Settling in with Hotchkis...

[cdr]

they have shims that are for getting the rear end in line,,they go in the front spring hanger.

[Charger-Bodie]

they have shims that are for getting the rear end in line,,they go in the front spring hanger.

[1974dodgecharger]

Lmao, too me it was night and day over stock......but just my opinion

[myk]

I think if I had done what the magazine did and performed a timed, road course baseline with the stock suspension, then installed the entire TVS and then re-evaluated the car in the same day I would've experienced more of a change in the car's suspension.  However, since I installed different pieces at various times the transformation wasn't as obvious, abrupt. 

I will say this though: for those on a budget and/or are unwilling to do as deep of an installation as the TVS requires, you could get away with just SFC's, shocks and sways.  That was my first step and it made quite an impact on the car, IMO...

[HPP]

camber: -1.0
caster: +6.1
toe: 0

Nice! I figured you could get it there.

Now as to my personal impressions?  First of all, San Diego roads SUCK.  

Secondly, I really hate to be a stick in the mud, but I'm not feeling a VAST, "OMG" improvement over what I had previously, which was a recently (less than 5K miles) rebuilt stock front end with the Hotchkis sway bars (front and rear), MP frame connectors and the Hotchkis/Fox shocks.  In my own opinion the car with just those 'mods was very flat, stable, easy to control and very responsive, which made it a blast to drive on the level of my lightly 'modded '98 Mustang.  

Actually, I'm not surprised considering where you started. With the list above, you were actually at a point that many others finish atso you were pursiing incremental gains.

So here are my additional questions:

-is the performance benefit and feel of the UCA's, strut rods, tie rods, torsion bars and rear leaf springs, something that don't make as much of an impact as the pieces I already had on the car?  

Unfortunately,no, they are not big impact items, especially for a casual drive home.  The UCA give the extra caster and alter the rebound angle. The extra caster does improve return to center and effort, but not a huge amount. Strut rods maintain toe settings under hard bracking, tie rods may reduce some very, very minor deflection during high load cornering, The t-bars and leafs, you stepped the rates up but the shocks really smoothed them out. These gains will be noticed when pushed much harder and with the rest of the Hotchkis kit, will produce a very neutral feel that you may not have had at the limit previously.

-Are the benefits of the newest parts that I've installed something that I won't feel until I'm TRULY pushing the car beyond typical driving?  I guess it didn't help that I drove the car home through rush-hour traffic and couldn't really play with it, and I didn't get to flog the car like the shop did, as they obviously noticed a huge difference in the car. I will say this:  I didn't feel ANY bumpsteer at all which was surprising, although again I have to say it wasn't THAT bad before the 'mods.  

As above, these mods are incremental  changes that are best  noticed at the thresholds of traction.

-did I handicap my modifications by not installing the Firm Feel Stage 3 steering box along with everything else?

No, not really. Steering boxes don't do much for improved handling, do do a bunch for improved feel.

Another issue: I was so focused on the front end that I didn't even bother to read the print-out regarding my rear end alignment.  The rear reads as follows:

camber: -.3*
toe: -.6
thrust: +.2

I thought rear ends were exempt from any sort of alignment measuring asides from thrust angle?  It's not as if I can adjust the rear end, right?  Will I have to get Hotchkis' thrust angle kit to correct my car?  And this -1 front camber?  I dunno about that one-I'm starting to think it's too radical for me, even though I thought I wanted this car set up for uber-handling above all else.  

You can  change the rear setting, but they require removal and dis assembly of the rear and puttig the housng in a  jig to bend it into spec.  Although when I was oval track racing, we would purposly bend a housing to add negative camber. It did chew up axles ends much  faster as well as accellerate the wear in the carrier, but we rebuilt everything every few months anyway. FIx the thrust then  forget about it.

For now I will say thanks to all of you for contributing and helping me through this process.  The successes that my car and I are enjoying are because of everyone here.  Additional thoughts and comments are welcome, and I'll try to crawl under the car and get some pictures for you, '74 lol...

Glad it all help.

[bill440rt]

 

That IS good they got the alignment worked out.
My alignment shop also noticed my rear was slightly out, the thrust angle was only -.01* though. The rear tires are toed in very, very slightly, not much to really worry about so they told me (-.18* each).

