Rebuilding front suspension on a 68 charger

[Donks01]

What is the best front end kit to buy as far as ball joints, bushings exc. I would like to freshen up the front end with a complete kit that would replace all the worn out parts. Also how do the front torsion bars and pivot shaft arms come out? Any suggestions? Thanks Nate.

[Lennard]

If you use the search function with the words: "front suspension rebuilt" you will find most of the info you will need.
From what I've read in all those topics is that using Moog brand parts is the way to go. All the Moog part numbers needed are also available there.

[myk]

You can try PST or Firm Feel; they both have comprehensive kits that can help you accomplish your goal.

Speaking of goals, what are you trying to do with the car?  Just a stock rebuild?  If you're looking for a rock hard ride that will rattle your fillings loose, but help your Charger handle like a Honda Accord check out Hotchkis.net...

[Donks01]

I'm doing a complete restoration on a auto body techs salary. I have spent a lot of money on sheet metal alone, so something low budget yet safe and reliable would be perfect. I realize you can spend the big bucks to make it handle like a dream, but for now I'm looking for just a basic setup. Thanks

[green69rt]

I'm doing a complete restoration on a auto body techs salary. I have spent a lot of money on sheet metal alone, so something low budget yet safe and reliable would be perfect. I realize you can spend the big bucks to make it handle like a dream, but for now I'm looking for just a basic setup. Thanks

I'm going to say...go stock first.   Use all stock components, then figure out what needs to be improved.  Probably the only things I am doing different are to weld up the K member, LCA, then add new bushings everywhere.  Some stiffer torsion bars and rebuild the brakes but not going the expensive Brembro route.   Can still be expensive but at least I can pay the mortgage.

Oh, and if you can, add frame rail extensions and torque boxes.  Anything you can do to stiffen the chassis is an improvement.  If fact if you are doing a complete restoration, I would put frame rail extensions and torque boxes at the top of the list.  Other things can be swapped out later, these things require body apart.

[green69rt]

OK, here are the things I would do from a scatch rebuild.

1. Frame rail extensions.
2. Torque boxes.
3. K member re weld and gusset.
4. Replace all the bushings (rubber or poly, your choice.)
5. Fix the brakes.  New brakes are much better. If drums then new all around.
6. Better steering.  FF stage two or three.
7. Some good shocks.
8. Don't worry about such things as tubular UCAs until you have the car up to snuff.



Maybe more stuff, others can chime in.

[Donks01]

What do you mean by welding up the K frame? I'm going to do the disc brake conversion up front with power booster. I've shopped all around, and everyone seems to have the same price. Also I have the stock steering box, what is FF stage two or three? Didn't the car come with stock torque boxes in the rear? Are you talking about the frame rail connectors? Weld in from side to side. Will the car flex that much? I'm not going to be racing it at the track or anything.

[green69rt]

What do you mean by welding up the K frame? I'm going to do the disc brake conversion up front with power booster. I've shopped all around, and everyone seems to have the same price. Also I have the stock steering box, what is FF stage two or three? Didn't the car come with stock torque boxes in the rear? Are you talking about the frame rail connectors? Weld in from side to side. Will the car flex that much? I'm not going to be racing it at the track or anything.

I'll try to answer the questions in order.

The K frame carries so much weight plus the steering gear that it may flex while turning.  To help out, Firm Feel sells a gusseting kit that really stiffens the unit. look at this site.
http://www.firmfeel.com/b_body_mopar_k_frame_reinforcement.html

 They'll do it for you for $450 or, if you weld, you can do it yourself.  You can see what they do by reading the subscription.  Welding the seam is to weld the flange all the way around.   This is a cheap thing to do if the car is apart and almost impossible to do if the car is together.

Firm feel also will rebuild you stock steering box for faster/more precise steering, it's kind of pricey but a lot of folks spring for it because they are trying to bring that old steering closer to modern standards.  Look here   http://www.firmfeel.com/b_body_mopar_power_steering_box_rebuild.html

The torque boxes and frame rail connectors --  lots add them to stiffen the body up.  These old cars were pretty flexible.  Torque boxes came on a lot of Hemi cars and some 4 speed cars, maybe others.  Again this is a cheap add while the car is down, not so much once it's assembled.

Here's one source for the boxes and frame rail connectors.  There are others.
http://store.uscartool.com/Torque-Boxes-Set-of-four-4-for-1966--1970-Mopar-B-Bodies_p_32.html
http://store.uscartool.com/71-72-b-body-frame-connector.html

All these things just make the car feel more solid and not so creeky.  Plus they're easy to do while the car is apart.  If, someday, you end up going more aggressive with the suspension, you will have a better foundation to work from.

[Donks01]

Wow so much information and modifications you can do! Thanks so much for the Info green69rt! I can see myself spending a lot of time on this forum. I'll just keep on reading.

