Questions about 1970 door VIN decals

[ECS]

I still have my doubts

You certainly have the right to doubt anything you want.  One thing you shouldn't doubt is that I won't post a SINGLE SHRED OF PROOF until tufcat or MN74 provide the ACTUAL VIN DECAL that prompted their line of questioning about the subject matter.

[lukedukem]

first off, thanks for the complement on my intelligence. i know i post reply's weird but bare with me
1st bold: IMO, the origination was dodge don's ? about the time line in which it was changed
2nd bold: sorry for my ignorance, but i don't know who gene is. wondering if hes like a galen glover type
3rd bold: i realize you have to pay this guy to do this and it would cost money
4th bold: Davtona, he would also like the info like dodge don, because he owns a car in that time frame.
i brought this up because i think this is the origin. and there are quiet a few who want to know. but you "won't post proof until others provide a decal", hurts the rest of us from learning. i'm not playing a game, just trying to figure it all out
if i go to a show and two guys have 70 chargers and on is made in January and one in April, the decal should be different, and if they don't know then i could explain it to them, proving that intelligence i possess (my attempt at some humor in this thread)

luke

You obviously have the intelligence to understand what I have written and are 100% correct with your assessment.  If the question asked by tufcat and MN74 originated from the decal that I made for the bogus 70 green Charger, then this entire thread is nothing more than a waste of everyone's time.  I have CLEARLY STATED MANY TIMES that an original example was not used to format that VIN decal and the date was issued at the Customers request.  I was just talking with Gene Lewis on the phone and he heard the conversation I just had with one my Employees about this topic.  I asked my Employee (Charlie) how long it would take him to filter through the examples we have in order to find a specific style VIN decal.  His exact words were that "it would be like finding a needle in a haystack".  He said we have "thousands" that would have to be sifted through.  

I don't mind searching for the information but there is no reason for doing so if the green Charger "replacement" VIN decal is the focal point of this instigation/charade.  As Davtona stated in a previous post, the real reason that tufcat & MN74 have been so obsessed with the subject matter, is listed in his quote below.  They are simply on a Witch hunt!  I guess I should be flattered that they are obsessed with following everything I do and every move I make.  

This whole 70 Charger door tag subject to you has been to prove ECS wrong again. More than what is correct on a 70 Charger door. I have a 70 6 pack Charger and follow this thread in the hopes I maybe learn more about them. Your personal vendetta is getting in the way of that.

I still have my doubts

You certainly have the right to doubt anything you want.  One thing you shouldn't doubt is that I won't post a SINGLE SHRED OF PROOF until tufcat or MN74 provide the ACTUAL VIN DECAL that prompted their line of questioning about the subject matter.

In other words, ECS doesn't know the answer.  That's fine.  It doesn't benefit me personally, not until I get a 70.  But, I'm sure the select few with 70's would like to know.

[70 sublime]

  I asked my Employee (Charlie) how long it would take him to filter through the examples we have in order to find a specific style VIN decal.  His exact words were that "it would be like finding a needle in a haystack".  He said we have "thousands" that would have to be sifted through.  

Hey ECS What good is it to have all these examples in your possession but can not find usefull info from them 

Proud 70 Charger owner

[Davtona]

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xc94j_elmer-j-fudd-millionaire_news

Hey ECS What good is it to have all these examples in your possession but can not find usefull info from them  

Proud 70 Charger owner

To your point 70 Sublime maybe Dodge Don and ECS should / could connect privately and exchange information. The 70 Charger Registry would benefit from the information as would in turn all 70 Charger owners. The information could be exchanged as needed to benefit the hobby. I'm sure both parties would be more than happy to do that. I personally don't see where Elmer Fudd and his gang needs to know what information Dave has collected.  

[moparnation74]

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xc94j_elmer-j-fudd-millionaire_news

Hey ECS What good is it to have all these examples in your possession but can not find usefull info from them  

Proud 70 Charger owner

To your point 70 Sublime maybe Dodge Don and ECS should / could connect privately and exchange information. The 70 Charger Registry would benefit from the information as would in turn all 70 Charger owners. The information could be exchanged as needed to benefit the hobby. I'm sure both parties would be more than happy to do that. I personally don't see where Elmer Fudd and his gang needs to know what information Dave has collected.  

Daytona,

Historical information is a part of automotive history.  It impacts our hobby as a whole.  One may know more information about a particular model/year than the next.  Again, this is a forum where people are allowed to ask questions, period.  Some answer and obviously some did not. 

My two cents!

