Car Trouble - Update - Up & Running

[Shakey]

Good Day All,

A few questions about general trouble shooting...  

Ballast Resistors - when they are nearing the end of their life do they fail, then work again or simply die and that's it - your ballast resistor is either good or no good?  

ECU - do they "come and go" or either it's good or no good?  

Voltage Regulator - same, can they come back to life or once they're gone they're gone?  

I thought I'd throw this out there to start before I post the long back story of a car that started and ran great for the first 1,000 miles and now leaves me shrugging my shoulders.  

Questions and comments are welcome and thanks in advance!  


--  1969 Charger 440 Auto No AC - previous owner converted it to electronic ignition - I have owned the car for 10 years

[skip68]

Hey shakster, a coil going bad can cause issues like you're describing.   I believe that the ballast resistor is a one and done kinda deal.  Ecu and voltage regulator can give you trouble and still work I'm pretty sure.      someone smarter than I hopefully will chime in.  

[Troy]

When dealing with electronic sensors at a previous job the engineers would always tell us that "90% of electrical problems are mechanical problems" - meaning loose wires, bad grounds, or, in our case, capacitors falling out of the circuit board when hot. The ballast resistor *should* just fail but it doesn't have to. The ignition box should be solid state but there are lots of reports of "flaky" boxes. I have a pile of them. It's the reason why I gave up on the Mopar orange boxes. Don't know about VR but I switched all mine to digital. I HATE electrical problems - especially intermittent ones.

Oh, on my Challenger I chased an issue for months. One day while stuck outside the Mopar Nationals and having replaced everything in the ignition *twice* with known good parts I got frustrated and kicked my foot up under the dash. It jarred the loose ignition wire back into place (I think it was the brown one from the switch - the one that provides power in "run"). I made sure it was seated and then zip tied it to the wire next to it and drove it like that for a while. Not only was it maddening but it was also a pretty decent fire hazard.

Troy

[Back N Black]

The ECU can be intermittent if there is a bad ground or loose wire.
Usually a bad ballast resistor, the car will start when cranking but stall when key is in the run position. Because the ballast is bypassed when cranking.

The voltage regulator can be intermittent if bad ground, but will not cause a no start, unless the battery is dead.

Check the gap on the pickup coil (dist).

[Shakey]

Thanks for the replies thus far.

I have searched the forum and read about some of these issues.  I think the most maddening part is how all of the sudden it seems fixed and then it leaves me stranded again.

I ordered a bracket (Rocket Restorations) to mount the ECU behind the intake away from the very hot passenger side exhaust manifold, a new voltage regulator from FBO and have a spare ECU on hand.  Took the bulkhead connector apart and all looks good in there.  Haven't paid too much attention to the coil (Dodge Don gave me a spare) or the distributor just yet.

All of the wiring in the car is new.

I have to wonder about the ignition switch.  The tumbler is sticky sometimes and I have noticed that if I don't have it in the "exact" position after starting the car the car can run but I have no gauges.  A little wiggle and it falls into position and the tach is active again.

I also have to wonder if instead of throwing money at this style of system I should opt for the MSD set up.

[BLK 68 R/T]

IMO you should replace the ignition switch. If you have to wiggle it to make stuff work that explains a lot of the issues. Ignition 1 and 2 circuit each go out to the ballast resistor directly from the ignition switch. One side is direct power for starting and the other side goes through the ballast resistor to keep the car running after you release the key from the start position back to run position. If you have a defective ignition switch it will loose power to the ballast resistor which feeds the coil which will kill the engine. You could install an complete MSD setup but if you don't fix the ignition switch you will still end up with the same issue. 

[skip68]

I agree with blk 68 100% 
I'm betting that's the source of your trouble.   

[Shakey]

I have a spare ignition switch at home also, will definitely give that a try also! 

[BLK 68 R/T]

I have a spare ignition switch at home also, will definitely give that a try also! 

One other thing to check when you change your ignition switch. There are 2 plastic tabs that hold the connector onto the back of the switch, if a tab is broke the harness may be pulling off of one side just enough to cause you grief. Just something to check to make sure it has a good connection and stays put.

