70 Charger hood clearance for CH4B? It runs

[b5blue]

  Swapping out to a CH4B intake with a Proform 750 Street Series vacuum secondary carb using a factory dual snorkel air cleaner. I'd like to add an insulator under the carb but the stacked height looks kinda high sitting on the shelf?
 Has anyone run something similar with any issues?    

[Nickrc3]

Neal, I've got your planned setup on my 69' w/ unsilenced air cleaner and hood pad. No clearance issues with a 1/2" phenolic insulator.
I can't imagine the 70' hood sitting closer to the engine than the 68-69 series, however, that snorkel-style air cleaner doesn't appear to drop down that much.
Without pulling the stock intake off, temporarily fit the new carb w/ aircleaner and test with some 1" thick foam resting of the air cleaner lid (I applied baby powder to the top of the foam, so to leave a visual impression on the hood web upon closing.
I don't believe the height of the CH6B exceeds stock by more than 1/2".

[b5blue]

Thanks! 

[BSB67]

Measure the clearance that you have now.

The CH4B is 0.4" taller than the factory cast iron intake.  I'm pretty sure the carb heights are the same.  I think you can get a phenolic spacer that is 0.25"

[b5blue]

I used 1/2" foam on top of the setup while "mocked up" on the car and closed the hood. No dents in the foam so I've ordered a 1/2" spacer and will try the test again. 

[john108]

Does anyone know the A(front) and B(rear) height dimensions for a 440 4-barrel stock Intake Manifold?

[BSB67]

3.4"- 4.2"

[b5blue]

When my 1/2 spacer gets in I'll mock up and check everything, take pics and get measurements. It may help others. 

[john108]

Thank you BSB67.
I am also concerned with hood clearance with a 1 inch spacer. 
I see that members have performer RPM intakes with 1/2 spacers and it fits.
I have a holley SD, 1 inch spacer, with a 1.25 drop air cleaner.
I am just collecting data to see if I have to replace the spacer with a 1/2 in.

[BSB67]

Thank you BSB67.
I am also concerned with hood clearance with a 1 inch spacer. 
I see that members have performer RPM intakes with 1/2 spacers and it fits.
I have a holley SD, 1 inch spacer, with a 1.25 drop air cleaner.
I am just collecting data to see if I have to replace the spacer with a 1/2 in.

My manifold is as tall as the RPM and have a spacer that is about a 1/2" as well.  It took some work to get it all to fit, so, it is not necessarily easy in my book.  I did get it to work with the stock air cleaner too.   No matter what air cleaner you buy, at some point the carb is just too close to the hood to make it work.  Depending on the lid style, you could restrict flow into the carb.  K&N has air filter elements in 1/4" height increments that can help to get it exactly where you want it.

[b5blue]

Ch4B with 1/2 spacer:
Front
Rear
Linkages: Throttle cable too low and short? Kick down rod off 6BBL okay.

[b5blue]

Side view across fenders with factory type dual snorkel on Proform 750 mounted to CH4B with 1/2" spacer.
Hood up:
Hood down:

[b5blue]

Next I'll build up some putty ridges and slam the hood shut to get a detailed imprint of clearances. Then I've got to sort out throttle cable being short and low. (Help?) 

[b5blue]

To keep things moving along I found Rick E. has correct bracket stuff on eBay. Ordered with fastest shipping get things buttoned up. 

[b5blue]

Rick said use the Lokar cable kickdown. One Lokar KD 2727HT ordered from JEGS. Crap, I'm racking up extra "expedited" shipping big time!  Looks like aluminum heads are gonna have to wait. 
Brackets about 109.00 with extra shipping.
Lokar about 120.00 with extra shipping. 

[BSB67]

Rick said use the Lokar cable kickdown. One Lokar KD 2727HT ordered from JEGS. Crap, I'm racking up extra "expedited" shipping big time!  Looks like aluminum heads are gonna have to wait. 
Brackets about 109.00 with extra shipping.
Lokar about 120.00 with extra shipping. 

FWIW, I have never purchased any kick down stuff.  I've always been able to make the factory linkage work.  Sometimes you can get the bracket to work as well.

[BSB67]

I think the AR Engineering bracket w/ kick down attachment will work, and it is only $36. and you can keep your linkage 

[b5blue]

  Thanks for the reply, I'll see what comes from Rick. He is a vendor for AR Eng. so it may be the one you mention:
http://arengineering.com/products/440-with-kickdown-pivot
  Rick pointed out for a stock 727, CH4B w 1/2" spacer the geometry for the linkage would be off. After rerouting cooler lines and having the 727 rebuilt to stock spec as part of installing the Winter's Sidewinder shifter I've grown to expect the worse for any modification.
  Right now I have next week to finish, get the car up and running to get alignment set from disk swap and adding staggered offset UCA bushings with adjustable strut rods.