[green69rt]

Wow so much information and modifications you can do! Thanks so much for the Info green69rt! I can see myself spending a lot of time on this forum. I'll just keep on reading.

And I also spend some time using the search function to see what others do.  I gave you what I think, others may have different ideas and you need to consider what you think is right.  Lots of fun, right!!!

[cdr]

  green69rt  

[garner7555]

I agree   

One thing to note, if your on a budget then subframe connectors can be made out of tubing.  (I used 2"x2" square tubing with 0.25" walls if I remember correctly)
Search on here for "Subframe Connectors"    "Frame Connectors"    "Frame Ties"  and check out the different options.
Once again if your on a budget then Torque boxes could be fabbed up out of some 11 gauge sheet.  (I used US Cartool torque boxes and they are 11 gauge)

You can really save some money here if you have time.  I actually like my tubing frame connectors, they are strong and easier to install than say the US Cartool.  But I don't care about "appearing factory" either.   

[b5blue]

  Wile all suggestions are very good being a cheap SOB...I suggest you overhaul just what is needed first. You can buy repop UCA's that come with new bushings and ball joint installed for less then the cost of parts and tools to rebuild. LCA's bushings and all other parts like lower ball joint and idler arm from Moog are available from Advance Auto.
  Check tie rods and pitman for tightness, clean and grease if good. You can get all new shocks off Rock Auto for about 70.00 delivered. (Monroe Gas-Matic) With everything cleaned and serviced you can adjust it and get it aligned. This will allow you to evaluate the car overall from a fair starting point at the lowest cost and least amount of work.
   

[Donks01]

I will spend the extra money and get the frame connectors and torque boxes from Us Cartool. (Not that expensive) I checked out there site and watched videos of instillation. I've been reading a lot about what bushing and ball joint kit to buy. PST offers the "Super front end kit" polygraphite for $439. People are going back and forth about PST or MOOG. I can't find a complete kit from MOOG. I also couldn't find an answer as to which dealer is better. I would like to get everything at once so I can spend a day to put it all together. Are tubular UCA's really necessary? I plan on a 2" drop spindle with a front disc brake kit. (Also from PST) Front power kit $699. With upgraded 2" lowering spindles $1,108.

[myk]

If you're referring to the hyper-expensive tubular UCA's, no they're not necessary.  The point of those parts is to give you that extra degree of handling performance and unless you need that much handling then it's probably just a waste.  Also, you can go with the offset bushings for stock UCA's and I think that would work for most people.

I'm going to warn you ahead of time though: bone stock these cars don't handle GREAT, but at least they're easy, comfortable cruisers which is what Charger's mostly do anyway.  You start doing the stuff that I have, such as the full Hotchkis TVS package, and, depending on what your town's roads are like, you just might sacrifice too much of that comfortable cruising in the pursuit of better handling...

[green69rt]

I don't have any experience with the poly bushings but others on here do.  There seems to be agreement that a complete poly bushing set will tighten up the control at the expense of a somewhat harsher ride.  If you are going for at least some comfort you may think about using stock type rubber bushings in the control arms and rear springs, poly in the rest may be ok.

Is you car apart or are you just starting and want to keep driving the car while doing the upgrades?  If you want to keep it running then b5blue has a pretty good plan in my mind.  After you do what he suggested then jump on the big stuff but be prepared to have the car undriveable for some time (usually longer than you think  )

Just read myk post and I agree.  I do not plan on the tubular UCAs only offset bushings if required.

[1974dodgecharger]

In stock form with new stuff, IMO, it still handles like a big boat even cruising feels like a boat   

I like a nice firm ride I guess......

[Nickrc3]

What do you mean by welding up the K frame?

I recently modified my K-member with the Firm Feel kit and re-welded all factory spot welds. Very happy with the fit of pieces. She's now epoxy primed and painted with a single-stage satin black.

[1974dodgecharger]

I use a floor jack under that K frame area and now its slightly dented in..guess I should of welded in something like that to reinfornce it?

What do you mean by welding up the K frame?

I recently modified my K-member with the Firm Feel kit and re-welded all factory spot welds. Very happy with the fit of pieces. She's now epoxy primed and painted with a single-stage satin black.

[HPP]

I will spend the extra money and get the frame connectors and torque boxes from Us Cartool. (Not that expensive) I checked out there site and watched videos of instillation. I've been reading a lot about what bushing and ball joint kit to buy. PST offers the "Super front end kit" polygraphite for $439. People are going back and forth about PST or MOOG. I can't find a complete kit from MOOG. I also couldn't find an answer as to which dealer is better. I would like to get everything at once so I can spend a day to put it all together. Are tubular UCA's really necessary? I plan on a 2" drop spindle with a front disc brake kit. (Also from PST) Front power kit $699. With upgraded 2" lowering spindles $1,108.