Like you, I've done mine in increments also. I also spoke with Hotchkis tech support about which components gave the most bang for the buck. As you've noticed, it was sway bars & shocks. That was their answer as well.
The only other Hotchkis parts I've added were their UCA's & torsion bars, to help with front end handling/steering. I already have beefier (aluminum) tie rod sleeves (C-body) & strut rods, so I felt there was no need to change. Although the rear has come down a bit, I am still happy with the ride height with the MP leaves out back. Maybe someday if I can get a decent deal on a set of Hotchkis leafs I might swap those out, but for now I'm happy with them.

The FF or Steer-n-Gear Stage 2 or 3 boxes will not help with a faster steering ratio or radius. It will only provide a firmer feel over stock. For a faster ratio you'll have to either swap to a different pitman arm or perhaps a Borgeson box.
FWIW I'm very happy with the SnG Stage 2 box. Pretty sure they are closer to you as well, which may help you out reducing shipping charges. 

[fy469rtse]

Ok no fair Myk, photos , lots and lots 

[myk]

I'm supposed to take the car back after a couple of hundred miles or so.  The shop wants to look everything over to make sure nothing's amiss.  When they get it on the lift I'll try to snap some pictures.  Apparently, and this is what  Hotchkis tells me as well, the UCA's have the tendency to shift or move if they aren't torqued down past the point where most people would think it was tight enough.  This was one of the problems my shop had wth the car: they'd align it, drive it, only to find out the UCA's shifted slightly.

Question: is +.2 on the thrust angle something worth adjusting or not?  If so, would I have to realign the front again?

[dodgey68]

wow what a read,, I have  inner tyer wear and  slight bump steer, oh and I had death wobble once,,,


I have 18x8 fronts with 255 wide tire, just suspension uca, fatman fabrication drop stubs, and a rack and pinion setup,,
any help,, 

[myk]

Are you saying you have inner tire wear and bump steer?

After all of this I've learned that inner tire wear has to be a camber issue.  The bump steer is inherent to stock Charger suspensions and a lack of caster, although with your setup, with the fatman drop pieces and the rack and pinion, I can't say what's wrong.  Again, based on my limited experience I'd have your caster and camber settings looked at; someone correct me if I'm wrong...

[garner7555]

I agree with MYK.    I have also heard that the rack and pinion setups are notorious for bump steer issues.  I have no experience with rack and pinion on these cars, but I have read about enough bump steer problems that I stayed with the old gear box.   

[myk]

I agree with MYK.    I have also heard that the rack and pinion setups are notorious for bump steer issues.  I have no experience with rack and pinion on these cars, but I have read about enough bump steer problems that I stayed with the old gear box.   

Wow, seriously?  Then what's the advantage of making the relatively difficult switch to rack and pinion if it just causes awful bump steer anyway? 

[HPP]

Bump steer is inherent in the mopar design because the torsion bar is inline with the lower control arm pivot, therefore the inner tie rod cannot occupy the same space to have an equal pivot length as the control arm. However, there is a range you can move the tie rods through to minimize bump deflection.

Knowing the above and looking at a typical R&P install, you may notice that the end links and pivot points of the tie rods on the R&P are in significantly different locations than stock and the rack its self has to be mounted so low to avoid oil pan interference that a bolt on R&P conversion is an invitation to increased bump steer along with reduced turning radius.

Fatman spindles are based on the taller FJM design. They have increase axis inclination over the stock Charger units and were designed with radial tires in mind, so they cannot be used with stock alignment specs but rather should be adjusted to a more radial friendly specification. They also have slightly different bump measurements at the extreme ends of suspension travel compared to the stock drum brake spindle.

If the inner edge of your tires is wearing excessive, myk is right that you should reduce your camber spec some and probably measure you toe degrees as well. However, because of the Fatman spindle and the R&P conversion, there is no simple fix for the bump steer. It may be able to be corrected if you put it through a bump measurement and tried to shim the rack and/or end links to improve the curve, but it will never be perfect. Explaining measurements and correction of bump steer is pretty complex. Search bump steer in you tube and you can find dozens of videos on how to measure and how to address it. Similarly, the Mopar Chassis manuals also addresses methods of correction. 