[HANDM]

Single or dual field alternator?

I converted to electronic but neglected to install a dual in the place of the single causing very similar problems

[VegasCharger]

I have a spare ignition switch at home also, will definitely give that a try also! 

One other thing to check when you change your ignition switch. There are 2 plastic tabs that hold the connector onto the back of the switch, if a tab is broke the harness may be pulling off of one side just enough to cause you grief. Just something to check to make sure it has a good connection and stays put.

To add to BLK 68 R/T theory, you said in an earlier reply that you have all new wiring. I'm assuming that the main underdash harness was M&H brand that is sold thru Year One. If so the new terminal housing for the IGN switch (IMO) doesn't mate up snug like the OEM one did. I was not happy with how this was working out. I knew that I couldn't just send it back and get a different one because it most likely would've been the same terminal plug. So what I ended up doing was switching out the new terminal plug from M&H and replacing it with my OEM plug. Snugs up much nicer. I know that these M&H harnesses are nice, but they do have their flaws. There were more minor flaws on my 68 Charger underdash harness by M&H but most of them I could correct myself instead of sending it back to them and be at their mercy for them to return it.

[PlainfieldCharger]

Thanks for the replies thus far.

I have searched the forum and read about some of these issues.  I think the most maddening part is how all of the sudden it seems fixed and then it leaves me stranded again.

I ordered a bracket (Rocket Restorations) to mount the ECU behind the intake away from the very hot passenger side exhaust manifold, a new voltage regulator from FBO and have a spare ECU on hand.  Took the bulkhead connector apart and all looks good in there.  Haven't paid too much attention to the coil (Dodge Don gave me a spare) or the distributor just yet.

All of the wiring in the car is new.

I have to wonder about the ignition switch.  The tumbler is sticky sometimes and I have noticed that if I don't have it in the "exact" position after starting the car the car can run but I have no gauges.  A little wiggle and it falls into position and the tach is active again.

I also have to wonder if instead of throwing money at this style of system I should opt for the MSD set up.

Had a bad coil causing me headaches. Ran great until the engine got hot then nothing. Changed out the coil and never looked back. I also have the ECU bracket on the back of the intake. Working fine for 2 years now...

[Shakey]

Hello Everyone,

While considering all of the provided information, it was decided through a meeting of the minds (Dodge Don and another very knowledgeable Mopar guy and myself) that we would try to pinpoint the source of the trouble by only swapping out one piece at a time.

Contrary to what I stated, I do not have a spare ignition switch so I took mine out, cleaned up all of the terminals and lubed up the tumbler and then reinstalled it.  The connector on the already installed new wiring harness fit nice and snug, I can attest to that as it was not easy to remove it.

I cleaned the terminals in the bulkhead connector as well and all of the other connections, just for good measure.

I installed a new voltage regulator from FBO and took the car out for a few cruises on Saturday afternoon/evening.  All seemed OK.  Starts easy, ran and performed well in various conditions (steady cruise, long traffic lights where heat builds in the engine bay and some burnouts)

I do have a new ECU (Mopar orange) and the bracket to mount on the back of the engine and will probably relocate that this week.  I also have another coil.

If the problem returns, the next step would be to swap out the coil.

I was also told to check the pick up coil in the distributor as they are a source of trouble, as mentioned here earlier as well.

So for now, I kind of have this false sense of security as this has happened before.  It seems to run fine and then I get stranded.  This time I am prepared with my spare parts in the trunk along with the tools required.

I will keep my cruises to early Saturday and Sunday AM for the time being so that if I do end up stalling at the busiest intersection in town I will not be holding up the whole city.

Thank you again everyone!

[VegasCharger]

Good to hear Shakey

Good luck in your future cruises

[Shakey]

Thanks!

Last week I wanted to take my 11yo Daughter to her soccer game in it but was not sure if we would make it.  Told her we may end up having to come home on a flatbed to which she replied - "that would be fun".

I'll keep you all posted on how things go.