[BSB67]

   He is a vendor for AR Eng. so it may be the one you mention:
http://arengineering.com/products/440-with-kickdown-pivot
  Rick pointed out for a stock 727, CH4B w 1/2" spacer the geometry for the linkage would be off. After rerouting cooler lines and having the 727 rebuilt to stock spec as part of installing the Winter's Sidewinder shifter I've grown to expect the worse for any modification.

Looks like the bracket.  Why is it $109?

Couple of bell cranks and rods.  Not hard to get right.  There was a time when none of this stuff was available and you just used a little ingenuity to figure it out.  Now if you can't buy it from Summit, I guess it can't be done.  That Bracket will allow the factory linkage to work properly.

[b5blue]

  Thanks again, 109 covered 2 day shipping for a complete 69.00 kit not just a bracket.  I've got zero time to fart with fabrication just to save a few bucks after all the overhauling done in the last year. The car has given me 20 years of faithful service and owes me nothing. Trust me if this crap gives me any worries I'll be ordering that bracket on your trusted opinion and pay extra shipping on it to be here fast. 
  I started this topic trying to find out what was needed, now it will cover details for anyone later who searches CH4B like I did before starting this. I still wonder if the throttle cable is going to be long enough, not certain exactly what kickdown I have or how this Lokar cable integrates with the carb? The Charger was a drag raced car trailer-ed to the strip for years when I bought it. Back then I had many friends with rooms full of extra parts and advise/guidance. We cobbled together what it took to put the car back on the road and I continued cobbling and patching as needed up until last year. Now it's time to set things up and sort out the last few things so I can just enjoy driving. (Again)     

[moparsr2fast]

  That Lokar kit will solve both the kickdown and throttle cable travel issues Neal. Very well engineered product. 

[myk]

 
  I started this topic trying to find out what was needed, now it will cover details for anyone later who searches CH4B like I did before starting this.    

And I thank you for that.  I just got a CH4B myself and will install it soon.  BTW what spacers are everyone using?

[b5blue]

I got a cheapo spacer off ebay for fitment/setup, later I'll get a Jomar they look best? 

[myk]

I got a cheapo spacer off ebay for fitment/setup, later I'll get a Jomar they look best? 

I just bought a 1/2" phenolic from....*ahem* Summit.  I've ignored the boiling fuel issue long enough.  Although I have to wonder: did these cars have fuel boiling issues and need spacers when they were new?

[b5blue]

No gas had lead and no ethanol back then. 

[myk]

Yes, I see what you mean-I'm reading about that now...

[ACUDANUT]

I have never had to use a spacer 

[Nickrc3]

...Neal, don't forget the coil relocation bracket, unless you prefer to mount the coil on the inner fender.



Regarding the carb spacer, I used the Edelbrock 1/2" wood type - http://www.jegs.com/i/Edelbrock/350/8723/10002/-1?parentProductId=743637#moreDetails

Also, finally solved the constant heat soaking issues, by simply switching to 'Rec' fuel. No more excessive engine cranking and stubborn start-ups.

[b5blue]

  Thanks for the pic Nick, are you using the AR Engineering bracket?  I switched to ethanol free premo myself but want to be able to use it if needed. My coil is a small square one that came with the Firecore RTR dizzy, it will be easy to mount. 
  I'm going through all this to add A/C otherwise I'd never parted with the 6BBL. (The car is being setup for daily use and road trips.)

[b5blue]

  Searching and Google-ing CH4B throttle cable, thanks to Nick's picture, I'm seeing numerous comments my standard 4BBL throttle bracket "should" just still work. (I may have a cable issue, not bracket.) Again I don't know what I do have now, just that it worked with the 6BBL?    (My car was originally 318 2BBL, converted to 383 4BBL, 440 4BBL then had a TM-7 high rise added and when I bought it I installed a 6BBL... )
  These are some of the very last unknown details of my car left to sort out.  (SOOO CLOSE.)

[Nickrc3]

... the coil relocation bracket (and fuel lines) were purchased from Fabulous Fabrications #303 - 666-9882.

I didn't need to modify the existing accelerator pedal cable - she's stock. One interesting point, I recently removed the accelerator cable from my second Charger (a 68'), which also had a six-pak induction system. The cable appeared identical to the 440-equipped 69' and measured 19.5" in length, therefore, I'm wondering why you are having difficulties with the length? Is the intake manifold throttle bracket of a different design or offset?

[b5blue]

  I don't know just what cable I've got? (Just that it worked.) I see your cable is clamped on the black jacket not the steel sleeve. My 6BBL always clamped at the steel sleeve. No matter I've ordered a correct cable for the 4BBL after talking to Mancini Racing. Just to cover all my bases this week I had them throw an AR bracket in like BSB67 suggested. So basically I'll have almost every possible way to configure this thing and find the ideal solution. Am I wasting money...you bet! Am I having fun....not yet!
  I was gonna blow a few hundred bucks on myself this week anyway just for fun, so I'm blowing it on the car instead!     

