I NEED YOUR HELP!

[Flamdremon]

Ok so here is the deal. Im starting a project this summer. a 1970 charger r/t. (wanted to for so long but didnt have the cash but now i do) I was wondering a few things. How much does a charger weigh with only the essentials for racing left in it? with or without its motor. (passenger seats taken out ex ex ex) now the next part. What is the cheapest option of getting 900ish horsepower (goal is to get into the loooowwwww 9s in the quarter) without Nos. yes I KNOW IT WONT BE CHEAP im just asking of all the options whats the cheapest way. And if a hemi is even an option (even if it costs more) ied like some insight on that too. I appreciate all the help i can get here.

[68X426]

A Hemi (of any generation, and any build) is not an option.  The words cheap and Hemi cannot be used in the same sentence.  Take it from this Hemi owner.

Use a bored and stroked 440 and great heads.  A 440 will offer the most bang for the buck.  The professional builders on the forum will provide the details.

[Flamdremon]

I understand it wouldnt be cheap but do you have any rough numbers for the hemi job? Im just trying to gather as much info as possible.

[68X426]

Hemi with 900 horses is likely $30,000 and maybe $40,000.  A hot 440 could be in the 15-20k range.  Again, listen to the experienced builders who will post here over the coming week.  Be patient.

I'll say the obvious too:  you'll need to spend big bucks to get the power to the ground (trans, diff, frame, suspension, tires).

[Challenger340]

A well built carbureted HEMI above 900hp on pump gas(91 octane) runs around $35K, but should get you there depending upon the Charger/Suspension etc. built to handle that power level.
see here:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,96184.0.html

Plus 900 Hp Wedges,(again carbureted no Blower or Nitrous) are not much cheaper at that level.

[skip68]

   
Welcome to the site.   Go to our performance section and you can get answers there quicker.  There is also a proven engine combos section from guys that have built and dyno tuned motors.   Good luck.  

[JB400]

Just a suggestion:  Don't start with a 70 Charger.  Instead, build up a tube chassis  and skin it to resemble a 70 Charger.  If you start with a 70, you'd cut quite a bit of it out anyway to get the car safe for competition and to get the car to hook up.  Even after you cut everything out, it's still going to be fairly heavy compared to a tube chassis.  Also, you'd probably end up buying new quarters, tail panel and light weight front end doors and trunk.

  A tube chassis would be safer, lighter, and should be able to handle the horsepower that you're wanting.

[Homerr]

Welcome the DC.

Do you need to get to your goal on the first try?  Have you built a car before?  Do you have the car already?  What is your overall budget?

[Flamdremon]

Its probably going to be a 2-3 year project with a 40-60k budget depending on what i want to do and what money i have. And ied like to get it on the first try if possible. And i dont quite undertand the roller idea

[ACUDANUT]

KEITH BLACK race Hemi's get what ? 1500 horses ? 

[Mike DC]

  
Tube chassis + Chevy drivetrain + 70 Charger outer skin.  Its not what you want to hear but it's the most cost-effective way to get there.  

If you don't wanna do the Chevy drivetrain then use a 440-based setup.  Hemi stands for Have Enormous Money Invested. 

The "70 Charger outer skin" can be a fiberglass shell.  Or it can be just the roof & sides of the steel car mounted onto a custom floor/cage.  Either way don't start with a decent solid '70 Charger R/T body when you'll be cutting off the undercarriage & gutting everything for custom work anyway.  You can buy a $1000 rusty Charger shell with no solid frame that will do the job almost as well.    




Or you can toss the ideas of 900 hp and 9-sec quarter miles, and just build the car you were picturing in your mind (which was probably more like 12 sec in reality).  You will probably be happier with it IMO, and you'll have tens of thousands of dollars less invested.  

[Flamdremon]

Mike can you go in depth for me with your idea? It sounds like something i might do.

[JR]

9 second quarter?

Gutted shell of a car?

I'm assuming you want to build a real life version of Toretto's 70 from F &F?

