04:33:26 PM
I wouldn't choose a cam based on how it sounds alone.  Before offering suggestions, knowledgeable folks here will want to know what exhaust, gearing, tire diameter, and stall speed.  Are you *absolutely certain* of your compression?  Also, the carb seems a little small.

Im fairly certain. I just had this motor rebuilt about 2 months ago. I told him i wanted to be about 10.1 and he said the pistons/head gasket combo he thought of right away would give me 9.5.

I wanted to double and triple check so i went to the shop. He verified it all for me...and i was there when he ordered the parts. With the 906 heads/headgasket and the pistons he ordered would be at 9.5. Unless something changed, he said its 9.5. (i know he had a few different pistons, some where 8.5 compression...RV pistons?..)


as far as carb goes....I cant seem to get a straight answer on that. The carb i have now is 600. It works great, but i feel its a little small also. I was told that a 600 cfm for a fairly stock 440 is plenty.

Im trying to decide if i would be better spending a little on a new carb (holley 750) or a new cam/lifters



And im not going to buy a cam based on the sound it makes...hints why i started this thread, to see what other have in their cars and how they like it. I would PREFER to get a cam with a little more bump, and the hughes whiplash cam is the sound i prefer (or something along those same lines)

Brass

Your engine builder should also be able to provide the part number used for the pistons.  Or have a piston to deck measurement at TDC recorded.  That information can help verify your compression ratio.  Without that information, I wouldn't just take his word for it, and conduct a cranking cylinder pressure test like Challenger340 described.  The problem, as previously stated elsewhere, is a lot of pistons were advertised as "stock replacement" for certain years in catalogues when indeed they were not.  The mind reels imagining how easily people could be led astray by that.  

Also, didn't the topic of cam selection come up when the engine was being rebuilt?  That would have been a pretty good time to address it.  If not – red flag.

In my mind, a Holly 750 would be a significant improvement over the 600 eddy.  

Challenger340

Quote from: Stegs on June 04, 2015, 07:23:06 AM
Quote from: Brass on June 03, 2015, 04:33:26 PM
I wouldn't choose a cam based on how it sounds alone.  Before offering suggestions, knowledgeable folks here will want to know what exhaust, gearing, tire diameter, and stall speed.  Are you *absolutely certain* of your compression?  Also, the carb seems a little small.

Im fairly certain. I just had this motor rebuilt about 2 months ago. I told him i wanted to be about 10.1 and he said the pistons/head gasket combo he thought of right away would give me 9.5.

I wanted to double and triple check so i went to the shop. He verified it all for me...and i was there when he ordered the parts. With the 906 heads/headgasket and the pistons he ordered would be at 9.5. Unless something changed, he said its 9.5. (i know he had a few different pistons, some where 8.5 compression...RV pistons?..)


as far as carb goes....I cant seem to get a straight answer on that. The carb i have now is 600. It works great, but i feel its a little small also. I was told that a 600 cfm for a fairly stock 440 is plenty.

Im trying to decide if i would be better spending a little on a new carb (holley 750) or a new cam/lifters



And im not going to buy a cam based on the sound it makes...hints why i started this thread, to see what other have in their cars and how they like it. I would PREFER to get a cam with a little more bump, and the hughes whiplash cam is the sound i prefer (or something along those same lines)


It's really simple here..... get the Piston Part# he used !
trust me here..... there is NO Flat Top "stock" 440 Piston that is anywhere near 9.5:1 without extensive Block and/or Head Milling then requiring adjustable valvetrain.
or, if you don't believe me ?
do the compression test I listed earlier which will VERIFY 130-135psi or about 8.5:1 Compression ratio.

There are only 2 stock cast flat top pistons available for 440's.... anywhere in the marketplace !
I would really love to be wrong... but that's the way it is....
Meaning,
you either have ONE or the OTHER listed below....
1.) 1.92" compression height, which is the low or "RV" piston, good for 7.8:1 Compression Ratio on open chamber heads with composition gasket.
or,
2.) The 1.99" compression height, which is the "high" piston, good for about 8.6:1 Compression ratio on most 906 open chamber heads with composition gasket.
Unless he did ALOT of Block and/or Head Milling.... I don't think you are even in the low 9's for compression.

DO the compression test !
Only wimps wear Bowties !

BSB67

Quote from: Challenger340 on June 04, 2015, 08:01:59 PM
Quote from: Stegs on June 04, 2015, 07:23:06 AM
Quote from: Brass on June 03, 2015, 04:33:26 PM
I wouldn't choose a cam based on how it sounds alone.  Before offering suggestions, knowledgeable folks here will want to know what exhaust, gearing, tire diameter, and stall speed.  Are you *absolutely certain* of your compression?  Also, the carb seems a little small.

Im fairly certain. I just had this motor rebuilt about 2 months ago. I told him i wanted to be about 10.1 and he said the pistons/head gasket combo he thought of right away would give me 9.5.