[Nickrc3]

I was gonna blow a few hundred bucks on myself this week anyway just for fun, so I'm blowing it on the car instead!

...yeah, I hear you Neal. I've always tried to reduce or eliminate paying for services which I could perform to a reasonable degree of quality, specifically home and auto maintenance/improvements.
The other thing which helped me reduce that car spending sting is establishing a savings account in which a pre-determined dollar amount is automatically withdrawn from my bi-monthly paycheck.
My philosophy, if you don't see it, you don't miss it! After a few months/years, you'd be amazed at the 'slush funds' accumulated.

Regarding your recent upgrade - from the recommendation of our fellow member/Moderator Ron (firefighter3931), the installation of a CH4B w/ ProForm carb made the most significant change to the drivability and performance of my vehicle. It literally woke-up the 440, and continues to impress me each time I get behind the wheel.

[b5blue]

   Good to know you like it Nick!  I'll end up pairing this with a set of Sidewinder heads. (A/C also.) With the kids grown, out of the house doing well, now is the time I can play around and this is my week to play! 
  I've a similar plan for my finances also. 

[b5blue]

  Rick E's bracket came in fast, so fast I was at NAPA getting fittings and filters and missed the mailman! I picked it up today and see what he meant. It's VERY adjustable and has provision for the Lokar built in. The cable arrived as I took this first pic of the bracket!
  So Rick's affords 2 heights and the ability to angle the throttle cable and Lokar cable exactly to a straight shot.  I found guys bitching on line that the Lokar cable setup has an issue with the fact that the ratio of pull from the carb end is not proper for the pull at the transmission end. Something of a concern but several replies assured it does work if adjusted correctly. Others may not have been using this throttle bracket set?

[b5blue]

I've started a topic on intake installation to see how/what others do. I know the variables stack, my block has not been decked and the 346 heads just cut to surface for flatness. My intake to head bolt holes had been wallered out so much somebody was having issue in the past. I'll be checking fitment carefully before installing and looking for good advise.   

[b5blue]

  With the Denso ALT out of the way I installed a new Carter M6903 fuel pump using new 3/8th hose barbs and an NPT 90*. I'm adding a 3/8th NAPA Gold fuel filter that's see through in front of the pump until I replace the Tank, Sender/pickup and fuel lines with new. (Later.)

[b5blue]

  The new throttle cable and 2nd bracket came in today. I pulled the old cable off a clearly it's much shorter. A test fit of the intake with just the valley pan looks like no gaskets are needed so things are coming together.
  I reinstalled the CH4B with RTV on the top of the oil dam walls front and back then used a very thin film of Permashield #85420 on the gasket areas on the heads. (It's like Hylomar Universal Blue rated for fuel.) Next a thin film of Permashield on the CH4B just around the intake ports and everything was snugged down. The RTV has to sit overnight to cure but I tightened down the intake gradually going cross side to side, front to back while kinda hitting with my fist to nest the intake to the valley pan. (Like an X pattern.) Tomorrow I'll test brackets for ideal and decide the best. (Still uncertain just what linkage I have for kickdown?)
Old and new cable, even pulled tight new is much longer? (Correct 4BBL 440 for 70 B Body.)
Old and new gas peddle ends, see the rubber grommet is shot on the old one. New grommet is just a plain hardware store pass through one but came with the new cable. 

[b5blue]

  Seeing the new cable is longer and going off BSB67's advise I installed the 36.00 AR bracket first. Everything is lining up nicely and even kick down settings from the 6BBL are very close to ideal. The 1/2" spacer actually brings this combo up so it aligns just enough, any lower and the bracket would be sitting higher then ideal. The Proform throttle adapter bracket bolt at the top interferes with attaching the throttle cable end. The fix was to undo the throttle/kick down stud, attach the cable and pin, then put it's retain nut on. This being the simplest setup I'm going to proceed with it saving the other set of stuff for just in case.
I've got to highlight the fact that my kick down was cobbled together 20 years ago to work with the 6BBL and 4BBL part numbers on Year One's sight Do Not interchange? I've plenty of room for adjustment, not at the near end of adjustment as AR E. stated in the description for this bracket. (As this topic turned from a question to an explanation of findings.)    
Next check is the air cleaner.  

[firefighter3931]

Looks great Neal 

Thanks for posting and explaining the process....valuable information for future reference. Keep up the good work ! 


Ron

[b5blue]

  Thank you for all your advise Ron!  The dual snorkel air cleaner fits fine. I'll do a clearance check with some Play Dough next to find just how much space is left above the air cleaner.  (I know it clears as I've tested it, but just how much we'll see.  )
  Pics not the greatest but I try to show details that may help others doing things a bit different. I can tell it's a good thing for me my air cleaner base is not dropped much.

