offset upper control arm bushings

[Highbanked Hauler]

 does anybody use them or are they  still made ?

[Lennard]

Moog K-7103, available at part stores every where but the cheapest online at Rockauto.com.

[303 Mopar]

Manciniracing.com has the too.  Not sure on the prices.

[Highbanked Hauler]

Thanks guys 

[green69rt]

Thanks guys 

I understand what the bushing does, my question is how do you know how to install it or is there just one way?  I've read that the front arrow goes toward the tire, rear away for increased caster.  So they are installed that way and there's no need to turn the bushing in the socket so the offset is reduced (for example instead of the front arrow pointing exactly toward the tire, have it point upward at 45 Degree angle?)  I think it sounds kind of silly but I want to make sure that the bushing orientation is not used to fine tune the alignment.   All the fine tuning takes place in the cam bolts, right?

[ws23rt]

Thanks guys 

I understand what the bushing does, my question is how do you know how to install it or is there just one way?  I've read that the front arrow goes toward the tire, rear away for increased caster.  So they are installed that way and there's no need to turn the bushing in the socket so the offset is reduced (for example instead of the front arrow pointing exactly toward the tire, have it point upward at 45 Degree angle?)  I think it sounds kind of silly but I want to make sure that the bushing orientation is not used to fine tune the alignment.   All the fine tuning takes place in the cam bolts, right?

I may be all wrong about this but think the original bushings are concentric. (can be installed without attention to orientation).

As to the question about "offset bushings" --- I suspect that those are made to gain more movement than the stock adjusting shaft will give.

If I am right about this then "offset bushings" need to be installed in such a way as to give greater adjustment movement in the direction needed. If one buys Offset bushings vs standard is that not the reason?

BTW--If I had to do a fine adjustment by reorientation of the bushings I would not be happy.

[bill440rt]

I'm having a set of offset bushings installed in a pair of upper control arms right now as well.
Perhaps this diagram may help you, it shows orientation to achieve maximum caster.

[myk]

Positive caster-a thing of the Gods...

[HPP]

The bushings, once installed, cannot easily be manipulated to change their orientation unless you press them out and re-install. So correct orientation at install is critical. Once they are installed, all fine tuning is done with the cams.

It is worth mentioning that these bushings were originally designed to provide additional camber to cars that were damaged or rotten. By installing them the opposite of the factory instructions, you can achieve more caster, which is a bigger influence on the feel of the car. If you call any one at Moog for clarification of this, they will not know what you are talking about because you are using them in a manner they did not design them for.

[green69rt]

The bushings, once installed, cannot easily be manipulated to change their orientation unless you press them out and re-install. So correct orientation at install is critical. Once they are installed, all fine tuning is done with the cams.

It is worth mentioning that these bushings were originally designed to provide additional camber to cars that were damaged or rotten. By installing them the opposite of the factory instructions, you can achieve more caster, which is a bigger influence on the feel of the car. If you call any one at Moog for clarification of this, they will not know what you are talking about because you are using them in a manner they did not design them for.

This answers my questions.  Thanks.

[Brass]

Pedders Suspension used to offer offset UCA bushings in poly but I think they were discontinued because I can't find a listing for them anymore.

[303 Mopar]

I just installed these (triple checked they were correctly installed) and went for an alignment and now have a bad vibration in the wheels at 45-55 mph.  The shop said my tires are out of balance, which is funny because there was no vibration before.  Below are the specs the shop came back with.  Does anyone have the correct measurements or suggestions?

                 LF             RF
Camber      0.3*            0.2*
Caster        1.2*            1.1*
Toe            0.12*          0.13*      Total Toe 0.26*

[HPP]

Are those inches or degrees? .26" of toe is extreme, .26* of toe is not so bad. Any negatives or all positive? 

If you have positive camber, you can sacrifice that for a skosh of negative and possibly gain some caster along the way.

Simplest thing for the alignment guy is to try to hit '05 Mustang specs. They can't do it, but it gives them a target that is most likely in their computer.