[ECS]

Hey ECS What good is it to have all these examples in your possession but can not find usefull info from them  

Proud 70 Charger owner

Who said that it couldn't be found?  I have documentation for every VIN we've ever made since day one.  What's the purpose for obtaining information about the "exception" for these VIN decals if you don't even know what your Original decal looked like?  If you don't have a picture of your Original VIN decal to reference, then use the default style that was known to exist before or after the March 10th date.  If you're not sure what yours originally looked like, why make it more difficult than it is?  

When we manufacture these items, we keep these records in case there is a legal issue or an audit from the Manufacturers.  Would you go out of your way to provide something for a couple of people who continuously slander and disparage your efforts?  Besides, I've asked them their purpose for soliciting what's in my Database but they can't take the time to provide a simple answer!  Of course I'm expected to jump through hoops when they say jump.  Sorry but I don't consider these spineless cowards on a witch hunt (trying to use my own information against me) as a priority or legal matter.  

I provided a means to contact me if you're truly interested in finding out more about the topic being discussed here.  It's amazing that so many of you claim to want an answer but no one has taken the time to pick up the phone or send me a private email.  (dave@ecsautomotive.com)  Isn't it funny that when you remove the Forum instigating from the equation, it's not so important to obtain information that seems to be such a necessity?    

[davidcam69]

I'm still a customer Dave, I see exactly what's going on.

[hemi-hampton]

Thanks to my car being a unrestored unmolested original survivor with original paint & original 24,000 miles & 100% rustfree has kept the door decal & other stuff in good condition. THANKS, LEON.

Leon, was your car built at or after mid march? Apparently, prior to mid march the format was different.  It would be nice to have earlier examples to clarify that idea.  Hey, at least you were willing to share your single example!

I believe my post said SPD was 330. Meaning March 30th. Sorry to Interupt your Arguments. Proceed. LEON.

[Y1CHARGER]

what happened to the ragging lunatic accusation Tuffy? Changed your post four times now.

It's funny how some say things and then go back and pretend it was never said.(change their posts)

I've bought from ECS in the past and think they have great products.  I also think that at some point those who don't speak so highly of Dave might actually need his help in the future and will find a burnt bridge.

[bill440rt]

Personally, I don't have a "specific reason" other than being a Charger enthusiast wanting to know the little detail idiosyncrasies that sets some apart from others & when they were built.

Like the 2-1970 or 2-70 thing. So, which one is "correct"? If both are, how many of each type do we "think" were made? A "single tag" is not what triggered these thoughts, just the fascination of the overall nuances. Is that thought process now wrong??   
Again, as a Charger enthusiast it's just common nature to learn as much as possible about these cars. I'd love to see comparison door tag photos.

Not sure what the big hub-bub is all about. 

[Dodge Don]

Here is what I have (all supported by pictures on file). IN SPD and VIN sequence. VIN protected to retain confidentiality.