Thank you

[Shakey]

Single or dual field alternator?

I converted to electronic but neglected to install a dual in the place of the single causing very similar problems

Sorry, forgot to answer your question...

Single Field Alternator, at least as far as I can tell

[Shakey]

Well, I might have spoken too soon...

I have put 61 trouble free miles on it since I installed the new FBO voltage regulator, last Saturday night, Tuesday night and last night - no problems, car ran like a champ.  Tonight however, I went to fire it up and it would turn over, start and quickly stall.  Thought I would try another ballast resistor - no luck.

Figured it was time to try the new Mopar Orange ECU - still no luck.  Removed the coil which I realized was leaking some oil and thought that this was my "ah ha" moment, not to be.  Installed the one Dodge Don gave me, car turns over but will not fire.  Read that the Mopar ECU's can be bad outta the box so plugged in the other one, still no luck. 

The only thing I can think of now is the pickup coil in the distributor which I do not have readily available.

Any thoughts, advice, similar scenarios you'd like to share?  How did you resolve it?

I'm kinda bummed as my brother will be in from Calgary on the weekend and he doesn't get here very often and I'd love to take him and my nephew out for a spin but it's not looking good.   

[XH29N0G]

Do you use a multimeter to check some of these things, or mostly replace and try.  If you are not, it might help.  I have found it very helpful and really don't know how to use them all that well.  I wish I could help with your particular problem, but it is out of my league and the others are better qualified to answer.  Good luck.

[ws23rt]

Do you use a multimeter to check some of these things, or mostly replace and try.  If you are not, it might help.  I have found it very helpful and really don't know how to use them all that well.  I wish I could help with your particular problem, but it is out of my league and the others are better qualified to answer.  Good luck.

This a very good suggestion.   I too am a bit lost when tackling electrical problems. I have a multimeter and it's the kind that can't be used wrong.  If I touch the two contacts to something it will tell me something.--continuity, resistance  and voltage are the only things I have needed so far. No matter where I put the probes I don't have to be concerned about smoking the multimeter.

BTW not all multimeter's are like the one I use. Smoke might come out of a lot of the old school multimeter's. And just like most electrical devices when this happens they likely won't work anymore.

It's also a device that helps me much like my calculator in that it will do much more than I need but I have come to depend on it for what it does do for me.

[Shakey]

Sadly no!

I did borrow one from a friend but it must of been the top of the line model for electrical Engineers as I couldn't figure where to begin. I tried to find the manual online to operate it but had no luck.  Perhaps I will buy a more simple version so I can become edumacated on how to figure these electrical issues out now and in the future.

Everything on the car is either new or rebuilt with the exception of the ignition system including the distributor.  I realized I was going to change the ECU, voltage regulator and coil which is why I gathered all the parts.  My plan was to swap them one a time to narrow it down.

Thanks just the same!  

[ws23rt]

The multimeter I have is a Fluke 113.  It has a three position switch.  1- is off---2- is check--3 -is for resistance (ohms).  I have never even looked in the manual that came with it and used it for several years.

[polywideblock]

 I had this problem used the jumper lead trick in this article to find it was the ignition switch    same sort of troubles as yours  

                            http://www.moparaction.com/tech/archive/roadside.html

 

[BLK 68 R/T]

  If it starts and then looses power and dies it sure sounds like the ignition switch to me. It will start when you have the key turned all the way but as soon as you release the key to the "run" position it dies is a sure sign of a defective ignition switch as long as all the other components and connections are good, which I assume they are based on the feedback that has been given in the previous posts. Try a new ignition switch and see if that works for you 

[Back N Black]

Here is a quick check for you distrubutor pick up.

Disconnect the connector at the distributor, turn on the ignition switch and touch the male prong on the engine harness to ground. Each time the prong is grounded and pulled away you should get a spark from the coil. If it sparks the distributor pickup is the problem, if not it's the ECU or coil. 

