Questions about 1970 door VIN decals

[polywideblock]

slightly off topic but did vin /fender tags etc.  slip through with the damaged numbers /letters ?

and  if so how common was it for them  to slip through before someone discovered the flaw ?
     
  ,e.g. how many ran down the line before someone  saw that a T was coming through as a I . or an E coming as a I,  or a O as a U instead if you get what I'm saying 

[1974dodgecharger]

NICE at least you were able to talk to someone there....alot of have not. 

lmao, makes you wonder where all the assembly plant workers are who did all this....they must be laughing at people like us arguing   over VINs while they just built them and enjoyed them......

You are 100% correct.  I have actually talked with 2 people involved with the application of the VIN labels at the St.Louis Plant (in the late sixties) and they did in fact laugh when I told them some of the incorrect theories I had initially hypothesized before hearing how simple things really were.  I also know a Gentleman who was the last Procurement Director for the Lynch Road Plant (up until 1982) who told me his personal experiences regarding the different VIN processes.  He called me because he had seen our Advertisements for licensed Monroney Labels and asked it I wanted the 2 "Grocery Bags" of stamping dies and plates that was used to make their Fender tags.  He had collected many interesting items before they shut the Factory down.

[ECS]

slightly off topic but did vin /fender tags etc.  slip through with the damaged numbers /letters ?

and  if so how common was it for them  to slip through before someone discovered the flaw ?
     
 ,e.g. how many ran down the line before someone  saw that a T was coming through as a I . or an E coming as a I,  or a O as a U instead if you get what I'm saying  

Fender Tags were never intended to be anything but an internal Assembly Line list of options on the vehicle and attached prior to going through the paint process.  A metal tag was used to list the options because a paper Broadcast Sheet would never have survived the Priming, Paint and Baking processes.  The Hobby has made the fender Tags into iconic relics for verifying a Chrysler vehicle.  That was never the purpose for their intent.  It is not an item that is used for Federal registration and has no significance to those who actually Govern the legal aspects of a vehicle's certification.  (Unless you're one of the self proclaimed Mopar Police)  These Tags were made by Humans and the data had to be manually entered on the stamping equipment.  I have seen a few that were mis-stamped.    

Chrysler has offered me the opportunity to obtain their equipment for making these metal Tags. They were still being used on their Trucks until 2010-11.  If it all works out the way I am hoping, we will be able to manufacture authentic replacements made from the original Chrysler tooling.  

[Dodge Don]

Good lord, I should have just started a new thread....so much side noise.

Leon, the SPD you referenced is one of many unfilled holes in the puzzle...have not received enough examples to hit every date and narrow down the changes.

Also at no time have I stated that 70 Chargers had any special process or protocol for these decals. Because 70 Chargers were built exclusively at the St. Louis plant I would expect the same holds true for other models built there. Other assembly plants could be a different story...don't know...I only have 70 Charger examples because that is what I focus on exclusively.

When I get some time I'll be checking the early/late decal build dates vs. SPD against fender tag and broadcast sheet data to see if I can spot any common reasons for the variances. I'm going away on vacation so that may take a while.

[Patronus]

I've learned more in ECS's last two posts than from the rest of you bickering children combined.

[ECS]

So ECS either provide examples, NOT hearsay, like Dodge Don and 6bblgt did or leave.

What "examples"?  You mean some typed numbers without a real photo of the items in question?  I believe I have already done that but here you go again since you obviously missed it:

We have documented a few examples of 2 digit years that were made in late February and some that were made as late as May of 1970 that still used 4 digits.  Here are the examples.  NOTE:  I used RED lettering to make my information pertinent like the other guys who were commended for posting their non-hearsay information.

2-70  and 5-1970

There you go MP74!  Now I have provided the same type of iron clad information that Dodge Don & 6bblgt has provided.  Of course I will not be posting actual photos just for "VIN protected to retain confidentiality".  Are you satisfied now?

[TUFCAT]

By looking at the photos you have of those two examples, do you think both examples of VIN door decals were reprocessed (or printed after the fact) as I suggested in my post?  That could clear things up as to the reason for the format changes.

[ECS]

By looking at the photos you have of those two examples, do you think both examples of VIN door decals were reprocessed (or printed after the fact) as I suggested in my post?  That could clear things up as to the reason for the format changes.

You mean an "expert" like you cannot tell the difference between a Processed VIN Font versus a Manual VIN Font?  Would you like to see some additional "typed" VIN fonts that have no relevance with the topic being discussed here?  I thought the issue was Assembly Line versions that were used as the normal default Font for 1970 Chargers!?  Did we just change topic & subject matter again?

[Challenger340]

slightly off topic but did vin /fender tags etc.  slip through with the damaged numbers /letters ?

and  if so how common was it for them  to slip through before someone discovered the flaw ?
     
