roadrace / drift street charger build

[cbrestorations]

my tubular k frame and suspension for my street roadrace charger project, ,all chromoly, bushinged, adjustable exc...getting a radical ls3/ 6 speed. yes...i know chevy motor but its the lightest, cheapest, easiest hp per $ to build. havent had alot of time to work on her due to paying jobs on others cars. just been ordering parts lately, all qa1 coilovers, wilwood pinto spindles, wilwood brakes exc...

before i finished the 3rd leg on the motor mounts

[JR]

This is neat, I'll be watching. What exactly do you plan on using it in? HPDEs or drift days? Got any particular events you want to run in? Got a target weight in mind? Since you mentioned drifting are you installing a hydraulic drift brake setup? I've toyed with the idea of installing one of them in my 70 street car for grins and giggles.

Cool build man.

[cbrestorations]

yes it will have a hydraulic handbrake with wilwood rear caliper e brake setup. not being build for full on drifting, but will be takin to open track days since it will be caged

[RallyeMike]

Neato start, even with an unmentionable power plant

Looks like a pretty healthy engine set back, but kind of hard to tell for sure. Does the firewall need to be modified?

[tan top]

   interesting stuff 

[cbrestorations]

i have it set where the rear of the block is 1.5" forward of the firewall. the ls engines are about 2" shorter than the big block chryslers. 

[Kern Dog]

Abortions like this really are orphans. The Chevy guys wonder why you used a Charger and the Dodge guys think you are an idiot for using a Chevy engine.

[cbrestorations]

you are right, ide love to put a 6.1 hemi in it but...why do you think the ls series engine is used in most types of racing and drifting...they are the lightest, cheapest and make great power. show me one chrysler engine that can do that...because they are not the lightest and not the cheapest so sadly chrysler fail. now i could go for the 6.1 aluminum hemi block for $4,000, but naw....because  everything else to make the 6.1 turn key cable driven 6 speed is more aswell. 600hp is achievable by both engines fairly easy...big cam, ported heads and big intake, but...ls3 is almost half the cost. my goal is 2700lbs without driver
i do however have a 750hp nascar R5 dodge engine im debating swaping, but its 80lbs heavier and i want it to be a cruiser aswell so i could drive to the track. so maybe
now my other street chargers will have chrysler engines, got too...

[Mike DC]

  
Agreed.  

If Mopar wants to keep GM motors out of their cars, all they have to do is start selling an alloy block for less than $4000.  

[HPP]

I don't build Dodges because they are cheap. Do I wiss they were less expensive, sure, but if cheap builds are the desire, its much easier to go Mustang  or Camaro whole hog instead of just  pirating  their powerplants. As drift and or race car, if you make any body contact, you are now looking at 2x cost replacement for body panels compared to the similar GM or Ford product as well.

When I went oval racing, I built both type G and type F products for the simple fact that they are more disposable and easily replaced. Sure I  wanted to run a Mopar, but I wasn't willing to add to the carnage of an already shrinking supply base.

If you aren't racing in regulated venues, or with organized sanctioning bodies, then this is  more of a build of fancy than necessity, which again gets back to why not use inter-family components. Its not  that Dodge is an orphaned brand that necessitates using chevy power, like, say, a Studebaker. There are reasonably priced, powerful combinations of mopar engines out that that would serve this purpose just fine. Heck you already have a P5 set up at your disposal. I  find it hard to beleive a competition P5 build is really 80 pounds heavier than your basic LS junkyard build. Unless you are going all aluminum, in which  case the price of the LS is going to be going up and your costs will easily be near Mopar territory.

The concern about lightness of the engine seems belied by all the tubing required in the fabricated structures to maintain rigidity. It appears you may be creating a net zero gain in that regard, or are going to be creating unintended flex at undesired locations. In the quest for lightweight, you are also  giving up potential in both lightweight and strength by using the nicely curved tube in your current design. Every arch  creates a potential bending point in addition to adding weight. It sure does look  pretty though.

Similarly, looking  at the rack end location for the front steer configuration and combined with the  necessary location that is going to be required by the rod ends and steering arms to maintain decent or even the improved ackerman required for drifting, I think you may be setting yourself up with reverse ackerman and potential bump steer issues.

You do know the roll couple required for succesful drifting and succesful road racing are actually at oppposite ends of the spectrum and a good set up in one does not automatically  mean it is a succesful set up in the other. A road race car is trying to get all four tires to stick while a drift car wants a diliberate loosness in teh rear. A hand brake may initiate a slide, but it will not sustain it of  the roll couple is off.

Of course, if you are associated with Cris Gonzalez or JCG Restorations and Customs at all, then I guess this is all moot and your simply here to continue your LS hybridization of the motorsports world.