[Troy]

If it starts and then dies when you let off the key it's likely the switch or ballast resistor. Put your multimeter on "Volts" (mine has multiple settings so I pick "0-20"). I have alligator clamps so if you have the pointy pins you may need help for the next part. There are two wires coming from the bulkhead connector to the ballast resistor area. One of these wires (the blue one I believe) is hot in "start" and the other (brown) is hot in "run". The wire that's hot in "run" is the one going through the ballast and they come back together on the other side. Put the multimeter on a good ground with one pin/clamp and on each of those wires in turn. The hot in "start" wire should show something near 12 volts when you turn the key all the way then go to 0 in "run" or with the key off. The other wire should show the same voltage *before the ballast resistor* when the key is in "run" and 0 in "start". After the ballast the voltage should drop to about 7ish I believe (depends on the ballast).

My Challenger had a loose wire/bad crimp under the dash that caused my car to act stupid at random times. Next time it doesn't start try reseating (or just pushing on) the wires and bulkhead connector from inside.

For a few months I just ran a jumper wire between the two ignition wires so both were hot all the time and I bypassed the ballast. Yes, this can hurt your ECU and coil because they shouldn't be getting 12 volts all the time but I had an Accel Blaster coil that is fine at 12 and a pile of spare ECUs. Nothing ever went bad on me during that time though. That would get you through the weekend if it's a wiring problem that you have to trace.

Troy

[Shakey]

Thank you everyone for your advice and input...update to follow later this evening, time for a quick road trip.  I'll explain later.

Is there a smiley that shows a fool throwing money into the engine bay of a car?   

[XH29N0G]

Is there a smiley that shows a fool throwing money into the engine bay of a car?   

I think you should quickly run apply for a patent on that idea. 

[polywideblock]

the good thing about Rick E's clip lead solution was that I just hooked it up to the two jumped wires at the hot side of ballast and didn't have to worry about frying coil /ecu  let me drive car for the 3 weeks it took for new switch  to get here , only problem was having to lift hood to turn off car 

[HANDM]

Single or dual field alternator?

I converted to electronic but neglected to install a dual in the place of the single causing very similar problems

Sorry, forgot to answer your question...

Single Field Alternator, at least as far as I can tell

OK, if you have a single field alt and electronic ignition, you need a dual fied alternator, 70 and up. I learned this from Pete in NH after my 69 ate three alternators, two ECU's and two black box regulators and two flat regulators before he showed me the error of my ways.
I too was the fool throwing money under the hood thinking each time that I was fixing the problem......untill the next time it broke.....lol

[Mopar Nut]

Is there a smiley that shows a fool throwing money into the engine bay of a car?  

What about throwing money away? But our cars are worth it.

[ws23rt]

Is there a smiley that shows a fool throwing money into the engine bay of a car?  

What about throwing money away? But our cars are worth it.

When we toss money in the engine bay it falls through. When we put it on the exterior it blows off. When we paper the interior with money it just loses value as time passes as with any other way we put money into our cars.

If this is not one of the things money is for then what is?  Spending money is part of the engine that makes more money.

[Mopar Nut]

Is there a smiley that shows a fool throwing money into the engine bay of a car?  

What about throwing money away? But our cars are worth it.

When we toss money in the engine bay it falls through. When we put it on the exterior it blows off. When we paper the interior with money it just loses value as time passes as with any other way we put money into our cars.

If this is not one of the things money is for then what is?  Spending money is part of the engine that makes more money.

True statement!

[Shakey]

Finally had the "ah ha" moment on Friday night about 11:00 PM.  Pardon for such a late reply but it has been a very busy weekend.   

I mentioned a road trip Friday around the noon hour – drove 150kms to National Moparts to get what I thought was everything I needed to get this car sorted out.  Bought a new ignition switch, coil, ballast resistor and pickup coil for the distributor.  Swapped everything but the pickup coil and it was still not starting properly.  Dodge Don and my neighbour stopped by and decided to take out the distributor.  Changed the pickup coil but had trouble getting the cap back on.  Kinda comical, three guys that need glasses hovering over the work bench trying to get the job done so we could have a beer.   

Had to call Dr. Mauro and it was too late for him to come over so we took Don's Charger for a spin and left the distributor at PCR for an evaluation.   