I wanted to double and triple check so i went to the shop. He verified it all for me...and i was there when he ordered the parts. With the 906 heads/headgasket and the pistons he ordered would be at 9.5. Unless something changed, he said its 9.5. (i know he had a few different pistons, some where 8.5 compression...RV pistons?..)


as far as carb goes....I cant seem to get a straight answer on that. The carb i have now is 600. It works great, but i feel its a little small also. I was told that a 600 cfm for a fairly stock 440 is plenty.

Im trying to decide if i would be better spending a little on a new carb (holley 750) or a new cam/lifters



And im not going to buy a cam based on the sound it makes...hints why i started this thread, to see what other have in their cars and how they like it. I would PREFER to get a cam with a little more bump, and the hughes whiplash cam is the sound i prefer (or something along those same lines)


It's really simple here..... get the Piston Part# he used !
trust me here..... there is NO Flat Top "stock" 440 Piston that is anywhere near 9.5:1 without extensive Block and/or Head Milling then requiring adjustable valvetrain.
or, if you don't believe me ?
do the compression test I listed earlier which will VERIFY 130-135psi or about 8.5:1 Compression ratio.

There are only 2 stock cast flat top pistons available for 440's.... anywhere in the marketplace !
I would really love to be wrong... but that's the way it is....
Meaning,
you either have ONE or the OTHER listed below....
1.) 1.92" compression height, which is the low or "RV" piston, good for 7.8:1 Compression Ratio on open chamber heads with composition gasket.
or,
2.) The 1.99" compression height, which is the "high" piston, good for about 8.6:1 Compression ratio on most 906 open chamber heads with composition gasket.
Unless he did ALOT of Block and/or Head Milling.... I don't think you are even in the low 9's for compression.

DO the compression test !

I think we have already been through this with him.  He chooses to believe the machinist who is telling him 9.5:1.  He's happy, all good.

500" NA, Eddy head, pump gas, exhaust manifold with 2 1/2 exhaust with tailpipes
4150 lbs with driver, 3.23 gear, stock converter
11.68 @ 120.2 mph

Challenger340



I think we have already been through this with him.  He chooses to believe the machinist who is telling him 9.5:1.  He's happy, all good.
[/quote]

Agreed,
but so much for any Torque capability with or without a Cam swap..... VERY limited potential, just wasting even more money  :brickwall:
Only wimps wear Bowties !

Stegs

sounds like id be better off starting with a 750 Holley, maybe do a cam next year  :2thumbs:


and i do believe the pistons are Keith black pistons....i will find my receipt

69wannabe

If you do have the keith black 237's you should have some decent compression there. For a mild cam with a little lope I like the comp cam's XE268. It's a good driving cam and you don't have to have stall converter to run it. You will want to move up to a good 750 holley carb if you go with a more aggressive cam for sure. That 600 is holding a fresh 440 back and with a bigger than stock cam it will really be too small in my opinion. You don't want to go with a cam that has over a 510 lift. The valve guides will have to be machined down on your 906 heads to run a cam with more than a 510 lift. The XE268 has a 480 lift I think or close to that. You will also want to purchase the matching valve springs for the cam too... The cam and lifter's and springs can be changed with the engine in the car but it's a pretty good project. I put new lifters in my 440 and replaced my rocker arm adjusters a few month's ago and that was a several hour job if I remember correctly. My buddy has the XE268 in his 440 which if your engine is a 9.5 to 1 engine then your engine and his are almost identical and his is very strong with that cam and he has a 750 holley vacuum secondary carb on it with heddman headers. His old charger is a solid running old car and he drives it everywhere!!!!

Challenger340

Quote from: Stegs on June 08, 2015, 06:16:59 AM
sounds like id be better off starting with a 750 Holley, maybe do a cam next year  :2thumbs:


and i do believe the pistons are Keith black pistons....i will find my receipt


Does the Engine run smooth ?
Do you remember paying for BALANCING ?
Do you remember your machinist stating he would like to use a Torque Plate for Boring & Honing ? and special ring endgap requirements for assembly ?

The KB 237 performance Piston is fully about 100 grams lighter than any of the stock replacement 440 Pistons

Remember,
U.E.M. or United Engine and Machine Company, make both the "KB" Line of Hypereutectic PERFORMANCE Piston offerings like the "237"
and,
the infamous "Silvolite #1263" and listed as a STOCK replacement Piston, supposedly HIGH 440 piston at the 1.969" Compression Distance, ... which is still notoriously LOW Compression with open chamber cast iron heads (906), leaving very little "room", or cylinder pressure for Cam upgrades.

Now you believe you have "KB237" Pistons ?
when before...
you had stated that you had STOCK replacement Cam ?, STOCK replacement Pistons ?, STOCK replacement everything ?.... but now you think you may have a PERFORMANCE piston ?

Just say'in Stegs.....
"output" for any suggestions in upgrades, CAM or anything else....... are only, and can only be as good as ACCURATE imput from you ?

Dig out that receipt !
or,
do a cranking pressure test !



Only wimps wear Bowties !