Building a 440 with what I have....a little advice needed.

[694spdRT]

I have been thinking about building this engine for over a year and it just doesn't seem like it is going to work like I was hoping. Sorry in advance for the long post and if you don't want to read it all just go to the last paragraph for the big question.

Here is the problem: I want this engine to run on pump gas in the Challenger with a 4 speed.

The engine was built with high compression for truck pulling using 0.030" over TRW 2295 dome pistons and heavy six pack rods. I know this is not the ideal setup but, everything has been balanced and that is what I have to work with. Now the real problem is the block was decked so that the pistons are only 0.015" down in the hole.

I bought the thicker 0.051" head gaskets to help on compression but, even with my open chamber 90cc 906's (I measured them) the compression is going to be 10.91 to 1. Talking with Hughes they thought the 509 cam I have might bleed off enough to run on premium pump gas but, I don't think so. 

I can't use the Speed Pro 2355 pistons or they will be above the deck according to the specs and make the compression even worse. The 2266's are too far down also. Plus, the cost of new pistons is not really in my budget. My thought is to have the dome milled off like Firefighter had mentioned in another post. This would leave me without the 12cc dome and some(?) off of the deck height. I picked 0.020" for a deck height and this gives me 9.67 to 1 compression using the thick 0.051" gaskets or 9.92 to 1 using 0.039" gaskets. It will cost $140 to rebalance it again plus the reassembly but, I can't think of another way to do it short of buying custom pistons. I will be using mildly ported 906's with stock valves, a Holley street dominator intake, Crane 1.6 roller rockers, and a 750 Holley mechanical secondary carb.(All stuff I have BTW)

Here is the main question I need help on?

I would rather spend a little money on a better cam instead of the 509. I like the Engle K56/K58 I used in the Charger last year but will 9.67 to 1 still be to high? I don't know how much can be safely milled off the piston top as about 0.030" down in the hole would be about ideal for compression and the thick gasket?

Thanks





     

[Chryco Psycho]

the bigger cam is not enough to help you out really , it will still ping under load at low RPM but above 2800 you should be good
if you can get down to the 9.8 range you will be ok & can take care of ping with driving style & timing curve

[694spdRT]

So it should work if I get the dome milled off, end up around 0.020" below deck, and use thicker gaskets. At what cam lift do I need to worry with approximately 0.071" of clearance on a flat top without valve reliefs? An Engle with the 1.6 rockers is getting up there on lift. How would I explain to the machine shop to cut proper valve reliefs while they are milling the pistons. This would also help lower compression but I am back to the worry of cutting through the piston top again.

My other thought is old technology but, how would a Mopar 284/484 cam or something similar work using the 1.6 rockers? The lift would be a little more than the 509 with lower duration and I would not need to change my existing valve springs.(the heads are set up for the 509 cam and 1.5 rockers now)

[Chryco Psycho]

my experience with the 484 is that it is a strong cam & with 1.6 rockers it should work very well
not sure on the valve to piston clearance , duration also affect clearance , it is best to measure on each application , Cometic has various head gasket thicknesses up to .080

[firefighter3931]

Mill the domes off the pistons and deshroud the chambers for more volume. Then pick the headgasket to dial in the static compression you're looking for. Cometic makes anything you want in terms of thickness and bore diameter. I would agree with the Engle or some other brand cam over the MP stuff.

Ron

[694spdRT]

Thanks for the help guys.

I was planning on getting Cometic gaskets last year but, the cost was way up there for the slight gain it gave over the 0.051" gasket. I think the thickest one was about what Chryco said at 0.080" and that did not reduce compression enough so the next step was milling the piston. I already have the 0.051" gaskets that were around $100 and would likely never use them in any other build.

The other reason is I would like to keep my options open on the shortblock. In the future I had thought of some Edelbrock 84cc heads. If I mill the pistons flat at 0.015" below deck and use a 0.039" gasket I would still have some hope of quench at 0.054" and the closed chamber head. The compression would be at 10.4 to 1 using the Edelbrock which seems about right. Are valve reliefs more of an issue with the Edelbrock heads than factory iron?

One last thing...there really is no way to get quench on pump gas with a closed chamber iron head without using custom pistons is there? It would seem the compression would get way to high for it to ever work with the 0.060" limit from the piston to head.

[firefighter3931]

If I mill the pistons flat at 0.015" below deck and use a 0.039" gasket I would still have some hope of quench at 0.054" and the closed chamber head. The compression would be at 10.4 to 1 using the Edelbrock which seems about right. Are valve reliefs more of an issue with the Edelbrock heads than factory iron?

One last thing...there really is no way to get quench on pump gas with a closed chamber iron head without using custom pistons is there? It would seem the compression would get way to high for it to ever work with the 0.060" limit from the piston to head.