If you only want to drag race it I'll suggest buying an already built, former race car that's been back halved you can tune/tweak however you like. Chassis work isn't cheap. (No good work is, actually).

I have to ask, do you have experience drag racing or building drag cars? From the sound of your questions it seems like you're looking to jump into something brand new. If that's the case, I wouldn't start out with a 2 ton, 900hp anything. I'd start smaller, cheaper and slower and work up from there.

[Flamdremon]

Im new to building not racing. I drove my ex's dads full blown dragster 2 summers in a row and it went 7.9s  but yes i am new to the building scene and to ur other question fast and furious has nothing to do with it. Im going to go through with this no matter how long it takes to get there. But building shouldnt be TOO terrible i have quite a few friends who know a lot about it that will help me. I just thought ied get some expert advice from you guys before I go too far.

[Wicked72]

Stroke a 440 to 540+ then add a supercharger, I'd go pro charger from the super charger store. You'll be around 1400hp At around 14lbs boost. Full cage, 4 link, ford 9 inch rear. 727 trans from monster. Huge slicks, big gears. I skipped many details yes.  $75,000 all said a done? And alot faster then 9

[Mike DC]

   
Is this thing gonna be a street-driven car?

There are about 3 possible answers:


#1.  A true street car. 
This thing has windshield wipers.  The E-brake works.  It will not run 9s.

#2.  A claimed street car that isnt really one. 
It might have license plates & registration but it's a formality.  There are a lot of cars that claim to be cruisers that are really this. 

#3.  A true track-only car. 

[Flamdremon]

Whats the price difference going to be if i want it to be street legal or not?

[Wicked72]

What you ultimately want from this car? Over powered street car, street/strip, or race only?

[Flamdremon]

Ied like to be able to drag race it AND be able to drive it around but it depends on the price difference. If having it street legal is gonna 2x or 3x the price then maybe not

[303 Mopar]

Its not possible to have a nice streetable car that is also a top drag car too.  You will have a better street car that doesn't do great at the track, or a top drag car that after about 15 min you will hate driving around on the street.   

[Flamdremon]

Theres gotta be a way to get a 9 Second street car.

[ACUDANUT]

Im new to building not racing. I drove my ex's dads full blown dragster 2 summers in a row and it went 7.9s  but yes i am new to the building scene and to ur other question fast and furious has nothing to do with it. Im going to go through with this no matter how long it takes to get there. But building shouldnt be TOO terrible i have quite a few friends who know a lot about it that will help me. I just thought ied get some expert advice from you guys before I go too far.

Don't dragsters do like 4.0 sec. in the quarter mile ?

[Homerr]

If you're going to chop the hell out of a 70 Charger please consider doing it to a non-R/T car.

[Challenger340]

It would not hurt at this point in your planning stages, to google some of the many online Drag Race calculators,  MPH/E.T., H.P/Weight, etc.

Plug is some Vehicle W/Driver weights on the 1/4 Mile E.T range you wish to run, and at least get an idea of Engine requirements.
From there,
you will need to realize that the equipment necessary on the Vehicle, to support that power being able to run those E.T.'s comes into play.
Things like:
* a 4-Link Suspension to PLANT all the power to the tires
* Back-Half or tubbing the rear of the car, to get sufficient Balonies out back to Hook.
* 5500 stall Convertor and Tranzbrake(there is a direct correlation to the E.T. in the required 60/330 ft time)
* Fuel system front to back, Cooling system, Ignition system, 8 point RollBar and tie the unibody together with frame connectors, and on and on.

Long story short here....
Alot of the above can be made streetable, but "maintenance" becomes very expensive ?
For example: Coil over Race Shocks & Hyme ends were NOT designed for the rigors of street driving ? I suspect within a couple of thousand miles depending upon the roads they will all need replacement to stay safe ?

Starting from scratch with a B-Body ? Engine/Trans/Suspension & Vehicle upgrades ? I am thinking a guy could dump $75K just on the mechanical side all said and done ? with NO BODYWORK !

[Daytona R/T SE]

Build a Dart or other "A" body.

