to Roll-Cage or NOT to Roll-Cage...

[charlie45]

I am debating whether to put a smaller roll-cage in the car. If I want to do it, I have to decide whether to do it now, before the car goes in for paint...

Ron has a really nice looking set-up, and if I were to do anything it would be in that direction. This topic has probably been beaten like a dead horse, but I would like to get some final feedback because it is pretty big change and decision on the car!

I like the look of a roll-cage, I am just worried that I will regret it after a few months because it definitely makes the car less practical (i.e. getting in/out, rear passenger access is limited, etc.). Plus, I don't really have a big intent on racing the car, I will maybe do some classic car rallies but that's about it... It will be more of a street cruiser, it"s getting a Ray Barton 528 btw... So maybe I am answering my own question to some extent, but would love to hear your thoughts nonetheless. Because it does make look quite a bit cooler with the roll-cage setup, but maybe it is a little far-fetched especially if I don't have much of a track intent with the vehicle... What do you guys say/think???

PS: In terms of rigidity I don't know how much a roll-cage will help, but I already have the Hotchkis TVS system with the sub-frame connectors....

[twodko]

No roll bar!

[68X426]

You only live once, so install the roll cage and put it to the test. 

[Mike DC]

  
It sounds like you basically want a perimeter rollcage lining the roof / pillars / jambs, but without the internal bars stretching across the interior/openings.  


Stiffening gains probably won't be nearly as much as a real track rollcage.  Bridging the openings is the biggest benefit with a traditional cage.  The raw additional steel in the cage bars will make the structure resist bending in a wreck more, but that does not actually improve the stiffness before it gets flexed far enough to start bending.  Stiffness and toughness are two different things.  



This cage would be better than not having it in a wreck - IF - you don't kill yourself banging your head on unpadded tubing.  You would need to get the roof bars tucked way up against the roof structure and pad it well.  (The biggest risk, aside from the main hoop, is the horizontal roof bar above the driver side window glass.)  

For padding, think whacking a baseball bat against the tube.  If the padding even feels like padding then it's too soft.  They are making better padding these days in racing catalogs but you do need to get the better stuff.  Don't just use the normal rollbar padding that people have been using for decades.  

[myk]

If you're just doing it for looks then you don't NEED it, but you seem to like the idea of the look.  In that case I say go for it.  This isn't your daily driver so some inconveniences like a roll cage are acceptable, IMO...

[HPP]

If you aren't racing it, don't bother.  NHRA doesn't require cages until you are moving pretty darn quick, and even then there are exceptions based on stock firewall and floor pan conditions.

IMO, the big problem with a cage in a street car is that they intrude into the interior space quite a bit. If you use 1.75" tube, you aren't just encroaching 1.75" but also the spacing you have behind it to allow a full weld, plus spacing you allow for headliners and panels, so its entirely possible to reduce the space in the interior by 4-6" near where your head is. This 4-6" can be critical space that prevents your melon from smacking it in the event of a crash that you would otherwise have in an unmodified interior. In a car with only a lap belt, having space to allow body movement could be a life saver.

A full cage done properly does increase chassis rigidity quite a bit. However, there are plenty of parts and kits out there now days that can really increase rigidity without going the full cage route. This would be more than just sub frame connectors and would include additional cowl and frame supports as well.

[70 sublime]

If you are driving it like a regular car will your insurance company like the look of a race car roll cage set up and want to charge you lots more $$$$ ?

[68pplcharger]

I would put the roll-cage and removable side bars (They are legal in NHRA), easy access that way. The only problem is rear seat access... I've flipped one on the road just playing before, so I'm about safety with big horsepower (was only doing 30mph by the way). Sometimes the road conditions can be unexpected even for the best drivers. I had driven race cars for about 18 years at that point with no issues, then wham! slid sideways into a ditch rolling it one time. Luckily the car had a roll-cage, because it landed on the roof just above my head. Cage saved my life...  

[charlie45]

Okay guys, thanks for the feedback so far.

I am starting to think that it is just probably not a very wise idea with the roll-cage, particularly since I really do not need it at this point.  Look, I am not intending to race the charger at all on the track, for that I have a GT3RS...