If you have flattops that are .015 in the hole you could run a .027 cometic which would give you perfect quench. That still wouldn't push you out of the pump gas range with an 84cc closed chamber head, inmo. The valve reliefs are designed for an oem head so they don't lign up with the E-heads. Is it a problem....depends on the combo. For example: mine is a true zero deck flattop combo with a .040 head gasket and closed chamber e-heads. The cam is pretty big by street standards at .585 lift and 264*@.050 duration on a 109 lsa. That combo gave me .079 in/.100ex piston to valve clearance which was as tight as i wanted to run on the street. The duration to a large extent will affect piston/valve clearance as much as lift will. 

I doubt that you'd be running anything that big in yours so i wouldn't worry too much about that issue. It doesn't hurt to check but you should have plenty of room, inmo.

To answer your last question ; i would have to say you're correct. With a zero deck flattop piston and closed chamber head with .040 compressed gasket, the static compression ratio is too high assuming you are using the iron head casting. To dial it in properly, a custom dished piston would be required if you wanted to get it down to 9.5:1 with a tight .040 quench factor. Some might argue that with tight quench you can run increased static but why chance it and possibly ruin the motor. 

Ron

[694spdRT]

What type of duration @ 0.050 cam would be "safe" for both my current build plan and the possible Edelbrock upgrade down the road. I would like to get one that will work with both to save some future money and tear down problems. 

It looks like the compression will be in the 9.7 to 1 range with iron and 10.7 to 1 using the 84cc Eddys. The 440 in my Charger is right at 9.5 to 1 with the Engel K56/K58. It is 224/230 @ 0.050 and I don't have any problems on premium gas. With future carbon build up will 9.7 to 1 be a problem with that duration? Lift will be 0.537 Int/0.555 Exh with that cam so valve clearance "might" be close.

On a side note...because of the valve lift issue if I did decide go the MP 284/484 route would you suggest the 108 LS or the newer 112 LS considering a rough idle is not really a big deal to me.

Thanks

[firefighter3931]

Personally, i like to match the cam to the car and build around it. The gearing and stallspeed are what i base the cam specs on and then piece it together. You can go the other way but if you're too big on the cam and the stall/gearing is too small....the car will feel sluggish.

As for what should work : the engle 230* intake/238* exhaust on a 110 lsa should be ok with 9.7:1 static if you're getting by with a 224/230 with 9.5:1

Of course, this will alter the engine's powerband somewhat but this is still smaller than the 284/484 you're contemplating and way smaller than the 509. A 230* cam will come on hard at 2800-3000 rpm so keep that in mind when choosing a converter and gears.

This will also work well with the e-heads in the future when you decide to step up. This is assuming you're planning on running a hydraulic cam. Personally, i prefer mechanical but there's addition costs with valvetrain upgrades that are required as you know. The stock e-head springs will be fine with that (230/238) engle cam in case you're wondering. 

Ron


Ps. If your guides haven't been trimmed down yet, you will need to do so if you do with the 230/238 engle. The rule of thumb is .510 lift and anything bigger needs some additional guide to retainer clearance. Keep that in mind when choosing the cam.

[694spdRT]

Thanks Ron

The car will be running a 4 speed and probably 3.55 or 3.73 gears. I am using a 833OD with a low 3.08 1st gear so out of the hole will be comparable to a 4.10 rear and regular 833 2.66 1st gear combo.

Thanks for the valve guide advice. The heads had bronze guides installed when I bought them. Is there a way or measurement I can check to tell if they are already setup?

For the Edelbrock head upgrade....are the costs involved with the switch limited to the heads, head bolts, and gaskets or am I missing things?

[firefighter3931]

The edelbrocks will swap right in....no problem. Just the bolts, head gaskets and you're good to go.  If you're running headers be aware...some fit, some don't. The 17/8 "supercomps" don't work, period. The 17/8 "Comps" will work with a few clearance spots on #'s 2 & 8 primary tubes. The headmans 13/4 are supposed to fit good....Runner has those on his e-headed stroker. Of course TTI's fit great but that's to be expected. Stock HP manifolds work fine from what i've seen and read.

As for checking guide clearance, just install a dial indicator on the head and compress the valve until it bottoms out. Depending on the spring that's installed on there it will either coilbind or the retainer will hit the guide....you'll have to verify which it is doing. The 230/238 will require new springs anyway unless yours are specced for an agressive fast ramp grind with the lifts that you'll be using with the new cam. Ideally, you want an additional .060 travel before anything hits or coilbinds as a safety zone. This is very important to get right or big problems can result.

With the combo you've outlined i wouldn't be afraid to run a 230/238 split pattern grind. The combination of low first gear, standard trans and 3.55-3.73 should work quite well. 