[303 Mopar]

Are those inches or degrees? .26" of toe is extreme, .26* of toe is not so bad. Any negatives or all positive? 

If you have positive camber, you can sacrifice that for a skosh of negative and possibly gain some caster along the way.

Simplest thing for the alignment guy is to try to hit '05 Mustang specs. They can't do it, but it gives them a target that is most likely in their computer.

All degrees, I went back and fixed it.  All positives, no negatives.  I gave the shop '05 Stang to go for and this what they came back with.

[HPP]

Okay, thanks.

You caster numbers are really low. I'd think you could get more than that out of the offset bushings but it does occasionally occur where assembly tolerances on some cars are so out of whack that the offsets do not achieve the desired result. I still think they could put more negative camber in place and gain some more caster out of the process. You can put a radial tire at -1* camber and not see unusual wear.

The shake after alignment...could any number of things. They could have knocked a weight off. Could be something under the mounting face of the rims, like a small rock, that prevents it from laying flat on the rotor face. They could have wacked a pothole on the test drive. A belt in the tire could have slipped. It could be the change in alignment angles are putting additional stress on a component and what was marginal before has failed now.

I'd start looking at most basic stuff first. If they offer to rebalance the tires for free, have them do it adn see what the results are. You also could put it up in the air, spin the tire and observe run-out. While up, check for slop in all the joints.

[303 Mopar]

Okay, thanks.

You caster numbers are really low. I'd think you could get more than that out of the offset bushings but it does occasionally occur where assembly tolerances on some cars are so out of whack that the offsets do not achieve the desired result. I still think they could put more negative camber in place and gain some more caster out of the process. You can put a radial tire at -1* camber and not see unusual wear.

The shake after alignment...could any number of things. They could have knocked a weight off. Could be something under the mounting face of the rims, like a small rock, that prevents it from laying flat on the rotor face. They could have wacked a pothole on the test drive. A belt in the tire could have slipped. It could be the change in alignment angles are putting additional stress on a component and what was marginal before has failed now.

I'd start looking at most basic stuff first. If they offer to rebalance the tires for free, have them do it adn see what the results are. You also could put it up in the air, spin the tire and observe run-out. While up, check for slop in all the joints.

All good suggestions - thanks HPP!

[myk]

Agreed on the negative camber. I've been running -1* of camber for a while now with no ill effects...

[303 Mopar]

Agreed on the negative camber. I've been running -1* of camber for a while now with no ill effects...

Thanks.  I have new Weld Prostars and M/T tires arriving in a couple weeks so I will know if it is the tires after I mount those.  I will also go back and have them try to get negative camber.

[HPP]

If the rear of the car is lifted at all, it will also impact the ability to get positive caster. Have you or was the suspension rebuilt recently with poly bushings? A common issue with poly strut bushings is they are thicker than the stock rubber. They will push the entire lower control arm and spindle assy rearward and make it impossible to get good caster readings. They can be shaved down to restore orientation, but that will require some dis-assembly.

[303 Mopar]

If the rear of the car is lifted at all, it will also impact the ability to get positive caster. Have you or was the suspension rebuilt recently with poly bushings? A common issue with poly strut bushings is they are thicker than the stock rubber. They will push the entire lower control arm and spindle assy rearward and make it impossible to get good caster readings. They can be shaved down to restore orientation, but that will require some dis-assembly.

I only replaced the UCA bushing, swapped new t-bars for 1.03", and a thicker front sway bar.  Nothing to effect the alignment.  I would have thought I could get more caster and negative camber.

[myk]

Agreed on the negative camber. I've been running -1* of camber for a while now with no ill effects...

Thanks.  I have new Weld Prostars and M/T tires arriving in a couple weeks so I will know if it is the tires after I mount those.  I will also go back and have them try to get negative camber.

Well I'm OK with it now.  Originally I thought that -.5* would've been better. Part of me still thinks the -1*  of camber might be a tad too aggressive for mostly street driving.  I dunno.  I'm like a chick trying to pick out the right shoes...