[b5blue]

Ahh the smell of Play Dough takes be back. Looks better then I dared hope for.
First two before slamming the hood:
Next after:

[b5blue]

One more:

[b5blue]

Still more than 1" at the part of the air cleaner lid on the end of the word "Barrel". I'll call it a good safe fit with a 1/2" spacer and a 70 up air cleaner. Hood pad might just clear? 

[b5blue]

  On to mounting the coil for the Firecore RTR dizzy. The 2 coil mount bolt holes are 5/16th 18 thread just as the 4 for the carb are. After some head scratching, measuring, checking and finding I've nothing of any help I picked up 2" aluminum flat bar and some 5 1/6" 18 bolts.
  I made this simple bracket that just fits. 

[b5blue]

  Then I double checked fit and placement for clearance. This is the supplied RTR coil resting on top of the front bolt. (I'll make longer rubber tubes out of hose to hold the coil just above the bolt head to isolate it from rubbing.) It will just clear the air cleaner base nicely and not pickup heat from the block or heads with a bracket mounted elsewhere.
  This wouldn't have fit without the carb's 1/2" spacer so it's all working out pretty good. 
 

[ACUDANUT]

Since we are now talking about coils, I moved mine to the inner fender.  It says a lot cooler than on top a 200 plus degree engine.

[b5blue]

I know what you mean.  Much later, after heads and A/C are added I'll be building a custom harness for the engine bay. I've a bunch of 40amp control relays and other stuff for the change out to final configuration.  This was better than the 6BBL bracket that attaches to the rear pass. side intake bolts, it gets hotter back there. No telling where stuff may move until then. 

[b5blue]

IT'S ALIVE! After charging the battery and sucking some fuel up to the carb it fired right up. The choke worked nicely and I let it warm up a bit. I'll run a few heat cycles before hitting the road to check/adjust/test things. 

[b5blue]

Here is a link to how I rewired for the carb choke and the Firecore RTR at the same time:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,117514.msg1458201.html#msg1458201

[b5blue]

Well, I talked to Greg at Fabulous Fabrications, he is no longer able to make fuel lines. His arthritis has gotten worse to the point he's dealing with just that.  He hopes to get a vendor interested in his design.   

[b5blue]

  Today I ordered a fancy Proform float adjusting tool, jet changing screwdriver and a chrome fuel line rig for the carb from JEGS. I've a set of .015 intake gaskets from 440Source "just in case". I'll post part numbers when they come in if any are interested.

[Nickrc3]

Today I ordered a fancy Proform float adjusting tool

This tool here, Neal?   

It's helpful, but really, how many times will you use it? Mine was a freebie for placing a large order with JEGS.

[b5blue]

  You don't know how many times I'd wished I had one! 20 years with a 6BBL so 3X time after time.    I'm still hoping for Sidewinder AL. heads later this year, possibly a new bump stick and without a doubt A/C so I'm just building up my tools selection. (Bought a DYI alignment rig also.)
  I've run a few heat cycles this week, firing it up and checking things as it climbs to full temp. The choke and coil are getting a nice fat 13.5V @ idle, it lights up on the first smack of the starter instantly, hot or cold. The choke pulls off quickly and I can't find any leaks. The rear bowl level is a bit high, I'll run that down a bit tonight after work (Without my fancy tool!) and check the torques on all nuts, bolts and connections. I've got a tiny bit of engine shake @ idle I'm not sure about but things are looking good. 

[b5blue]

Fuel bowls level adjusted to center of window and idle screws turned in for 21.75" of vacuum max.  Looks to be time for a drive. (Under load test.)

[moparsr2fast]

 How is she running Neal?  Take her out for a long term cruise yet?  Also, if you have any fuel mileage comparisons later, just for curiosity sakes?   

[b5blue]

I can't drive much, I've loose nuts on some fittings for alignment. I'm waiting for a DYI alignment tool this week. 

[b5blue]

 Update: After bunches of delays finally I have Sidewinder heads installed and sorting out kickdown linkage adjustments. (Hard to tune everything when full throttle results in ping at some ranges.)
Replacing my 8 inch long rod from carb to bellcrank with a similar rod 8 1/2 inch greatly helped adjustable positioning. My bellcrank holes are slightly below the AR bracket's alignment hole so I can't pin it in place per instructions...but I can get it close. I may need to shorten that vertical rod 1/4 inch or so as now it's screwed down all the way but a bit too high still. Down shift is hitting in a good range but shift is a bit soft.
Now that ping is gone I can start adjusting the 750 better also. I'll be looking at power valve and adjusting the vacuum secondary and cover it here if any are interested.