Ron

[694spdRT]

I have Hedman 1 3/4" headers that I will be using for this engine so that is good to know. As you can tell I am trying to build this thing on a budget and utilize parts I already have.

I wish the Edelbrocks would allow pump gas with my existing shortblock as I will probably have half their cost in redoing a perfectly good shortblock.  At 11.4 to 1 using the 0.051" gaskets I just don't see it happening with 84cc heads. I haven't heard anybody recommending the 88cc Edelbrocks and I would still be up around 10.9 to 1. 

Hmmm....I just checked the compression calculator and 0.080" cometic gaskets and the 84cc heads would give me 10.6 to 1 compression without touching the shortblock. I know quench is gone going this route though. Decisions, decisions.....

[694spdRT]

I talked with Muscle Motors today and they think the 2295's have an effective dome of 6cc and not 12cc like I was figuring. They also recommended not going over the 0.74" thick cometic gaskets.

That would give me a compression of 9.64 to 1 with the 90cc cast iron heads or 10.16 to 1 with the 84cc Eddy's.

I am waiting for a price for milling the pistons vs buying Eddy heads before I decide which way to go.

[firefighter3931]

I'm pretty sure MM is incorrect on the dome volume. The 2355's are an actual 4cc (as measured) and the 2295's are 12cc from what i've been told allthough i've never measured them and haven't owned any in years.

Here are a couple of pics to compare the two....if the eyebrows in the flattop are 4cc i find it hard to believe the domes are only 6cc. See for yourself. 

Ron

[694spdRT]

Truthfully, I was not really buying the 6cc effective volume either but, it is hard arguing with someone that is doing this everyday. The guy also told me to deck the block to zero deck instead of using a gasket to make the quench so there would be more money out the door. I don't see why the total quench using a gasket to make up the difference is not alright with a street engine.

In my notes from last year the guys at Hughes told me 8cc for an effective volume which is why they thought it might get by on pump gas with the 509 cam and the 0.051" gaskets. I called them this afternoon and I am going to talk with Dave again tommorow as he thought the 0.051" gasket and 84cc head would work with my shortblock but, he wanted to run it through a program they have.

My machine shop also called back and figured about $650 to mill the pistons, hone the cylinders, put in new bearings, and rebalance the shortblock. The Eddy's are around $1,400 with bolts plus shipping. 

[firefighter3931]

In my notes from last year the guys at Hughes told me 8cc for an effective volume which is why they thought it might get by on pump gas with the 509 cam and the 0.051" gaskets. I called them this afternoon and I am going to talk with Dave again tommorow as he thought the 0.051" gasket and 84cc head would work with my shortblock but, he wanted to run it through a program they have.

My machine shop also called back and figured about $650 to mill the pistons, hone the cylinders, put in new bearings, and rebalance the shortblock. The Eddy's are around $1,400 with bolts plus shipping. 

Well, if the domes are 12cc your static compression will be too high even with the .051 gasket and 84cc chamber. The compression ratio works out to 11.37:1 according to the calculator on the Ross website.

Fwiw, the 2295's will sit ~.050 below deck with a "stock" spec 440 which works fine with an 84cc e-head and .040 gasket. The resulting compression is 10.45:1 with that combination but there's no quench. I know someone running this combo and it works fine on pump gas despite the poor quench. The cam is a Comp 294S which is pretty healthy so it's bleeding off some cylinder pressure....but it still runs really strong. It's a shame you decked the block so far but what's done is done....now it's a matter of making it work.

Personally, i would mill the domes flat and run the iron heads with the thick gaskets. Then when you want to upgrade to the e-heads you just use the thin cometic .027 gasket for a 10.7:1 static compression ratio with .042 quench. With the iron heads it should work out to ~9.7:1 which can work if everything is tuned properly and the cam is properly specced. A wider lsa can help by bleeding off cylinder pressure along with the increased duration. The 230/238 on a 112* lsa would probably do well in this application. 

Ron

[694spdRT]

It's a shame you decked the block so far but what's done is done....now it's a matter of making it work.
Ron

I bought the engine already built this way. I pulled the ported and oversized valve 906's off to use in my Charger last year. The engine was built with 78cc chamber 906's, steel shim gaskets, and the 2295's like we have been talking. The compression was 13.25 to 1 as built!

I have another set of heads to put back on it that spec out at 90cc's. Those heads were on a 9.0 to 1 compression 440 with TRW 2266 pistons, tunnel ram, and 509 cam. It would easily rev to 7000rpm so I think those heads will perform well again. So I think you are right in just milling the pistons and setting it up properly now. Out of curiosity I might make a clay cast of the dome just to see how it specs out before I do anything. The machine shop wants to check out the pistons before milling just for safety sake to make sure there is enough meat there. I think he said that 0.130" was the minimum piston top thickness he would want but, I may have heard that wrong.