[twenty mike mike]

How about a side view of the new ride height with the new Hotchkis leaf springs? Pretty please?

[flyinlow]

Hey MYK,

What tires are you running?

[myk]

How about a side view of the new ride height with the new Hotchkis leaf springs? Pretty please?

I'll take some pictures and post them ASAP.  Keep in mind that everyone's telling me that the ride height will settle down to their true ride height with more miles driven.

Hey MYK,

What tires are you running?

255 x 45 x 18

So I'm evaluating the zero toe setting on the car; not sure if that's right for me or not, although the car seems stable as it is.  More driving is in order!

[twenty mike mike]

How about a side view of the new ride height with the new Hotchkis leaf springs? Pretty please?

I'll take some pictures and post them ASAP.  Keep in mind that everyone's telling me that the ride height will settle down to their true ride height with more miles driven.

So I'm evaluating the zero toe setting on the car; not sure if that's right for me or not, although the car seems stable as it is.  More driving is in order!

Looking forward to the pics. If the springs settle later, the recently installed height and the settled height will be data points.

I'm surprised zero toe is working for you, since that would normally cause wandering.

[myk]

That's just it-I'm getting the slight feeling that the car is occasionally unstable.  The car tracks straight, but....I didn't get the twitchy feeling before the zero-toe setting. I'm thinking about changing it but I REALLY don't want to go back to the shop with it...

[flyinlow]

So lengthen each tie rod a 1/2 turn and drive it.  Add a little toe in.   

[fy469rtse]

Myk, still no photos 
The bump steer with racks comes from them not being able to position them correctly , this is for rear mounted ones , sump gets in the way of not being able to mount them high enough to eliminate the bump steer

[myk]

Myk, still no photos  
The bump steer with racks comes from them not being able to position them correctly , this is for rear mounted ones , sump gets in the way of not being able to mount them high enough to eliminate the bump steer

Lol, I know, I know.  I'm finishing up a 60 hour work week.  Hell I didn't even get to go to Cruisin Grand yesterday!    I'll get those shots up as soon as I can.  

So lengthen each tie rod a 1/2 turn and drive it.  Add a little toe in.  

Just like that?  I want to see the results on a printout, from an alignment rack.  I do not have the qualifications or the confidence to just "eyeball" this thing..

[HPP]

Then break out the tape and measure. Setting toe is as easy as described, but you want to have a good centerline to measure that 16th against. Or, to  make it equal, a 32nd per side. That may only be a quarter turn on each  tie rod sleeve.

[myk]

Then break out the tape and measure. Setting toe is as easy as described, but you want to have a good centerline to measure that 16th against. Or, to  make it equal, a 32nd per side. That may only be a quarter turn on each  tie rod sleeve.

Wow, it's that precise of a measurement?  Thanks for the suggestion.  Now pardon my ignorance here, but all I do with the Hotchkis rods is loosen both jam nuts, then turn or rotate the rod outward to induce toe in?  Thanks again guys...

[garner7555]

https://www.google.com/search?q=wheel+alignment+toe+settings&espv=2&biw=1600&bih=775&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=l-A0VdSFNImjNqicgNgF&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAw#imgrc=_

Glance at some of these diagrams.  Alignment isn't as complicated as the shop might have you to believe, they just have really good equipment to measure it.   

Yes, since the steering linkage is in the rear of the tire on the charger then you would loosen the jamb nuts, then turn the adjusters to lengthen the linkage to give tow in (you would turn them to shorten linkage to give tow out).   
My guess would be a quarter of a turn per side would be sufficient but I would verify by measuring.

[flyinlow]

Just like that?  I want to see the results on a printout, from an alignment rack.  I do not have the qualifications or the confidence to just "eyeball" this thing..
[/quote]



I'm not trying to be a smart ass.  If you mark where you are now on the tie rods and the lengthen them 1/4-1/2 each  ,increasing toe in, and then test drive to see if it helps with the twitchy feel. Easy to return to where it was if it does not help. This is assuming the steering is still behind the front axle like stock?

I have set a rough toe in  with over hauled front ends with tape on the tires ,rolling the car back and forth to get it in the ball park to drive to the alignment shop. You can get pretty close.  Still would have it aligned.