[cbrestorations]

i too race and build many types of oval track cars...nascar super late models, asa trucks, modifieds and sportsmans. the ackerman on the wilwood spindles combined with the 16:1 mustang rack and 1.5:1 steering quickner gives me exactly what i want. plus the steering arm on the wilwood spindles is removable allowing me to fabricate a shorter one for even more steering radius. the rack is also positioned with set back to counteract the radius of the steering arm movement. im well aware of the setup from drift to roadrace, but having all adjustable suspension, coilovers and adjustable watts link allows me to help tune between the two. its going to be a street driven, roadrace and drift "toy", something to have fun with, not preofessionally compete with.  as for handbrake it is a very important function in a drift car, it controls the angle of the car on decel entry to mid corner.  i do believe i know what i am building and how to build it...



as for using a dodge charger body, i would never sacrifice a solid buildable  charger body, as they are my favorite car and i own 3 of them already, but when the opportunity came up to buy a wrecked, rotted charger body for $400, i knew what i was going to do with it...full caged, tubular suspension, coilovers, rack, 12" tires bad mofo...

as for using a chevy engine...if i blow it up, cheap to fix, its a toy race car not a show car. when the hood is down, im having a blast and people are watching who really cares....oh wait, the picky diehard mopar or no car people...i dont care, i love all muscle cars but the charger body is my absolute favorite.

i even have a firebird race car with a chevy motor

[HPP]

I'm glad to see you do have some background in the suspension area that is going to help you avoid putting yourself into a wall are into someone elses lane  when you oare n the road. I don't agree with your approach, but good luck with your build.

[Troy]

When you're grinning from ear to ear blasting around in that car it won't matter what anyone's opinions are. You're not the only one who has run up against the lack of an affordable (and competitive) Mopar drivetrain either. The fact that they lock down all their electronics is probably a bigger roadblock/cost than the weight/affordability of the actual engine.

I'd love to do a full frame street legal race car some time but I lack the skills to do it and the money to pay someone to build it for me.

Troy

[kanadanmajava]

This looks interesting. Any idea what's the weight difference between the original and new subframe/suspension/steering setup? And do you have any estimate how much will the front wheels turn before hitting something?

I was thinking about slightly similar subframe solution (also using the Wilwood spindles). But I'm going to keep the torsion bar suspension. Changing the suspension type might cause me some road or racing legality issues in the future.

[JR]

Post pics of the rest of the car man, we need updates.

I do a lot of open track days and would love a charger bodied tube frame car. There was a guy on grassroots motorsports doing the same thing with a used NASCAR chassis and a rusty 70 chevelle body. It was awesome but I can't find the thread anymore.

I was going to ask you about a steering quickener but I see you've addressed that already.

What are you doing for rear suspension/axle? Keeping the 8 3/4 rear? I didn't see if you were keeping the original floors or going full tube frame.

Either way, looks fun.

Also, I see a pretty nice 2nd gen body in primer? Behind the firebird? What's the plans for that one?

[cbrestorations]

it will be 8 point caged but not full tube chassis, i will have to make a new floor as i want a 6 speed and the exhaust to exit out the quarter panels thru the body, rear suspension is torq arm with 2 trailing and a watts link, the body is going to the frame jig this week to get the front clip straightened. i had already removed the inner fender and core support, for that. the wrecking yard i had purchased the body from had written 70 charger hemi/auto on the sail panel but i seriously doubt it was true, even if... there is no way to prove it now, tag and vin number is missing. the primer charger in the background is a daytona clone, i also have a 68 r/t and 69 r/t. i found an old lady who has a a real 69 xx29 car pilled in her garage with crap all over it, im trying to get it from her but need a few more dollars lol.   here is the body for the project. in the lower pic you can kinda see where the yard had written what the body was




im also building the tow truck too,i know its not a mopar...but just showing ive got alot on my plate lol. its a 67 el camino. it could also be played with on cone days being all tubular suspension, aerospace brakes, aluminum hubs, pinto spidles and ls2/6 speed. similar to what will be in charger

[JR]

Thats awesome man, youve got skills. A VINless, rusted, nearly scraped body is the perfect starting point for this. Its not like youre hacking up a restorable car, and I doubt any purist would have one through the trouble to bring that car back. I assume this will be a track only car that wont see street use with no VIN.

It reminds me of how they build the Chargers used in the F&F movies. The ones they start with are in similar shape.

[cbrestorations]

it will be street driven...i have a 69 r/t vin number dash i bought from a swap meet for $50, it has a few bullet holes in it but had that 69 r/t vin attached to it still. i couldnt get the cash out out of my pocket fast enough lol

[Ghoste]

Would I be safe in guessing you might be the only one on the site putting a drift car together?  Interesting build. 