Turns out I was missing a bushing/pin on the shaft that was causing the shaft to move up/down slightly which in turn would sometimes have it lift enough to stall the engine.  Mauro brought it over on Saturday morning, had a coffee and in 10 minutes it was in and running.   

Took it out Saturday morning for a quick rip and ran great.  Sunday I started it up and ran a few errands and again, ran great.  Most importantly I was able to take my Brother, his Wife and my Nephew for a ride on Sunday afternoon.  They only come to town once in a blue moon so it was important to me.   

Thanks to everyone here for all of your advice and input – as usual, much appreciated.   

Thanks to Dodge Don and my neighbour who I always enjoy hanging out with.   

Thanks to Mauro at Performance Car Restorations who is so very knowledgeable on Mopars, always willing to help, great sense of humour and endless stories "from back in the day".   

performancecarrestorations.com

[skip68]

That's awesome news.   
Didn't see that one coming.   

[Troy]

Glad you got it sorted out and were able to give the family a ride!

Troy

[BLK 68 R/T]

Excellent find! Glad you were able to find the issue. Happy cruising 

[polywideblock]

  happy  cruising   

[472 R/T SE]

Never woulda guessed that.

DD asked us over @ the Registry & I had a similar experience.

[bakerhillpins]

...

Kinda comical, three guys that need glasses hovering over the work bench trying to get the job done so we could have a beer.   

...

Thanks to Mauro at Performance Car Restorations who is so very knowledgeable on Mopars, always willing to help, great sense of humour and endless stories "from back in the day".   

performancecarrestorations.com

Does the fact that I can totally picture me in that situation make me old too? 

So happy to hear that you got her all sorted out, most importantly for the family!!      

[Dodge Don]

It was funny. When I drove over I didn't know we'd be ultimately performing microscopic surgery on a distributor.

Despite living a couple of blocks away, because of Mike's schedules, my schedules, his car repair downtime, my car repair downtime....our Chargers have yet to actually cruise together. 

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

Glad to hear you guys got it sorted out!

[BIG ZAZA]

Finally had the "ah ha" moment on Friday night about 11:00 PM.  Pardon for such a late reply but it has been a very busy weekend.   

I mentioned a road trip Friday around the noon hour – drove 150kms to National Moparts to get what I thought was everything I needed to get this car sorted out.  Bought a new ignition switch, coil, ballast resistor and pickup coil for the distributor.  Swapped everything but the pickup coil and it was still not starting properly.  Dodge Don and my neighbour stopped by and decided to take out the distributor.  Changed the pickup coil but had trouble getting the cap back on.  Kinda comical, three guys that need glasses hovering over the work bench trying to get the job done so we could have a beer.   

Had to call Dr. Mauro and it was too late for him to come over so we took Don's Charger for a spin and left the distributor at PCR for an evaluation.   

Turns out I was missing a bushing/pin on the shaft that was causing the shaft to move up/down slightly which in turn would sometimes have it lift enough to stall the engine.  Mauro brought it over on Saturday morning, had a coffee and in 10 minutes it was in and running.   

Took it out Saturday morning for a quick rip and ran great.  Sunday I started it up and ran a few errands and again, ran great.  Most importantly I was able to take my Brother, his Wife and my Nephew for a ride on Sunday afternoon.  They only come to town once in a blue moon so it was important to me.   

Thanks to everyone here for all of your advice and input – as usual, much appreciated.   

Thanks to Dodge Don and my neighbour who I always enjoy hanging out with.   

Thanks to Mauro at Performance Car Restorations who is so very knowledgeable on Mopars, always willing to help, great sense of humour and endless stories "from back in the day".   

performancecarrestorations.com


Hi Mike

Glad to hear your cruising again, but I think Don is going to give you a run for your money. That is if he can hook it up.

I think you should drive the summer out and think about changing the parts around the motor later.

Seams like all you local guys a messing up the town. That little dart is doing donuts in every larger parking lot. Oakville place and crappy check it out.

Thanks