If you're happy with their price on connectors and don't mind the fitting and welding work, go for it. They are more work than simple tubes and I have yet to see any empirical evidence they are vastly superior to regular tubular units.

I have used PST Super kits in poly for years with good results. There are fans and detractors of poly bushings. The big issue with poly bushings is the lower control arm and strut rod. You must reuse the stock bushing shells with replacement lower control arm polyurethane, so if you destroy the shells in the removal process, your kinda S.O.L.  Additionally, some poly strut bushings are too thick and push the lower control arm back which makes caster gains even more difficult to achieve.  I've not run into this with PST and seems most complaints center around Energy Suspension or Prothane products, but, just a heads up to make sure you check these very carefully during installation.

However, the upper arm poly bushings may be better substituted with Moog offset rubber bushings.  This is because Mopars need additional caster. The Moog offset bushing can provide additional caster over poly bushings and can do this for $30 as compared to tubular upper arms that achieve extra caster for $300. Granted, tubular uppers may have a wider adjustment range, but the offset bushings can be a decent improvement over stock for a minimal price tag.

So in light of the fact that the lower and strut poly bushings are areas for close attention and the upper bushings may not be used, you may decide to skip the extra cost of poly over rubber.

Moog used to be the top quality domestic producers for OEM style parts. Now days they have offshored so much manufacturing that there is no guarantee their stuff is top shelf anymore, although most of it is more than adequate for a restoration or cruiser. TRW also produces some of the better pieces for these components. While neither of these two produce "kits" per sey, you can go to Rock Auto and load up a shopping cart of all the necessary joints, ends, and bushings you need for a basic rebuild in one stop method.

if your on a budget then subframe connectors can be made out of tubing.  (I used 2"x2" square tubing with 0.25" walls if I remember correctly)

I think .25 wall thickness may be a typo. You don't need subframe material anywhere near this strong. .083 is sufficient. This is not a single structural member but is joining the OEM structure of things, which are all close to .80-.090 in thickness.

If you're referring to the hyper-expensive tubular UCA's, no they're not necessary.  The point of those parts is to give you that extra degree of handling performance and unless you need that much handling then it's probably just a waste.  Also, you can go with the offset bushings for stock UCA's and I think that would work for most people.

I agree that they aren't a "must have" for improved handling. As I pointed out above, this improvement comes from adding caster, which can be done with the stock arms, but the stock stuff with Moog offsets will eventually limit how much caster you can achieve. Tubular arms you get further, faster, but with a big price tag.

green69rt is spot on about shoring up flex in the uni-body as a great first effort. If you don' do this, whatever suspension you do have can't work at its best because the body becomes an active participant. you want to eliminate flex wherever possible first.

Once you get all the rebuild done, then come back for more recommendations on parts, specs, and tuning to step up the handling further.

[Donks01]

Man I love this Forum! Thanks everyone for the advice. I am doing a complete restoration. I purchased just the shell of the car. I bought the car because it had solid frame rails. First step I did was put in a full floor pan. I can defiantly see now why everyone is recommending the frame rail connectors and I totally agree 100% why that would help. The only support in the middle of the car is the floor pan. Makes a lot of sense why that would stiffen up the car. I've installed new quarters, tail pan, and lower rear valance. So with all that done, I'm to the point were I am thinking about the front suspension. After looking at the front K frame, I agree also that it could use some more welding to stiffen that up as well. I will take the time and weld a bead around the whole works motor mounts exct. Sounds like the Moog offset bushings for the UCA's is the way to go. I will start with the frame rail connectors, k frame welding, and torque boxes first. That will keep me busy for a while. Thanks again everyone!!javascript:void(0);

[garner7555]

if your on a budget then subframe connectors can be made out of tubing.  (I used 2"x2" square tubing with 0.25" walls if I remember correctly)

I think .25 wall thickness may be a typo. You don't need subframe material anywhere near this strong. .083 is sufficient. This is not a single structural member but is joining the OEM structure of things, which are all close to .80-.090 in thickness.
[/quote]


Oh there's no doubt mine are way overkill.  I either used .25" or maybe 3/16". I have done custom steel fabrication all my life, and I used some tubing I had laying around.  Plus I welded these in when I was a teenager.  Almost everything I did back then wasn't the smartest.      The only plus to the beefy connectors is I can lift the car with them without worry about bending the bottom edge.          
But yes, to be clear, I agree with HPP. This is far above and beyond the what's needed.      

[fy469rtse]

I put a extra piece in my frame rail connectors, to box it off welded in
Just below the notched top that follows floors contours,
This way I could have the best of both , the look of chassis that grew there,
Secondly the added strength of a full box section ,
I would add the fender braces , even after all the mods Mitch listed, they will still flex  nose heavy, these go in with everything else on next car