'69 440 cutting out, help please!

[K9COP]

Hey guys, researched the issue and didn't find much except an old (2011) unresolved thread.

My car cut out on me yesterday as if it ran out of fuel (indicated 1/4 tank on gauge). I asked the 'long haired Colonel' to bring some petrol (gas, except it's not....  ) in a can and topped it up. Car started immediately. I didn't notice if the fuel cap 'hissed' as I opened it but it's been behaving a little strangely on filling etc recently. Cutting the petrol station pump off too easily etc

Car has always back fired a bit off throttle, and 'did a big one' today. Cut out again today (completely separate occasion to the back fire), early in another journey, coasted to a stop, immediately restarted.

Questions:

1) I can see that a blocked tank vent line may cause fuel starvation, how do I check this pipe please?

2) Could it be ignition or is the back fire just unburnt fuel in the exhaust?

3) Fuel gauge been even more inaccurate than normal, could this be connected?

Thank you,

K9

[mopar0166]

There seems to be a lot of "what ifs" here

lets start with the spec on your car and engine

a back fire like that can be a lot of things,  hopefully the timing is good and carb is good , if not i would redo that first and have a base to start from

also what ign are you running

[skip68]

I agree, timing and carb is the first place to start.   A bad coil and ballast resistor can also cause cutting out and stalling.   It can sit for awhile and then start right back up like nothing's wrong.   The fact that you say its backfiring is something that has been happening I'd check timing first.
Are you running electronic distributor or the old points type?   If it's points I'd say you need to clean and adjust them or replace them.   

[mopar0166]

I think time well spent would be to go over the whole thing reevaluate your setup, maybe make some upgrades. 

I know life with a MSD ign system and a gm charging system has made life easier for me.  as for a carb i only use holley stuff. 



Make sure you have a good electronic timing light and that thiers no excessive vaccum leaks especially if your trying to run original stuff.  Once you hit a sweet spot for timing , you should also be tuning the Carb for that timing. 

Let us know your setup and im sure the great people here and myself can help you out. 

[K9COP]

Thanks guys. I'll make notes of my set up and post it on here. I'll change out the ballast resistor anyways, but this is a new condition, so that implies something must be changing/wearing to me.

I'm not familiar with what's on my car from memory to be honest, so I'll go write it all down and post it up here...

K9

[K9COP]

OK guys, here's my set up:





My carb:



So as I understand it, that's an Edelbrock carb, Holley 'Street Dominator' intake, electronic ignition, and the/an original fuel pump.

I need to stress that this is a new condition, car has been running fine for two years since I've had it. Can timing move? Distributor clamp is tight. I'd say it has always been a bit 'fuelly' and seems to be running very rich. The only thing I can think of that's changed is a switch to non-ethanol fuel at the local petrol station. The first time it happened, the car slowly died as if running out of fuel, the last two times it occurred, it just instantly died, tach and all... these were from a hot start, but in cool weather, does this imply a pattern? Time for a phenolic spacer? If so, what thickness and do I buy one with an open throat, or four ports?

Any thoughts please guys?

[303 Mopar]

My 440 was cutting out around 52-55 mph.  I put in a new fuel filter and changed the meter rods and springs and runs much better.  I have a eddy 600 cfm, which I plan to switch to an 850 as soon as funds allow, and I'm now running 65-42 rods with pink springs.  I'm in Denver so altitude needs to be considered.  Hope this helps.

[K9COP]

Does it matter how full the tank is?

K9

[drifter69]

My car was surging and acting a lot like yours. Crap ethanol fuel seems to be the issue for me. I solved all of my issues by: 1 Not running ethanol fuel when ever possible. 2 insulate fuel lines all the way from the tank to the carb. 3 spacer between carb and manifold and heat shield under that to reflect heat away from bowls of carb. Moral of the story is to keep your fuel cool. I have run the ethanol pump gas with every insulated and have not had problems but there is a loss of power with this fuel.

[mally69]

If your not certain it's fuel ,Check your grounds, and also I've had some issues with the Orange mopar ignition boxes in the past that acted similar but a little more extreme than what your experiencing.  Also voltage regulator caused mine to not start at all. Just some ideas to look into.

[K9COP]

OK, so today I put on a 1/2" phenolic spacer and a 'cool tube' (insulation) on the main petrol feed line where it goes past the exhaust manifold/headers. I also rerouted the carb supply line from the pump forwards and up behind the alternator and over the valve cover into the carb. I may swap the fuel lines to braided steel and cool tube the supply line too....

Fingers crossed....

K9

[K9COP]

Guys, could this be a choke issue? Here is my carb. after a 30 mile journey, on a hot day, with the car up to temperature:



Is this choke fully 'off'? It just seems like it is running so rich all the time, and even stalls out when cold. Do I need to dial back the choke now the weather is hot?