They're light weight, cheap and totally worthless for anything else.

[Troy]

My advice: set clear goals and have a plan before you buy a single part, fire up a welder, or turn a wrench. This will save way more money than anything else you do.

You can remove a lot of stuff from a car to save weight. Unfortunately, a lot of that heavy stuff is required to drive on the street (working lights, real bumpers, full exhaust, etc.). So you have to compromise.

Then, once you remove all that stuff you'll have to put on more heavy stuff (cage, tires, oil system, etc.).

As mentioned, "race" parts don't last long on the street. If your idea of "street driven" means a 3 mile hop to the local cruise-in once a month then I wouldn't stress about it much. If you want to drive 20 miles on the highway to work every Friday it's a whole new ball game.

A lot of power often means a filled or partially filled block. Couple that with a race water pump, high compression, and traffic and you'll probably be fighting cooling issues non-stop.

Then what do you do about gas? A small fuel cell and a big power motor means you'll only have maybe 40 miles to work with. If you're running race gas you can't just pull over and fill up at Shell.

Race cars don't need awesome paint and body work. People are a little pickier with street cars. This is an area where you can dump a lot of money in a hurry if you aren't following a solid budget plan.

If you want to drive on the street you can probably ignore all the advice about a tube chassis. You won't be legal in most places. Check local laws *first*.

A spooled rear axle, giant tires, and huge gears will suck to drive on the street - especially with an automatic trans with a high stall. (Although a stick shift with race clutch wouldn't be any more fun in traffic!)

Troy

[70 sublime]

Put a trailer hitch on the Charger and use it to pull the Dart drag car to the track

Think you would have more fun and be able to have a good car for both worlds for close to the same money as just chopping up the Charger

[Mike DC]

Put a trailer hitch on the Charger and use it to pull the Dart drag car to the track

Think you would have more fun and be able to have a good car for both worlds for close to the same money as just chopping up the Charger

Best advice yet.


I will add, "Buy both cars already mostly done" to that.

[Flamdremon]

Well I plan on having this car the rest of my life and I would like to have it built mostly by me even though it costs more than buying one mostly finished. Heres what my GOAL is. !970/charger r/t barely street legal. (i just want to be able to say Its street legal and maybe drive it down the street once in a while thats all) then mostly race it in the summer. I just like the idea of knowing my car is fast and street legal in the back of my mind. Thats MY idea of a dream car. We all have different ideas of what a dream car is otherwise this wouldnt be as much fun or as special So here it is (barely street legal 1970 r/t. with 800 maybe 900 hp depending on the cost.) maybe a hemi depending on the cost later. And to do the quarter somewhere in the 9s.

[70 sublime]

Do you own a 70 R/T Charger now ??

[Flamdremon]

No but im going to start in a month. Ill be buying the body at lease at some point soon though

[Flamdremon]

1

[68X426]

1

Hey Koryzazu, are you the Koryzazu that posted on the Camaro forum a few years ago?  If so, good to see that you found the light in the Mopar world.

Flamd: what you are describing is a '68 Hemi Dart.  That is a real world and do-able 9 second killer machine.  I believe that Ray Barton is still building them for the public.

http://www.b2cars.com/for_sale.php

http://www.streetlegaltv.com/news/68-hurst-hemi-dart-l023-is-this-the-worlds-fastest-muscle-car/

[Wicked72]

Turboz my friend. http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/  these guys make my dream hemi. But you can build a badass twin turbo wedge that is an easy 9 second capable car. But keep in mind once you drop that money into the motor. You'll need the rest of the parts to hold up and match the goal. That kind of power and speed there should be no compromise in parts.  A turbo car will do what you want, very street friendly and can be cranked up at the track. Hell you can have the car setup with street tires then swap over to slicks on race day. I'd get setup with goodies from us cartool, sw race cars, and QA1. Monster brand 727 with a gear vendors od or get a t56 but an auto will be faster imo.