I just really like the look of a roll-cage, but it will probably get on my nerves after a few months when I experience the inconveniences of it... Also, if I were to put a roll-cage than I sort of feel that I have to go for the more all out race-car mods/resto (weight reduction, manual steering with short ratio, minimal interior, etc., etc.) The car is going in for paint soon so I have to make a decision soon. On top of that I also have purchased all the interior parts and just paid a lot of money to have the whole instrument cluster re-done, the vinyl parts restored by JustDashes, etc... It would kind of be a waste, not to mention a pity, to end up cutting those parts out to allow the roll-bars to fit right. I discussed it with my mechanic earlier who will be completing the resto, and he also clearly warned against putting in a roll cage saying that it could be a real pain in the ass trying to get interiors parts in right depending on how the cage was installed... Meaning it will make the interior install much more cumbersome possibly impossible...

All in all the rationale side of me says don't do it... But after all how rationale can one be when one is putting a 528 Hemi in a car...right?

I don't know... Still have to think about it some more...

[charlie45]

I just found something actually seems really interesting. The company RideTech makes a roll-cage called a TigerCage that can be installed fairly easily and doesn't require any welding... Can also be installed once the car is complete since it is a bolt-on application.. They don't have them available for Mopars yet, but based on the product video they are planning to offer them for Mopars soon... Could be an interesting option, they seem to be well designed in that they don't really prohibit entry and have a removable rear bar to that make the back seats useable when required...

http://www.ridetech.com/store/tigercage/

[firefighter3931]

Charlie....how much power is the 528 going to make ?

Once you start making big power the unibody will start twisting and eventually sheet metal will tear/rip. Usually it starts in the door jambs and cowl area under the hood. 

I certainly don't regret adding the 8pt roll bar in mine....made a huge difference in the stiffening of the chassis. If it's designed right there is minimal inconvenience to the driver and passengers. 



Ron

[mopar0166]

any pics>

[firefighter3931]

any pics>

Why sure ! 

Here are a few when I was mocking up the seats and installing the interior in the car 


Ron

[Brock Lee]

If you are driving it like a regular car will your insurance company like the look of a race car roll cage set up and want to charge you lots more $$$$ ?

Good point. I had an issue with Hagerty and a Charger that had a full cage. They suspected the full cage meant it was being raced and didn't want to insure it. I managed to convince them it was cosmetic and the car was never going to be raced. It was a difficult sell though. I think most people assume insurance companies see it as added safety, but the fact is they question the reasons for needing the added safety.

[mopar0166]

nice work!!!

[charlie45]

Ron, your setup looks amazing... And it appears that installing the interior really wasn't much of a challenge in your case...?

[firefighter3931]

Ron, your setup looks amazing... And it appears that installing the interior really wasn't much of a challenge in your case...?

Thanks Charlie, appreciate the kind words. 

The Rollbar is an 8pt kit from S&W racecars. The rear bars are their "pro-street" option ; basicly contoured along the roofline and down near the "C Pillar" for a clean look. The front door bars were custom bent by my chassis guy to retain the stock arm rests and make getting into and out of the car easy.

The interior went in fine but was a bit of work due to the rollbar installation. The car also has boxed lower control arms and welded in subframe connectors. The front bars are bolted to the front subframes. Rear bars are also bolted to (rear) subframes. The 45* down bars coming off the main hoop just below the crossbar go through the floorpan and are welded to the subframe connectors.

It's all about triangulation and chassis stiffness when you're trying to get big power to the ground and keep the chassis from twisting up. The car drives pretty nice even with the new 572 Stroker under the hood. 

Here's an older thread with some addition pics of mine while it was in the build stage. There is another car in the thread with a custom built cage that is different from mine. The end result was the same....just a different way of getting there. 

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,1940.0.html




Ron

[firefighter3931]

nice work!!!

Thanks ! 

[Mefirst]

I have a full CM 8.50 cage (well technically only 9.99 because missing the D bars) in my Charger. Do NOT make the misstake I did and make the side bars nonremovable, climbing over the side bar is kinda cool the 1st time, but after that it just sucks Cross brace is bolted, so you can access the rear seat, though you'd have to be a yoga gymnast to get in there...