 ,e.g. how many ran down the line before someone  saw that a T was coming through as a I . or an E coming as a I,  or a O as a U instead if you get what I'm saying  

   

Chrysler has offered me the opportunity to obtain their equipment for making these metal Tags. They were still being used on their Trucks until 2010-11.  If it all works out the way I am hoping, we will be able to manufacture authentic replacements made from the original Chrysler tooling.  

You see, I have mixed feelings about this one ? I guess regarding the term "Authentic Replacements" ?
No Offense to you personally, but who the hell is anybody other than Chrysler to determine, or issue an Authentic replacement ?

And I don't give a damn how much due diligence is exercised, if the "Original" Fender Tag is Lost ? missing ? or damaged/rusted out ?..... that should be THAT vehicles history ?
You want to issue an Authentic "replacement" Fender Tag,  to my way of thinking, it should very clearly authenticate itself as a "replacement" Tag right on the Tag ?
Because,
as has been mentioned earlier in this thread.... no way in hell ANYONE can saw with 100% certainty just WHAT was done by someone else 45 years ago.

[TUFCAT]

no way in hell ANYONE can saw with 100% certainty just WHAT was done by someone else 45 years ago.

Nobody can.  That's why original examples are needed. I also share you sentiment about reproduction documentation. There should be a way to tell the difference.  

Even the word "reproduction documentation" almost doesn't make sense, unless there's a clear way to show people a reproduction indentifier.  

[dyslexic teddybear]

no way in hell ANYONE can saw with 100% certainty just WHAT was done by someone else 45 years ago.

Nobody can.  That's why original examples are needed. I also share you sentiment about reproduction documentation. There should be a way to tell the difference.  

Even the word "reproduction documentation" almost doesn't make sense, unless there's a clear way to show people there's a reproduction indentifier.  

Ain't that a problem......how do you prove ANYTHING done that long ago......when none of it was ever intended to used in this manner?

A reproduction identifier isn't the failsafe answer.......as the absence of this identifier proves it's real?

Personalities aside....ECS uses due diligence. I have no doubt of that. And yet, their label appears to have been used to authenticate a highly questionable Charger.

Love the rare and unique, but I think I'll leave the high $$$ rare and unique to others.

[lukedukem]

i have a ? that sort of relates to this. i had to re-read all this to remember where i was on my last post.
if a guy is doing a restoration and doesn't have this decal and gets one made for his car (no matter if it was march or feb.) there's not really a way to tell if its new one or not. so does it hurt the value of the car if its new repro. decal?

P.S- i got PM'ed on who Gene Lewis is, hope i didn't upset him in my last post when i said i didn't know him


luke

[TUFCAT]

so does it hurt the value of the car if its new repro. decal?

It definitely would if.... it was made by the same guy who made this fender tag!  

All kidding aside, my personal feeling is the more sophisticated hobbyist would be more comfortable knowing a ripped up (or rusty) original sample was used to reproduce his door vin decal or fender tag.  My advice is to photograph, scan or Xerox the original and save it on the computer, or keep it in a safe.

[hemigeno]

P.S- i got PM'ed on who Gene Lewis is, hope i didn't upset him in my last post when i said i didn't know him

Hardly!  I usually prefer it that way...

   

[lukedukem]

so does it hurt the value of the car if its new repro. decal?

It definitely would if.... it was made by the same guy who made this fender tag!  

All kidding aside, my personal feeling is the more sophisticated hobbyist would be more comfortable knowing a ripped up (or rusty) original sample was used to reproduce his door vin decal or fender tag.  My advise photograph, scan or Xerox the original and save it on the computer, or keep it in a safe.

I still have some decals on my car. The car was painted prior to my possession. They taped them to save what was left. But seeing how the only thing original is the rear end, I will never do a full blown out resto. Therefore, I'm not so concerned about keeping them or replaceing them if something happened.

P.S- i got PM'ed on who Gene Lewis is, hope i didn't upset him in my last post when i said i didn't know him

Hardly!  I usually prefer it that way...

   

Lol, you got it. 

Luke

[TUFCAT]

I still have some decals on my car. The car was painted prior to my possession. They taped them to save what was left. But seeing how the only thing original is the rear end, I will never do a full blown out resto. Therefore, I'm not so concerned about keeping them or replaceing them if something happened.

Luke

Luke, I'm absolutely sure you would never try to deceive anyone by removing your door VIN decal.  However, there's always that remote possibility it could be replaced and modified sometime in the future (by an unscrupulous person with bad intentions) should the car ever be sold.

I know that's a wild scenario, but it happens. That's why as collectors we should keep our original vehicle information safe and preserved after removal (i.e. door vin decal example) to remove all future doubt.  Its one more extra little thing we have to serve as documentation for 1970 and up cars.

[lukedukem]

I still have some decals on my car. The car was painted prior to my possession. They taped them to save what was left. But seeing how the only thing original is the rear end, I will never do a full blown out resto. Therefore, I'm not so concerned about keeping them or replaceing them if something happened.