[cbrestorations]

well its not going to be full on drift just a fun multipurpose toy. i wanna hit up that rally school track that roadkill ran with general mayhem too

[Ponch ®]

i know chevy motor but its the lightest, cheapest, easiest hp per $ to build. havent had alot of time to work on her due to paying jobs on others cars

Id like to preface this by also opining that it's your car, build it how you want and for yourself BUT....

I've never understood this logic. "I'm spending /spent $XXXX on suspension and brakes, $XXXX on the interior, $XXXX on bodywork, paint, and fabrication, $XXXX in man hours, oh...but I'm running a Chevy motor because its cheap"

[cbrestorations]

i wont have alot of money in this car, chevy has hemi beat by 100lbs...all the reason anyone would need that understands handling and suspension

[Troy]

i know chevy motor but its the lightest, cheapest, easiest hp per $ to build. havent had alot of time to work on her due to paying jobs on others cars

Id like to preface this by also opining that it's your car, build it how you want and for yourself BUT....

I've never understood this logic. "I'm spending /spent $XXXX on suspension and brakes, $XXXX on the interior, $XXXX on bodywork, paint, and fabrication, $XXXX in man hours, oh...but I'm running a Chevy motor because its cheap"

i wont have alot of money in this car, chevy has hemi beat by 100lbs...all the reason anyone would need that understands handling and suspension

I see both points here. Perhaps, if you've got the tools, equipment and suppliers to build a custom suspension and brakes cheaply you're way ahead of the rest of us. If you were spending $75k I could see the Hemi *cost* argument being pointless. If you have $15k (for example) in the whole car then the cheaper engine is a MUCH bigger factor in the decision. However, you also have an R5 which would not only be wicked in this car but it removes the stigma of an off-brand transplant. Again, most people won't have those options. I think it will be cool either way but one of the attractions to Mopar is that not everyone has one - or can build one - and they aren't everywhere. The Chevy stuff often seems like the cheap and easy way out. And for a race car, cheap and reliable is more important than "exclusive". Although, it sounds as if this is a car to have fun in and not a full blown competition vehicle.

Besides, if you go with the R5 you can ship the LS to me and I'll stick it in my Toyota pickup!

Troy

[cbrestorations]

lol ur right, its just that the r5 is not efi, scarcity on parts, makes no low end power for street, would have to get a bell housing adapter make for 6 speed, and its heavier. butit would sound amazing at 9,000 rpm out the quarter panels lol

[Troy]

lol ur right, its just that the r5 is not efi, scarcity on parts, makes no low end power for street, would have to get a bell housing adapter make for 6 speed, and its heavier. butit would sound amazing at 9,000 rpm out the quarter panels lol

Haha! Yep, it sure would. Not my car and not my money of course. And I don't have to live with it.

According to the sticker on my 70 Challenger it's under 3,300 pounds with the stock 340. My 70 Mach 1 with its 351 Cleveland is about the same. How much weight are you adding back in after stripping everything out? It seems like 2,700 wouldn't be terribly hard to hit - but of course I don't know what a cage and all the other race parts weigh.

Troy

[Ponch ®]

I see both points here. Perhaps, if you've got the tools, equipment and suppliers to build a custom suspension and brakes cheaply you're way ahead of the rest of us. If you were spending $75k I could see the Hemi *cost* argument being pointless. If you have $15k (for example) in the whole car then the cheaper engine is a MUCH bigger factor in the decision. However, you also have an R5 which would not only be wicked in this car but it removes the stigma of an off-brand transplant. Again, most people won't have those options. I think it will be cool either way but one of the attractions to Mopar is that not everyone has one - or can build one - and they aren't everywhere. The Chevy stuff often seems like the cheap and easy way out. And for a race car, cheap and reliable is more important than "exclusive". Although, it sounds as if this is a car to have fun in and not a full blown competition vehicle.

Besides, if you go with the R5 you can ship the LS to me and I'll stick it in my Toyota pickup!

Troy

perhaps it doesn't apply to this particular build because he's doing a lot of work himself, etc...but you see it often with high end street rods and customs. "yeah, so I had to import the ostrich penis skin from Namibia at $3k per square foot for the upholstery, I had these custom unobtanium alloy wheels made because I didn't like anything on the market, and my body guy spent 3000 hours just getting the body prepped for the metal flake paint that uses actual gold from a mine where some kid lost an arm digging for it. And here's the LS motor, because theyre cheap and plentiful"

[Troy]

I see both points here. Perhaps, if you've got the tools, equipment and suppliers to build a custom suspension and brakes cheaply you're way ahead of the rest of us. If you were spending $75k I could see the Hemi *cost* argument being pointless. If you have $15k (for example) in the whole car then the cheaper engine is a MUCH bigger factor in the decision. However, you also have an R5 which would not only be wicked in this car but it removes the stigma of an off-brand transplant. Again, most people won't have those options. I think it will be cool either way but one of the attractions to Mopar is that not everyone has one - or can build one - and they aren't everywhere. The Chevy stuff often seems like the cheap and easy way out. And for a race car, cheap and reliable is more important than "exclusive". Although, it sounds as if this is a car to have fun in and not a full blown competition vehicle.