I have "race" front seats in mine, even though I'm some 6,2, I sit really low, so if I don't flip the car over, I will probably not hit my head in the roof bar. I have padding on the bars. Where there is a chance Ill hit my head, in those spots I have SFI type padding.







Adding the cage really stiffend up the car, car also has the frame connectors..
/Tom

[charlie45]

Thank you guys for all the useful Feedback. 

I think I am going to hold off at the moment on the roll-cage. It just doesn't make sense for my needs, especially since I am not going to race the car... The inconveniences and extra work just outweigh the benefit (which is pretty much just aesthetics in my case..)

If the TigerCage becomes available than that might be an option for me down the road...

Any other chassis stiffening measures that you guys recommend besides the sub-Frame connectors would be appreciated?

[Mefirst]

Any other chassis stiffening measures that you guys recommend besides the sub-Frame connectors would be appreciated?

This... http://www.manciniracing.com/uscartotochs.html

/Tom

[marshallfry01]

That's a nice roll cage! I like how it doesn't stand out like a lot of them do. 

[kanadanmajava]

I'm pretty sure that I'm going to have a cage in my '69. I rolled my last daily driver in an accident in the last August and I promised myself to have a cage + good seats + harness' in my next big project.

Its going to be a six point cage but I'm not yet sure what kind of reinforcements it will have. But it should help to make the body a bit stiffer and have some removable parts so that it would be more passenger friendly when needed.

I want the front tubes to follow the A pillars very closely, pass through the dashboard's corners and continue to the floor. I was thinking about splitting the dashboard in half so that the upper part where the padding is mounted would (mostly) go in front of the tubes and the lower part could still be removed.

In the right corner this idea is pretty easy to do but in left side the gauge cluster is in the way. Mine's far from perfect and the gauges haven't shown anything in 20 years but I'm still a bit reluctant to go sawing the left corner off. Maybe I'll replace the gauge structure with something completely different that has working gauges.

I could also place one horizontal tube behind the dashboard. Maybe also some lateral tubes to connect the cage to the front frame rails or to the shock towers. I'm trying to follow our local rule book to keep it race legal in one certain class (just in case...)

I should first take some measurements and make sketch.

[Mefirst]

Kanadamajava*

The only removable parts in a 8.50 cert. cage is the door bars and the crossbrace. Also you do not need the horizontal tube (under the dash) or the tubes all the way to the front of the car to get a 8.50 cert.. I did not want to hack up the dash, that's why the tubes come down in front of the dash. I did have to mod the right side of glovebox lid so I could open/close it, but the lid can be bought new, the dash not so much..

IF you car is not a true race car I would personally not bother with the under the dash horizontal tube or the front frame tubes. I don't have them on my car and in my mind my car is stiff enough, a little flex is good thing... Then again it all depends what your goal is with your ride...

/Tom

[kanadanmajava]

It's not a drag racing class but a circuit racing class where you still could keep the car in street legal condition. Most aren't but there are still some street cars racing. The beige Buick used to arrive to races while carrying racing tires on a roof rack. The Duster is also a street car but it usually travels on a trailer.



The race rules follow FIA regulations so removable door bars and diagonal braces are allowed. I'm pretty sure that there's enough room to keep the glove box lid intact and operational with my plan. The glove box is actually missing but I do have a good looking lid...

Currently I don't have money to participate in racing but I was still thinking about building the cage so that it would be race legal. My dashboard isn't pretty either so I wont loose any sleep if I modify it. It has more broken pieces than pieces intact.

Does your car still have some headliner? The last picture isn't very clear but it seems that it doesn't have any left. Is it impossible to put one there?

[Mefirst]

You are correct, you can fit the front down bars so the glovebox can be opened, sadly the guy who made/welded my cage kinda messed that up..

My car does not have a headliner. I pulled it out before having the cage made, reason was no 1, fire hazzard when welding (cage is made to fit tight against the roof) and 2. it looked kinda disgusting.. found a mouse nest and about 1ton of mouse feces on top of the headliner, I have no clue what happened to the mouse though...

Gonna add a new headliner in the car someday... other than the headliner the interior is original, well did have to loose the front door inner door handles because the handles did not fit with the sidebar...

/Tom

[GOTWING]

Yeah if you're not racing it it's just extra dead weight to haul around and slow your car down, if you go to the track 11:50 or faster you will need it.