Thanks,

K9

[myk]

That is an open choke...

[K9COP]

OK, thanks. Having read up on it, that's kinda what I assumed, but I'm not even sure it's coming on, i.e. I have yet to establish if on a cold engine, the electronic choke fully closes (ish to 1/8") the butterfly, and then releases it as temperature increases. It's been a bit** to start. I'm now wondering if it's gone the other way and not deploying the choke at all. I've ordered a new choke cap for the carb, but a full depression on the accelerator from cold before starting does NOT have any effect on the carb choke. Should it or is it just deployed by the choke cap and bi-metallic spring?.

For what it's worth I have good ground on the -ve terminal, 12V at the +ve terminal of the choke cap in the 'run' position, and I can feel that (the choke cap) getting hot when in 'run' on the ignition switch.

I did enrichen slightly the position of the choke cap today as it was wayyyy over to the lean (anti-clockwise) direction.

Other symptom, it feels like the car is only just catching when I release the key. I've had that before and replaced the ignition switch. Time for another one?

K9

[K9COP]

Would a stretched/worn throttle cable cause the choke to not be engaged?. I think I read the choke is heat activated (hence the hot wire to the choke cap) but if that's the case, what does the first full depression of the accelerator pedal do?


K9

[K9COP]

Some progress. I think

I checked the ballast resistor. The one in the car, and all my spares, read the same, 0.8ohms. However while checking the one in the car, I found that the left hand wire-end terminal (as you look at the resistor from the front of the car) was VERY loose, as if it wasn't really connected. Not burned or 'arc'd', just v. loose. I crimped the terminal a bit, and swapped the resistor, AND swapped the coil for a regular old 'Coils-R-Us' coil.

Problem apparently solved.... I just don't really know how......

For now it's back to starting immediately, and running (fairly) cleanly...

I guess I could swap the old coil back in and try it, or the old resistor, and try it, but it appears to be back to normal now, so I'm gonna leave it be...

K9

[K9COP]

Nope it seems like I spoke (to myself, apparently ) too soon. Tonight was a nightmare journey, from cold, in warm weather, with several cut outs and three or four massive backfires, one each,  (after-fires I guess) as the car cuts out. Almost immediately restarted, and car runs fine when warm. Do I need to adjust the choke cap again?

A little help please guys..

Thanks, K9

[Dino]

Looking at the pic of the carb I can only give this advice: remove it, clean it, rebuild it and tune it.  That's some serious deposits you have there!

Any issues you may have after that will likely demand you focus on the ignition system as the carb issues will be resolved.  It may be time for some fresh spark plugs as well. 

[K9COP]

Thanks Dino, that's good advice....update from yesterday:

I had a look at the 'orange box' when I got home today, to discover it should actually have a screw holding that plug in to it. I didn't know that and mine was missing. I took the box out of the car and had a good look at the pins. If I really wanted to, I could say that the lower right pin (to the distributor) was a bit oxidised and burned..ish, and the female terminal in the plug was a bit opened out (and nobody wants that.... ) and corroded.

I cleaned up the pins and plug terminals with DeOxit, closed the circular female terminals up a bit in the plug, and found a screw to fit. It's a pretty crappy arrangement, as the screw screws into a compression fit cap in the middle of the pins on the box, and the screws' natural action is to pull that cap out when you tighten it.  I arranged the wires slightly differently too, to take any movement with the torque of the engine out of the equation. I guess I don't really understand what each component does, so I should educate myself really.

It appears to start and idle better now, hasn't cut out since I did 'the fix', either driving or idling, but it's early days yet....

I suppose a spare box is in order, but hopefully I've found the issue.

K9

[69wannabe]

You need to pull a few spark plugs and see if any of them are fouled(black) and get a reading on where your timing is. Initial timing should be in the 14 to 16 range BTDC idiling with the vacuum advance plugged off. It that a 750 edelbrock carb??? May need to check your fuel pressure going up to the carb and see if your pressure is low and causing it to be lean a pop back through the carb. I am firm believer in the carter street fuel pump's with the 6 psi setting and it is 110gph or maybe 120gph. Anyway it's a hi performance fuel pump that you do not have to use a regulator for and mancini racing still sell's them if your fuel pressure turn's out to be an issue. Sounds like a low timing or fuel issue to me. The edelbrock carbs are not my first choice but I have had a few good one's and a few bad one's so that could go either way.

[RollinThunder]

If i'm seeing correctly, one of the 1st pictures with the carb and hoses.  Looks to me like you have the brake booster hose going into the carburetor PCV port, and the PCV hose from the valve cover going into manifold vacuum.  I would switch those around.

[K9COP]

I'll check that.

Thanks bud and welcome to the forums!

K9

[K9COP]

I've checked my car against pictures of other 440's online, and it appears, as rolling thunder said, I have some vacuum hoses wrongly connected. This is how my car has always been set up, by the previous owner, since I've owned it (3 years now).