Luke

Luke, I'm absolutely sure you would never try to deceive anyone by removing your door VIN decal.  However, there's always that remote possibility it could be replaced and modified sometime in the future (by an unscrupulous person with bad intentions) should the car ever be sold.

I know that's a wild scenario, but it happens. That's why as collectors we should keep our original vehicle information safe and preserved after removal (i.e. door vin decal example) to remove all future doubt.  Its one more extra little thing we have to serve as documentation for 1970 and up cars.

ah, i see. well, the only decal my car has on the doors is this one....  (it's a '69, not sure what decasl they have, please educate me))

[TUFCAT]

Sorry, thought it was a '70 (...I should have looked on your avatar!)       No vin decal should be there.

[ECS]

No Offense to you personally, but who the hell is anybody other than Chrysler to determine, or issue an Authentic replacement ?

It appears we both are in complete agreement!  Why not let Chrysler tell you (and the others here) who they "determine" authorized to "issue" their "Authentic Replacement" VIN items?  And with "no offense" towards you and the others posting here, Chrysler's authorization means much more than the opinions given by people who have absolutely no authority to say what they think should or shouldn't be allowed with their Programs. 

Who better than the CHRYSLER CORPORARTION to inform you of the Exclusive Company they deem qualified to represent their VIN Program!  (We have a similar contract for ALL of the pre-1990 and earlier VIN Labels.)

[lukedukem]

Sorry, thought it was a '70 (...I should have looked on your avatar!)       No vin decal should be there.

That's cool. I'd like a 70 though, to add to my stable.
I was just curious... I learned a lot so far and love this kinda stuff. It's the little things like this that
has me thinking about back in that time, what were they thinking when they made some of the decisions or changes

Luke

[ECS]

(it's a '69, not sure what decasl they have, please educate me))

Hi Luke!  I was waiting to see if tufcat would help educate you about your question concerning VIN Decal data for your vehicle but I guess he decided to ignore telling you about the SAFETY STANDARDS Decal that was a preclude to the 1970 thru Present Day VIN Labels.  On your A Pillar post (somewhere close to your interior light switch) you should have a black & silver Decal that was the start of what was to become the Vehicle Safety Certification "VIN" Label.  

As I stated in a previous post, the law for these Federal Labels was actually established by the SAE in September of 1966.  The A Pillar Safety Decal was used on 1968 thru 1969 vehicles but did not have specific information that referenced the production build date of the vehicle or the actual Vehicle Identification Number.  The Decals were all the same for every model/vehicle and read:

MANUFACTURER CERTIFIES TO DEALER THIS VEHICLE UPON COMPLETION OF MANUFACTURE CONFORMED TO APPLICABLE UNITED STATES SAFETY STANDARDS UNDER PUBLIC LAW 89-563.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/STATUTE-80/pdf/STATUTE-80-Pg718.pdf

 

[lukedukem]

(it's a '69, not sure what decasl they have, please educate me))

Hi Luke!  I was waiting to see if tufcat would help educate you about your question concerning VIN Decal data for your vehicle but I guess he decided to ignore telling you about the SAFETY STANDARDS Decal that was a preclude to the 1970 thru Present Day VIN Labels.  On your A Pillar post (somewhere close to your interior light switch) you should have a black & silver Decal that was the start of what was to become the Vehicle Safety Certification "VIN" Label.  

As I stated in a previous post, the law for these Federal Labels was actually established by the SAE in September of 1966.  The A Pillar Safety Decal was used on 1968 thru 1969 vehicles but did not have specific information that referenced the production build date of the vehicle or the actual Vehicle Identification Number.  The Decals were all the same for every model/vehicle and read:

MANUFACTURER CERTIFIES TO DEALER THIS VEHICLE UPON COMPLETION OF MANUFACTURE CONFORMED TO APPLICABLE UNITED STATES SAFETY STANDARDS UNDER PUBLIC LAW 89-563.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/STATUTE-80/pdf/STATUTE-80-Pg718.pdf

 

Ok, just went out and checked and it's still there. But it's half rubbed off from the door weather stripping seal. But I can read the SAFETY STANDARDS UNDER PUBLIC LAW 89-563 part.
So, does anyone think that maybe there's an real early built 70 that still has one of these like mine.
Or maybe a late 69 with the one on the door like the 70 and up have.
I guess if they changed it per body year they wouldn't exist. As soon as the first 70 was to cross the assembly line they put the other decal with the vin on

Luke

[Moparpoolman]

Didn't they start using Door VIN decals sometime in 1969?

[lukedukem]

Didn't they start using Door VIN decals sometime in 1969?

Really? Well mine car is a 11-1968 build, but if anyone know or has a late built 69 can you check. I would think
that they would wait till the first 70 but you could be correct

Luke

[charge69]

Well, I wouldn't call mine a late-year build but it has a SPD of 314 and it had the "Public Law" sticker on the inside of the driver's side A pillar post and I replaced it with the same repro sticker.  It was pretty scratched up but it was there.