Thanks for the help Ron.

[firefighter3931]

That sounds like a good course of action. Milling the 2295's flat is the best option for the current build and leaves you with descent possibilities in the future. I'm sure yo'll have no problems with machining those pistons...they're quite thick up top and many have removed the domes in the past to achieve the same goal you are. 

It appears that you're fixing someone elses mistakes but hey....it's workable. 

You're welcome for the feedback.....a little brainstorming never hurts when trying to sort things out. I'm sure you'll do a great job with this engine. 

Ron

[694spdRT]

I called Engle and they seem to agree that the K58/K60 will work well with my combo. They did recommend breaking it in with 1.5 rockers before jumping up to the 1.6's though. Lift would be 0.549"/0.570" with the 1.6's and he figured it would be worth 10-15hp more.

I think the plan is pretty much a go now. 

BTW: I checked my iron heads and they are 346's....don't know why I was thinking 906's. No big deal either way.

Here is the recap:

'69HP short block(balanced)
0.030" over TRW 2295's milled flat 0.015" down w/Fel Pro 0.051" gaskets
Six pack rods with ARP bolts
Steel crank(standard size bearings)
346 heads 90cc's mildly ported with stock valves and bronze guides(Check valve guide clearance)
Engle K58/K60 cam w/matching springs
Crane Gold Race 1.6 rockers
Deep sump oil pan(have this) or a Hemi oil pan
High volume oil pump
Carter fuel pump
Holley street dominator intake
Holley 750 carb
Hedman 1 3/4" headers

   

[firefighter3931]

The build looks good. 

A couple of thoughts :

(1) the crane golds are actually 1.65 allthough they're advertised at 1.6:1 so keep that in mind when checking for retainer to guide and coilbind clearances. The piston to valve might become an issue with the e-heads allthough i don't think you'll have a problem with the 346's. The e-heads have a shallower chamber that places the valves .080 closer to the deck (than stock oem castings)...fyi.

(2) when it's apart you could have some valve reliefs machined into the tops which would aleviate any potential piston to valve clearance issues in the future when you decide to go to the 84cc eddy's. I found this out the hard way when mine was assembled and the tighter clearances and improperly located reliefs (for the e-heads) did limit my cam choices. It worked out fine but i'm at my limit for both lift & duration w/o flycutting the pistons. Just some advice so you can avoid the same pitfalls. 

Ron

[694spdRT]

Thanks for all your help Ron I really appreciate it.

A 1.65 ratio will put the lift at 0.566"/0.588"....hope I don't break something.

I will talk to my machine shop about cutting some reliefs in the pistons which will help the compression some also. I would imagine they can figure the proper placement of the reliefs if I bring in my heads at the time of the machine work or maybe that is common knowledge.

Total out of pocket will be about $650 for the shortblock and $330 for the cam, lifters, and springs. There might be a couple gaskets and valve seals but, other than that I have nearly everything on hand to bolt her back together. Not too bad for a budget 440 buildup.

Now I just hope the 833OD will last a little while behind it.     

Edit:

Ron,

After reading your last post again I am thinking valve reliefs are not going to help much based off of the stock heads....how would we determine where to cut the valve reliefs when I don't have Eddy heads?

[Chryco Psycho]

the 833 OD is based on the 833 Hemi transthey are not that weak !!!

[694spdRT]

the 833 OD is based on the 833 Hemi transthey are not that weak !!!

I hope mine holds up as good as yours did because I plan on having some fun with this car. I wonder why they got such a bad wrap..........

[MOPARHOUND!]

The machine shop wants to check out the pistons before milling just for safety sake to make sure there is enough meat there. I think he said that 0.130" was the minimum piston top thickness he would want but, I may have heard that wrong.

I also have a set of TRW 2295 domed pistons, circa the late 1970s, but plans have changed.  Need the engine to run on pump gas.

How much are they charging you for the milling?

Let us know how it turns out.

[694spdRT]

The machine shop wants to check out the pistons before milling just for safety sake to make sure there is enough meat there. I think he said that 0.130" was the minimum piston top thickness he would want but, I may have heard that wrong.

I also have a set of TRW 2295 domed pistons, circa the late 1970s, but plans have changed.  Need the engine to run on pump gas.

How much are they charging you for the milling?

Let us know how it turns out.

He said that actual machining of the pistons would probably be $125 to $150. The rest is reassembly, balancing, and a few parts.

[694spdRT]

I located and bought a aluminum big block bellhousing today so now I am commited! I plan on dropping the shortblock off later this week to start the machining.