[Wicked72]

Twin turbo Haze @ 6psi: https://youtu.be/KTP6lvAIR2w. I talked to this guy a few times, very nice and gave me a lot of info. He was running I think twin t60 at the time. And he drove it everywhere too. 9s is fast as hell. I think he's in the 7s now. Also keep in mind you say you want to keep this car forever. Watch this guy's videos and see how hard it is on the car. It gets beat to hell.

[68X426]

A very sweet '68 Hemi Barracuda.  $125k (or offer) buys a great car and 8 second times.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Plymouth-Barracuda-Hemi-/141634486960?forcerrptr=true&hash=item20fa12c2b0&item=141634486960

[Flamdremon]

Yea that was me on the camaro forum but I sold my z28. ive since been educated a bit since then... but seriously im still pretty firm on the 70charger r/t. Regaurdless of how long it takes to get there.

[Flamdremon]

Can somebody tell me what the car(70charger) would weigh with no engine with ONLY the essentials to race (cage ex ex ) at regulations to be street legal and ableto race at 9 seconds.

[Mike DC]

A big-block 68-70 Charger with the interior gutted weighs about 3400 lbs.  No seats, no HVAC, etc. 

If you get serious about yanking odds & ends, and starting to mess the car up then you can lose another 200 lbs.  At this point you have no side windows, the headlight door assemblies are fixed open & gutted, the dashboard is homemade, etc.

A stock (all-iron) 383/440 with a 727 trans is maybe 850 lbs total.  

Fiberglass front end is worth another 150 lbs.  Doors & trunklid & rear bumper are worth maybe another 75-100.  (But for a drag car you may want everything behind the doors to remain steel for weight distribution.) 

[Mike DC]

Look at the orange Dart in this thread:

http://www.moparstyle.com/forums/showthread.php?1343-Tube-frame-chassis




That's a tube chassis type of build.  The roof & sides/doorjambs of a stock unibody shell get fitted over the top of a custom-built tubular chassis designed for drag racing.  It keeps the stock doorjambs/hinges/etc but it does not keep the stock dash/firewall.  Stock floor is all gone too.  

If you wanna go fast then you will be getting pretty close to this one-step-at-a-time.  You can save yourself some trouble by just starting off this way.  It also means you don't need a complete & solid (read: expensive) Charger to start with.  A rough shell with the lower half rotted away isn't worth much.

The whole outer skin & many other parts of the '68/69 Charger is available in a catalog now.  The '69 stuff also mostly fits the 1970 car from the windshield on back. The 1970-specific front end sheetmetal is not being reproduced.  But you would have wanted the 1970-specific front end to be done in fiberglass anyway.

[Lennard]

Check out the street legal '70 Charger from a buddy of mine.

http://voodoohemiracing.nl/race-cars.html

[Flamdremon]

Ok guys get ready to yell at me. Would a 632 fit in the 70 charger r/t?

[Challenger340]

Ok guys get ready to yell at me. Would a 632 fit in the 70 charger r/t?

Not going to yell at you, no point.
But really here, someone should at the very least....... point out the utter stupidity of your question ?
Obviously,
pretty much anything can be made to fit anything else ?......  when it comes to North American V-8's ?

The real question would be "why" ?
Still trying to find a "cheaper" way to fit the budget ?   

[Flamdremon]

I'm not trying to be (cheap and cut corners ) I'm just trying  to figure out the cheapest way to do it and not waist too much money

[Challenger340]

I'm not trying to be (cheap and cut corners ) I'm just trying  to figure out the cheapest way to do it and not waist too much money

There is trying to prevent "waste" as it relates to costs in a project.... and then...... there is "running low 9's Street Legal in a 1970 Charger" ?

GET the picture here ?

Come up with a budget FIRST !
Then, research feasibility/costs to your goals.

[Troy]

If you're going to mangle a car that much what's the point in needing it to be an R/T? You're just going to overpay to purchase the car simply because it's an R/T. Now if it's a gutted rustbucket the difference between an R/T and a base model might only be $1,000 - but there's still a premium. The 70 is the rarest of the 2nd generation years so you have to fight availability as well.