802   AUGUST 1969
802   AUGUST 1969
804   AUGUST 1969
805   AUGUST 1969
806   AUGUST 1969
808   AUGUST 1969
808   AUGUST 1969
808   AUGUST 1969
811   AUGUST 1969
811   AUGUST 1969
813   AUGUST 1969
815   AUGUST 1969
815   AUGUST 1969
818   AUGUST 1969
818   AUGUST 1969
818   AUGUST 1969
821   AUGUST 1969
828   AUGUST 1969
903   SEPTEMBER 1969
903   SEPTEMBER 1969
904   SEPTEMBER 1969
905   AUGUST 1969
908   9 - 1969
908   SEPTEMBER 1969
908   SEPTEMBER 1969
908   9 - 1969
908   SEPTEMBER 1969
911   SEPTEMBER 1969
912   9 - 1969
912   SEPTEMBER 1969
913   SEPTEMBER 1969
915   9 - 1969
915   9 - 1969
915   9 - 1969
917   9 - 1969
918   9 - 1969
923   9 - 1969
923   9 - 1969
926   10 - 1969
A01   10 - 1969
A08   10 - 1969
A10   10 - 1969
A15   10 - 1969
A15   10 - 1969
A16   10 - 1969
A16   10 - 1969
A21   11 - 1969
A27   10 - 1969
A29   10 - 1969
B05   10 - 1969
B06   11 - 1969
B06   11 - 1969
B07   11 - 1969
B10   11 - 1969
B12   11 - 1969
B12   11 - 1969
B18   11 - 1969
B18   11 - 1969
B19   12 - 1969
B20   11 - 1969
B20   11 - 1969
B21   11 - 1969
B21   11 - 1969
B21   11- 1969
B24   11 - 1969
B24   11 - 1969
B24   11 - 1969
B25   11 - 1969
B28   12 - 1969
B28   12 - 1969
B28   12 - 1969
B28   12 - 1969
C03   12 - 1969
C03   12 - 1969
C05   12 - 1969
C05   12 - 1969
C08   12 - 1969
C08   12 - 1969
C09   12 - 1969
C12   12 - 1969
C12   12 - 1969
C15   12 - 1969
C15   12 - 1969
C16   12 - 1969
C16   12 - 1969
C17   12 - 1969
C17   12 - 1969
C17   1 - 1970
C17   12 - 1969
C17   12 - 1969
C17   12 - 1969
C18   1 - 1970
105   1 - 1970
105   1 - 1970
106   12 - 1969
108   1 - 1970
109   1 - 1970
114   1 - 1970
119   1 - 1970
119   1 - 1970
120   1 - 1970
122   2 - 1970
202   1 - 1970
203   2 - 1970
204   2 - 1970
204   2 - 1970
204   2 - 1970
206   2 - 1970
212   2 - 1970
213   2 - 1970
213   2 - 1970
216   2 - 1970
216   2 - 1970
216   2 - 1970
216   2 - 1970
218   2 - 1970
219   2 - 1970
220   2 - 1970
220   2 - 1970
223   2 - 1970
223   2 - 1970
224   2 - 1970
224   2 - 1970
224   2 - 1970
224   2 - 1970
227   2 - 1970
227   2 - 1970
227   2 - 1970
302   3 - 1970
302   2 - 1970
303   2 - 1970
304   3 - 1970
304   3 - 1970
305   3 - 1970
309   3 - 1970
310   3 - 1970
312   3 - 70
319   3 - 70
323   3 - 70
323   3 - 70
324   3 - 70
324   3 - 70
325   3 - 70
326   3 - 70
327   4 - 70
327   3 - 70
402   4 - 70
402   4 - 70
407   4 - 70
409   4 - 70
409   4 - 70
410   4 - 70
413   5 - 70
415   4 - 70
415   5 - 70
508   5 - 70
512   5 - 70
512   5 - 70
514   5 - 70
518   5 - 70
520   6 - 70
521   5 - 70
525   5 - 70
527   5 - 70
527   5 - 70
528   5 - 70
529   5 - 70
601   6 - 70
602   5 - 70
606   6 - 70
609   6 - 70
615   6 - 70
616   6 - 70
616   6 - 70
616   6 - 70
616   6 - 70
617   6 - 70
617   6 - 70
617   6 - 70
618   6 - 70
619   6 - 70
623   6 - 70
706   7 - 70
706   7 - 70
706   7 - 70


You may notice there is a gap between 415 and 501.....this is also evident in the main 70 Charger database of 3,140+ cars....not a single car with a SPD of 416-430. The VINs remain in sequence from 415 and then on 501. I cannot find any reference to a strike or work action at the St. Louis assembly plant for the last 2 weeks in April. Any ideas?

All the above decals are in the font style and font size that are what you would typically see. However there are 3 decals with unusual font style/size and where the month and year are separated with a "/" rather than a "-". On the last one they got the assembly plant wrong...says B but all 70 Chargers were built at St. Louis plant "G".

[TUFCAT]

There is only one possible scenario I can think of for any variations of the Door VIN decal....a vehicle missed its final line station where a door Safety Certification VIN decal would have been applied, applied at a later time, or removed and re-applied. This would be the case on some vehicles that didn't make it all the way through the final line and had to be "reprocessed" (moved into repair), or some other situations.

1969 Daytona is a perfect example. Even though 1969 did not require these federal decals, the length of time actually required to produce them as 1969 models was an unknown variable. Chrysler wanted to be ahead of this requirement and sent newly printed door vin certification labels to Creative to be affixed to the doors since the federal mandate of 8/31/69 was looming - - they didn't want to be cut short.

If a vehicle was taken off the final line for repair or other reasons and did not proceed normally into its final line sequence, its very possible that it could've also missed its "calendar end" month date by a couple days (even weeks) depending on the delay and needed to be reprinted.

Since a Federal Door Vin decal was required before being released from the plant....very much like late Daytona's, some reprocessed '70 decals had a slightly different font, and some even used "dashes" in between the VIN - depending on the month, date (and assembly plant) in question.  

This shows a scenario ECS will not divulge.  There are many differences between an production door vin decal, and the ones that were "reprocessed" afterwards. ECS apparently wants people to believe they were all the same fonts and formats....but they were not. There's proof of slight decal variations.