Besides, if you go with the R5 you can ship the LS to me and I'll stick it in my Toyota pickup!

Troy

perhaps it doesn't apply to this particular build because he's doing a lot of work himself, etc...but you see it often with high end street rods and customs. "yeah, so I had to import the ostrich penis skin from Namibia at $3k per square foot for the upholstery, I had these custom unobtanium alloy wheels made because I didn't like anything on the market, and my body guy spent 3000 hours just getting the body prepped for the metal flake paint that uses actual gold from a mine where some kid lost an arm digging for it. And here's the LS motor, because theyre cheap and plentiful"

Oh, I agree. It's definitely a head scratcher. But so is dropping a crate Hemi into a 318 body without making any other mods. Probably happens about as often...

Troy

[cbrestorations]

im shooting for 2500lbs, with just a simple but tucked real tight to the body 8 point cage.

[HPP]

I don't necessarily buy into a 100# weight difference, but it certainly is one of those "it depends" situation.

Just looking at what's out there on the web, the variety of availability in LS stuff means its all over the map. Heck, even the GM guys debate weights dependent upon generation and model and transmission type. There are some Gen3 LS Vette engines that are in the 450# range, but the Gen 4 LS Vette stuff is all between 475 and 500.  Any of the truck 5.3 LS mills are going to be 500-525 easily. By contrast a truck 5.7 Hemi is going to be 475-500 and an all iron 360 is 550. So yes, at the extreme ends there is the potential of a 100# difference, but I'd bet the common average is going to be closer to 30#. If you are talking about Mopar big blocks, then yes, there is a 100# difference. Some of the R5P7 stuff I've seen shows shipping weights of 500#, so strip away 20# worth of crate and you are in the same sub 500# range.

One thing that I can't disagree with the ease in setting up GM tuning in an EFi system. Mopars are improving, but still not as easy as the GM stuff.

FWIW, The opposed valves, pinched chamber design of the new Hemi will always have more power potential than the inline valve, wedge head of an LS.  But they are cheap to build if you grenade them. JCG Restorations has been through three of them so far in their purple Challenger they are running  in the Optima Ultimate series and they install these in all their cars, Dodge, Mustang, whatever. You'd think they would have their building of LS engines dialed in by now with their fleet and I think they have a pretty big name builder putting them together for them.

[cbrestorations]

long block ls3 is 418lbs with drive accessories. r5 nascar engine is 500lbs with drive accessories, chrysler 340 is 525lb, 440 chrysler is 670lbs, 426 hemi is yea...not gonna happen lol,
i may run the r5 still all ide have to do is make motor mounts, im gathering parts now, its just that i already have a t56 for an LS engine, i already have the ls3, i already have pcm and harness... i have a small budget on this car, mostly using old race parts and extra stuff from my restomod builds.
i dropped the car off at the frame jig today to get the front and rear frame rails straightened. they were just slightly tweaked.

[cbrestorations]

i picked up an entire grill setup from a swap meet for $700 for her

[HPP]

MikeDC has a thread posted in here somewhere on item weights he has removed from his Charger as he went through the rebuild process. I've also seen reference that a bare '68 shell with no bolt on panels and everything stripped from it is around 700#

[Mike DC]

 
That #700-ish figure wasn't my work.  I recall somebody (I can't remember who it was, sorry) was weighing a bare shell during a restomod build and came up with something in the low 600's.  That body was basically all there but it was not a clean unrestored survivor or anything.  

When all my component math for the whole car was added up, there wasn't a whole lot of unaccounted-for weight left over.  So I'm willing to buy the idea of 600-700-lb unibody.

Even the stock subframe rails don't weigh very much alone.  I once carried a bare (solid metal rails but no flooring on it) rear subframe clip for a '70, and was startled at how lightweight it was.  It was not comparable to a hand-fabbed 1/8" rectangular tubing version at all.  The only stock rail that weighs as much as you'd expect is probably the trans crossmember.  It's made of a bit thicker metal than the other sub-rails IIRC.

[cbrestorations]

oh yea, these chargers are very light uni-bodys, once you remove the all the iron engine, suspension, 3rd member and brakes with aluminum components the car could be in the high 2klb range easy

[HPP]

That #700-ish figure wasn't my work.  

No, I saw that number on another site, but I do recall looking over your component list and being impressed with the thouroughness of it all.

[cbrestorations]

when i get my shell back ill put it on the scales to see what it is