I also think that at that level a Hemi really isn't going to cost that much more than a wedge (if any).

There was a guy here for a while that took his really nice Charger racing. As he got faster and got the "speed bug" more he finally realized that he was destroying his car. He sold it and bought a Duster I believe. It was lighter, faster, and already modified so it was less work/money to get where he wanted. I think he eventually sold it as well and bought a Chevy. I said all that to say... sometimes it's not practical for one car to meet all your dreams. A small, light, cheap, track only car will get you your speed "fix" and still leave you enough money to have a fairly nice Charger "driver". I got tired of trying to make a big truck work as a daily driver, car hauler, and date mobile. It didn't do anything well and cost more to do everything. *If* I were to go racing I'd have a 5.0 Mustang or something similar (possibly a Dart but the ones I like aren't cheap either). If I wanted to go around corners it would be an RX-7, 240sx, etc. In either case it would be a dedicated track car without anything that wasn't required. There's no point in hamstringing yourself with regulations and/or fighting physics. If I were to blow it up or crash I wouldn't be terribly worried and I wouldn't have wasted a pile of money. And I'm saying this as a person with a whole pile of Mopar project cars (and parts!) littering my shop.

Mike seems reasonable with his weight. I was with another Mike in his 70 Hemi Charger and it weighed 4,400 (if I remember right) on the truck scales in street trim with two of us and car show stuff in the trunk (chairs, cooler, etc.). Losing all the baggage, 10-12 gallons of fuel, and passenger takes it to about 4,000. Removing seats, carpet, padding, various door and window hardware, A/C, console, spare tire, loose change, and whatever else you can find gets it down to 3,500-3,600. Or you can go the other way: a bare shell is maybe 1,200 and add 2,400+ pounds of stuff (fenders, doors, hood, deck lid, bumpers, glass, front suspension, rear suspension, brakes, engine, transmission, drive shaft, grill, pedals, steering column, seat(s), roll cage, lights and wiring). You can use fiberglass body panels, lexan windows, and aluminum components in the drive train to save weight - possibly at the expense of street driving.

In the end, you're still heavier than a small block Challenger, Mustang, or Dart/Duster in full street trim. Speed comes down to power to weight ratio. Power is often correlated to money. It makes sense that if you want to save money and go fast that the first objective is to cut weight. You can't cut as much weight if you still want to be street legal. Fine, just spend more money.

Again... plan, plan, plan! Be realistic about what you want and how to get there. If you can't build the power for the money you have then readjust your priorities and run the numbers again. Big projects have a way of getting out of hand in a hurry.

Troy

[Flamdremon]

Troy Im not gonna budge at all from my plan. Im going to get a 9 Second street legal charger. I dont care if it takes 3 or 4 years to get there. It really doesnt matter. I think with a 632 at 1050hp it can be done without gutting it completely. What are your thoughts?

[JB400]

Is this the direction you want to go?:

http://fastraces.org/


   

[303 Mopar]

I'm not trying to be (cheap and cut corners ) I'm just trying  to figure out the cheapest way to do it and not waist too much money

Come up with a budget FIRST !
Then, research feasibility/costs to your goals.

And once you have a budget, double it and you will be close.....

[68X426]

not gonna budge at all from my plan -  -  -  What are your thoughts?

How ironic your statement.  You're not going to BUDGE, or did you really mean to say that you're not going to BUDGET  

You won't budge, so why ask for thoughts?     The opinions will soon be only about you and your personality, not about building a car.

It's obvious that you are cheap.  Nothing personal.  It's ok, be proud of it, embrace it. 

Please stop with the nonsense of "I'm not cheap, but how do I build an expensive car the cheapest way". 

Budge or don't budge, budget or don't budget.  Simple fact - you cannot build a $100,000 car for $20,000. 

Those are my thoughts. Thank you.

[68X426]

Is this the direction you want to go?:

http://fastraces.org/


   

Great suggestion.  Dave and those guys are incredible with what they do and how they do it.

[JB400]

Thank you.   It's the only other alternative that I see to get him in the direction that he wants to go.