Regular production door vin decals, and ones that were "reprocessed" (printed in a different manner than typical production line version) have been proven by experts in mopar community on legitimate cars with proven originality, broadcast sheets, and fender tags.

The vast majority of cars --probably close to 98% were printed the exact same way.  Not many cars had to be "reprocessed" to the extent that they needed a new decal affixed to the door so there's a very slight MINORITY for any given period of time, at any given assembly plant.

However this scenario would become more prevalent after August, 1971 when the MDH (month, date, hour) had to be printed on the Federal label.  If the vehicle was pulled and delayed for a significant period of time....the "assembly line version" of the Federal Safety Certification Vin could be significantly out of date and need replacement to meet the FMVSS standards.

I'm sure I will get flamed and ridiculed for posting this... so lets the chips fall where they may.  I'm sure this post will be viewed by some as being an "instigator"  

[ECS]

I'm still a customer Dave, I see exactly what's going on.

Thanks for the support David!  What these guys don't understand is that I will NEVER prostitute or compromise who I am to make a dollar.  They also do not realize that the Classic side of my business is a VERY small contributing part of what we do.  I could close it down tomorrow and never feel the effect of doing so.  I happen to have a passion for the Classic Car Industry and love helping and making products for ANYONE whenever possible.  Those who have stopped by my Company usually walk out with whatever they want for Free!  I tell them that their stopping by and allowing me to enjoy their company is payment enough for what they need. 

Many of you who have dealt with me in the past, know I would do just about anything to help whenever possible.  I refuse to cower down to the Liars and Hypocrites who pretend they are lilly white when all they want is to instigate trouble.  Stay away from ECS if you don't like me or what I stand for!  That goes for ANY Individual or Company that we supply products for.   You want the best Service and most authentic Restoration Products on the Market, we manufacture & supply them!   As I stated earlier, it's not a popularity contest for me.   

[hemi-hampton]

Wonder what a SPD of 311 would be? 2 digit or 4 digit, seems to be about the time they made the switch & did not see one on Dons list. LEON.

[JB400]

Glad you got some results Don.  Thanks for sharing

[6bblgt]

from Don's list - the following Chargers can be determined to have been built "early" or "LATE" based on their door decals:

905   AUGUST 1969
926   10 - 1969  LATE
A21   11 - 1969  LATE
B05   10 - 1969
B19   12 - 1969  LATE
B28   12 - 1969  LATE
B28   12 - 1969  LATE
B28   12 - 1969  LATE
B28   12 - 1969  LATE
C17   1 - 1970  real LATE
C18   1 - 1970  real LATE
106   12 - 1969
122   2 - 1970  LATE
202   1 - 1970
302   2 - 1970
303   2 - 1970
327   4 - 70  LATE
413   5 - 70  real LATE
415   5 - 70  real LATE
520   6 - 70  LATE
602   5 - 70

How many of these LATEs are sunroof cars?

I've started developing a '70 model year St. Louis production date calendar.  The average I've seen is 1/2 day early, which may actually be just "on time" based on the number of shifts it took to complete each car. 
To date the latest car I've found was in-plant 24 days after its "Scheduled Production Date". 
Anyone with the desire to exchange info, learn more and/or help figure out some of this minutia feel free to contact me - dhead68AThotmail.com.  thanks,  Dan   

IMO b'cast sheets from the September and March cars would provide info regarding the actual date the "normal" month/year format changed on the door decals.

[ECS]

Wonder what a SPD of 311 would be? 2 digit or 4 digit, seems to be about the time they made the switch & did not see one on Dons list. LEON.

It could have possibly been either Leon.  There was NEVER a special protocol or VIN Instruction that applied ONLY to Chargers.  What you have here is a small group of guys who are desperately trying to create a reason that supports their "Keebler Elves" theory for the manner in which Charger VIN Labels were printed.  The Federal VIN Program was applicable to ALL cars and there were not "special" aspects purposefully created to differentiate one vehicle line from another.  If a car could not have their VIN made via the normal assembly process entered by Computer, they had to be done manually.  There was no "special" typing machine that did the printing.  As long as the data correctly reflected the vehicle information, that's all that was required to fulfill the NHTSA mandates.  One day a font might be used from one office Machine/Printer and the next it might be made using a different font.  You will NEVER find any Engineering or Special Document that illustrates these variations because it didn't matter what font was used as long as the VIN information was correct and in compliance with the Federal Safety Certification Label mandates.  