[kanadanmajava]

My car does not have a headliner. I pulled it out before having the cage made, reason was no 1, fire hazzard when welding (cage is made to fit tight against the roof) and 2. it looked kinda disgusting.. found a mouse nest and about 1ton of mouse feces on top of the headliner, I have no clue what happened to the mouse though...

Gonna add a new headliner in the car someday... other than the headliner the interior is original, well did have to loose the front door inner door handles because the handles did not fit with the sidebar...

/Tom

My headliner has gone missing (one support bow is all that remains) but I did find mouse nests from the ventilation system. Putting the headliner back might be pretty hard if the cage has been tightly fitted. I guess I'll try to get the inside of my roof to look nice first then decided if it needs to be covered. It has so much surface rust that earlier mouse nest might have something to do with it...

[moparguy01]

Kanadamajava*

The only removable parts in a 8.50 cert. cage is the door bars and the crossbrace. Also you do not need the horizontal tube (under the dash) or the tubes all the way to the front of the car to get a 8.50 cert.. I did not want to hack up the dash, that's why the tubes come down in front of the dash. I did have to mod the right side of glovebox lid so I could open/close it, but the lid can be bought new, the dash not so much..

IF you car is not a true race car I would personally not bother with the under the dash horizontal tube or the front frame tubes. I don't have them on my car and in my mind my car is stiff enough, a little flex is good thing... Then again it all depends what your goal is with your ride...

/Tom

Which crossbrace are you saying is removable? My 74 has a 8.50 certified cage as well. However it is definitely overbuilt. Both door bars are removable. Front bars go through the dash. Which is a bitch. I did a nice vinyl wrapped dash, but no adhesive would hold it where the bends to go around the bars are. Now I'm installing a hard plastic cap. I believe you do need to dash bar, IF you have smaller diameter tubing up front. I have one. I also have will bars installed, and a second hoop surrounding the rear seat going up and around the package tray. I made a thread about it awhile ago but I'm on my phone so I can't link to it. I also made a brace across the front rails, right by the radiator support with a small loop on it. I can hook my trailers winch right on the loop and drag it up the trailer real nice. I have subframe connectors as well. The inspector said if I put in the funny car cage he would certify it would 7.50.

[Mefirst]

The main hoop cross/horizontal bar, that bar can be bolted according to the rules. You also do NOT need the cross/horizontal bar, that typically goes under the dash, connected to the front down bars, neither the bars going to the front end of the car for a 8.50 cert cage.

The tubes in my ride are Chrome Molly. Main hoop, front down bars, horizontal front roof bar and door bars are 1 5/8". Rear going tubes from main hoop are 1 1/2". Horizontal main hoop bar 1 1/4", in my car I think/remember it is the same diameter as the main hoop, 1 5/8".

/Tom

[moparguy01]

According to the inspector here, the main hoop crossbar cannot be removable and have it pass inspection. The rulebook I read said the same thing. The door bars can be removable, but no other bars. Also, they frown on any bend more than 30 degrees in door bars that have bends. My car does not have bars from the a pillars to the front frame rails as they are not required.

Did your cage pass certification and get your sticker? I'm very curious with the horizontal being a bolt in.

[Mefirst]

There is nothing in the rulebook we use over here in Europe that states specifically that the main hoop horizontal support bar must be welded to the main hoop. It just states this bar is where one mounts the safety belt/s and driver seat, that the bar must have a minimum diameter of 1 1/4" and that the bar cannot be mounted any lower than 4 inches under the drivers shoulder height.

Ill take a pic of the main hoop horizontal bar in my car so you can see what it looks like.

I have NOT certed my cage, reason is the cage lacks the D-bars and I'm not planing on driving faster than 10.000 (9.99), or 10.10, that's the BOT in the class I race in... If the need for speed changes, then Ill have the D-bars welded in and have the cage 8.50 certified, or do it before 2017, there are some rule changes coming that year, but cars certified before that will (probably) not be affected.

/Tom

[TexasStroker]

If you aren't going to need it to run at the track, I wouldn't bother with it.  However, if you like the look and think that you will wind up pushing the car more than you are thinking at the moment it would be wise to make it happen now.