[Flamdremon]

Im willing to go almost 50k. I wouldnt consider that cheap considering im only 21. Im saying if possible I would RATHER be in the 30-35k range. Theres nothing wrong with WANTING to save money. Its stupid to criticize me. Im just asking what the best way to go about a 9 second charger is that is still street legal. When i say im not going to budge i mean that Im not going to settle for a 10 second car. nor do i want to switch the body to a different car or make it non street legal. THAT is what im saying. Im on this forum because there are a lot of smart people on here that im sure have great input on how this can be done or at least some good guidelines. Im stupid and young and im going to make mistakes but im going to tell you this car isnt going to be one of them.

[ACUDANUT]

21 Years old ?. I'd save your money. 

[Mefirst]

Just some comments about what your trying to do... I'm doing/done the exact thing your thinking about.. Im not running any 9s yet, but on my way there...

First off, if this is your dream, a 9sec Charger, then GO for it! Don't let any one stop you!

...To get a car to run in the 9´s does not take a scientific degree.... You do need +900Hp to plant the car there firmly, that's with a full weight 4000Lbs Charger. -Yes, a totally gutted Charger will get there with less, but whats the fun in that?

So a +900Hp engine will need a transmission to survive the power. A 727 could be made to last but a T400 may be a better choice. Now you need a rear axel, so Dana60 or a 9", your pic.. Your front and rear suspension will need some attention. In the rear CalTRacks, monoleafs and DA shocks, then your golden. Pic a tire, slick or dragradial... The frontend does not need that much work, good set of DA shocks and no binding/over tightend parts..

These are the basics.. Now some details... A N/A lets say 950Hp engine will probably be a small maintenance "nightmare", we're talking rollercam, high comp, etc.. Well a nice stroker Hemi with some 600cids would make that kind of power, no problem, but I don't want to think about the cost.. So N/A engine is out! Or may be not, build a solid foundation 440 based stroker, some 500cids, Indy CNC EZ heads, roller cam, etc.. and you ll end up with a 750Hp engine, then add a 200-250Hp shot of Nitrous and your there... Sadly you need to go aftermarket block, a stock 440 block wont be happy with power like that... Also using Nitrous has its own stuff to deal with, filling bottles, keeping them at right temp/pressure at the track, etc... Well then there is always add a Rootsblower, it will look absolutely amazing and all women will want to be with you.. BUT the Rootsblower engine also has its fair share of issues... So whats left, Turbo or ProCharger... Turbo would be cool, but then if you really want it to run good, you should run the engine with EFI, another money hole... ProCharger is also something to think about. The ProCharger could be run with a blow through carb, kinda simple.. Both will need additional coolers if you plan on running high boost... You could drive the engine on E85, that way you could run more boost than with pumpgas.. There will be allot/some tube bending/fitting in the engine compartment, nothing you really can do in your home garage, if you don't have access to tube bending tools, welder, etc... Also you need to take care that everything fits the engine compartment in a smart way..

So there you go.. start saving money and build your dream car and never have money again, the car will take care of any extra money you may (probably not) have... BUT its FUN

/Tom

[Mefirst]

-Ooh, and Flamdremon* -You do need to start reading/learning about engines, transmissions and well cars in general, your knowledge seems quite lacking, dont take it the wrong way, but just a thought when reading your posts... The more you know the easier it will become...

/Tom

[Flamdremon]

tom..... thats why im here XD

[heyoldguy]

Yep, don't give up. As you said no NOS, I assume you also mean no boost. You can strip and gut the cars interior and keep it street legal, just redo all the wiring to the essentials. Roll cage, transmission and chassis work will be required (I'm not a chassis, tranny man). A factory iron block as a 500" wedge, normally aspirated on E85 ($15,000-$18,000) will get you enough horsepower (done it), but only for awhile as I believe the factory block will eventually fail.

[Lennard]

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,117472.0.html

[Baldwinvette77]

How the hell did i miss this 

[69rtsetracpac]

I remember when running 10's was faster then heck. LOL