For the record, the Guy who does our class VINs said he positively remembers making a 2 digit VIN (made in late February of 1970) that had the REGULAR processed font and NOT a "special" typed font.  Some of you are trying to formulate reasons for a variation that was NEVER called out to be anything other than the happenstance that resulted due to the process.  If you think that they were making "special" VINs to sensationalize a certain type of vehicle you are delusional.  If a "special" font was used it was nothing more than the residual effect of completing the process for a vehicle that could not be manufactured under normal assembly protocol.  

[ECS]

Then prove me wrong.....

I can't prove a negative tuffy!  The VINs were made the way they were made and trying to force or create a purpose for the accidental factors of the process is a waste of time.  The VINS were printed like they were printed and the facts were simply the facts.  Some were printed and changed throughout the year to expedite or complete an anomaly on the Assembly Line and others were printed in the succession of the sequence for which they were ordered.  You may never know the reasons why and does it really matter?  What are you guys trying to accomplish (for example) by saying that 14 Cars had this type of VIN while these 33 Cars had a different style of printed VIN font?  What then?  Does it change what was printed on the examples that were done at the time they were printed?  What conclusion do you expect to "prove"?

Here's one for you "experts" to figure out.  The Windsor Canada Assembly Plant used 2 different Fonts on many of their A Body vehicles.  One font was just like the LA Font (except the 0) and the 3, 5, 6 and 9's were shaped totally different than the Belvedere, St.Louis, Hamtramck and Lynch Road Plant Fonts.  The other Windsor Font looked exactly like the Assembly Line Fonts used for the previous Plants just mentioned.  One vehicle would use one font and the very next sequential vehicle might use the other Font.  Some cars built at the same time as those vehicles used a MIXTURE of the 2 Fonts on the same VIN Decal.  Why don't you guys figure THAT scenario out and explain it to the Members here?  It's more intriguing than the Charger Fonts you are trying to find an explanation for!

[polywideblock]

answering as just one of the dumbass masses , wouldn't that indicate worn/broken  letters / numerals being replaced with whatever was at hand .
           that 3 or t was going in that hole regardless of the font    

[ECS]

......wouldn't that indicate worn/broken  letters / numerals being replaced with whatever was at hand    

What doesn't make sense is that a particular vehicle was made 5 sequential numbers away from the car where the "Letter / numerals replaced" from possible damage, then matches the same style of Font for a vehicle that was made 5 digits before that car!  There appears to be no reason for the variation in Fonts or the way they bounce back and forth between cars that were built within a few digits of each other.  These are the types of scenarios that will keep you running in circles and ultimately prove to be inconsequential.  You might feel content after coming up with a conclusion that satisfies your curiosity but still be no closer to the actual truth than when you started the investigation.  For some of these VIN nuances it may prove to be nothing more than random consequences for the scenario.

One last point, I haven't called anyone a "dumbass" concerning this subject matter.  If anyone has been insinuated to be a "dumbass" it has been the sentiment constantly directed towards me.  I do this for a living and it gets old when some here ask me a question, I give an honest answer and they proceeded to try and disprove my response.  Don't ask me rhetorical questions if you are simply looking to argue the point.  It's a waste of both your time and mine.

[polywideblock]

 my bad should have substituted "uninformed  ", just my aussie slang coming out   

[1974dodgecharger]

lmao, makes you wonder where all the assembly plant workers are who did all this....they must be laughing at people like us arguing  over VINs while they just built them and enjoyed them......

[polywideblock]

I get the impression that it would be like anywhere else once you've been doing the same thing for a while you become blasé  and mistakes just happen   

[ECS]

lmao, makes you wonder where all the assembly plant workers are who did all this....they must be laughing at people like us arguing   over VINs while they just built them and enjoyed them......

You are 100% correct.  I have actually talked with 2 people involved with the application of the VIN labels at the St.Louis Plant (in the late sixties) and they did in fact laugh when I told them some of the incorrect theories I had initially hypothesized before hearing how simple things really were.  I also know a Gentleman who was the last Procurement Director for the Lynch Road Plant (up until 1982) who told me his personal experiences regarding the different VIN processes.  He called me because he had seen our Advertisements for licensed Monroney Labels and asked it I wanted the 2 "Grocery Bags" of stamping dies and plates that was used to make their Fender tags.  He had collected many interesting items before they shut the Factory down.

[ECS]

my bad should have substituted "uninformed  ", just my aussie slang coming out   

No problem!  Sorry for the mix up and thanks for your input.  I certainly don't consider your views to be in the category of "uninformed".