I guess I don't understand the implications of this, so questions please:

1) Does it matter?

2) Does anyone have a 'correct' vacuum hose diagram so I can correct it please?

Thanks,

K9

[K9COP]

OK, Google and 'dodgecharger.com searches haven't revealed a definitive hose routing diagram. Below is pics of how my car is set up. PCV hose goes to a port on the rear right corner of intake manifold (Holley Dominator), and is 't'd' off to the front of the carb with a small line. The hose from the brake servo goes to the front of the carb with a large hose:









Any thoughts please gents/ladies?

K9

[70 sublime]

If you have the PCV hose going in where you do will it not just put the oily air into just one cylinder all the time ?
I think if it was at the front it would get mixed and go evenly every cylinder

[K9COP]

If you have the PCV hose going in where you do will it not just put the oily air into just one cylinder all the time ?
I think if it was at the front it would get mixed and go evenly every cylinder

Honestly, I don't know  I'm here to learn . So do I swap the large PCV hose from the intake to the large point on the front of the carb, and have the large hose from the brake booster go to the intake? If so, what do I do with the small hose/port that is attached to the carb and the PCV now?

I'm more of an OBDII kind of guy...sorry...

K9

[Dino]

Yeah I'd swap those hoses.  Pcv to the carb, booster to manifold.

[birdsandbees]

What ^^^ said ! Brake booster goes to the manifold port, PVC to the carb.

[K9COP]

Thanks guys. I'll do that. Do I leave the small hose on the intake port 'T'd' to the front of the carb?  Trying my best not to be spoon fed here, but just want to understand...

I'm absolutely NOT doubting anybody here, but trying to understand why.... could the car always have been running rough on one cylinder (rear right) because it was filling with dense, oily air?

K9

[Dino]

Ha I didn't even notice the hose going from intake tree to the carb!  Remove it and cap them.

Sure you can definitely have an unbalanced burn.  Check your plugs and find out.   

[K9COP]

Thank you Sir! I'll take care of the hoses tomorrow, and replace the plugs too. I have a set waiting, but was looking for a solution before I put another set in to get fouled up!

As always Dino, guys, thanks for being generous with your knowledge and time.   

K9

[BLK 68 R/T]

Once you do get the vacuum lines connected correctly, brake booster line to rear intake port, PCV line to front of carb large port, small line on the right front of carb should go to the distributor advance, cap the other one and no tee in the rear line. You will most likely also need to adjust your idle speed and ignition timing as well to compensate for all the changes being made to the vacuum system. Also don't forget to undo the vacuum line to the distributor and plug it when you are setting your timing.

[K9COP]

Once you do get the vacuum lines connected correctly, brake booster line to rear intake port, PCV line to front of carb large port, small line on the right front of carb should go to the distributor advance, cap the other one and no tee in the rear line. You will most likely also need to adjust your idle speed and ignition timing as well to compensate for all the changes being made to the vacuum system. Also don't forget to undo the vacuum line to the distributor and plug it when you are setting your timing.

Thanks for the information. I think the distributor advance should go on the left (drivers side) port though, as in the diagram I just found online below.... probably should have found this sooner...:



I'll put rubber caps over the tee on the PCV valve and the timed vacuum port on the Carb. Makes me wonder why it was done this way though.....

K9

[BLK 68 R/T]

I had mine hooked up to the right hand side on my 68 GTX and it worked just fine. Never tried the other one though. It also had the mopar electronic ignition dist. installed. Honestly I have no idea what the difference is in the vacuum signal between the 2 ports. maybe someone else will chime in with a more definitive answer on why to use one vs the other.

[K9COP]

I had mine hooked up to the right hand side on my 68 GTX and it worked just fine. Never tried the other one though. It also had the mopar electronic ignition dist. installed. Honestly I have no idea what the difference is in the vacuum signal between the 2 ports. maybe someone else will chime in with a more definitive answer on why to use one vs the other.

Looking at the diagram above, it seems to be just the difference between 'timed' vacuum and manifold vacuum depending on whether the vehicle is emissions controlled or not...

K9

[69wannabe]

Get a look at the spark plugs and see what they look like. Pic's of them would tell if you are too rich or too lean. I would plug off the vacuum advance on the distributor and run it without it hooked up. Mine has been plugged off for several year's with no issues. Chrysler's and ford's were bad about over advancing and causing it to spark erratically. Need to get your ignition system perfect then your carburetor will usually be easier to work with...

[K9COP]

Got it. Looking at my car, and the pictures again, and it has a small vacuum hose coming FROM the pcv on the right valve cover to the small right hand vacuum advance port on the carb, the a all hose going between the left (drivers side) vacuum advance port to the distributor..  Now that can't be right!


Pulling plugs tomorrow.

K9