Questions about 1970 door VIN decals

[ECS]

I believe Performance Car Graphics (David Patik) produces them as well, but I haven't seen his handiwork in person as I have with ECS/Dave Walden's.

Thanks for the compliment Brother Gene!  I am pretty sure however that we are also the exclusive supplier for the 1990 and earlier Decals as well.  If anyone else is supplying them, they are doing so without the proper authority.

[ECS]

If I am reading this correctly.  A reputable shop replaces a damaged drivers door on a 70 charger.  They will cut out the vin door decal from the damaged door and place in it the glovebox?  Now that's interesting.  Has anyone ever found one?

I've never had one from an older "Classic vehicle" but we receive them from Collision Repair Facilities (for verification) almost on a daily basis!

[ECS]

Whats the magic number you have to document in order to not be accused of pushing a personal agenda of alternate reality?

Just one!  

I went ahead and spent about 6 hours trying to locate odd VIN Decals and located a few of them.  These pictures represent a very small sample of the random anomalies I have been talking about.  I have THOUSANDS of similar documented pictures and it would take DAYS to sort through them all.  Please keep in mind that these oddities are NOT considered the rule but just a SMALL exception to the rule.  

Just to further clarify the March 10th "line in the sand" that everyone keeps referring to, I am the one who came up with that documented observation over ten years ago.  It was a "pattern" that seemed to develop as I collected the original examples throughout the years.  To be perfectly clear, there is no "line in the sand" or definitive/absolute rule as it relates to the March 10th 1970 date.  You will find a handful of variations that trump that specific date if you try to use it as an absolute gauge to monitor print variations.  The data for the processed VIN labels were entered by "people" and variations and/or mistakes occurred on a regular basis.  It wasn't specific to a particular Plant, Model or Year.  They ALL had the same types of odd nuances that could be found at random.  There are no absolute explanations for some of these variations.  They simply occurred as a residual effect of the processing errors performed by the Employees who did the job.

These photos should clarify some of the issues being discussed here such as Dates, Fonts and Customer "requests" for wanting their information repositioned on their replacement VIN Decal.





















 

[sdweatherman]

Thanks for your time Dave in putting together the slide show - not a small task! Drives home the fact that humans are not perfect - and mistakes are made even in a tightly controlled environment. You have to remember that the workers that were chucking out these labels were probably not paid very well, and the job was probably very monotonous and prone to some errors. Many of us have read posts about how the SPD on fender tags doesnt necessarily mean the car was actually built on that day. So trying to find a "line in the sand" is pretty futile I would think. So, trying to gather as much info on these cars as possible, and making the best decisions on the gathered data - is about as good as we can do. Nobody is perfect, the system was not perfect - so nobody should expect perfection when it comes to this kind of work.
Scott.

[tan top]

   thanks for sharing this , interesting stuff 

[nvrbdn]

awesome. so what I see is that as long as certain information is listed on the tag, you can post it in any pattern you choose according to who is working that day. so going back to the original question,(or at least I thought it was the original thought)  at the st. Louis plant in February 70 it could be printed either way according to who was doing it unless they mandated at that plant what the standard would be.

  there is really some interesting variations in your selection of tags. thanks for showing them.

[moparnation74]

Thanks for posting those door vin tag variations.  Very interesting how diverse the door vin stickers are.  That is exactly what I was looking for some 9 pages ago.

Great work, Dave and thanks for taking your time to post that! 

[bill440rt]

Thanks for posting those door vin tag variations.  Very interesting how diverse the door vin stickers are.  That is exactly what I was looking for some 9 pages ago.

Great work, Dave and thanks for taking your time to post that! 

X2 

Fascinating stuff, for sure. 

[ECS]

.....there is really some interesting variations in your selection of tags. thanks for showing them.

You're quite welcome.  Those do not even scratch the surface of the ones I have accumulated over the past 12 years.  After searching for a few hours, I came up with over 50 odd variations from different Assembly Plants and model vehicles.  The ones I posted were just a small sample from those.  I can post MANY more if you guys want to really become confused!    

Like I had stated earlier, I am the person who came up with the March 10th 1970 date for when most Assembly Plants converted to the 2 year date configuration.  It was a good "line in the sand" to use for those Customers who did not have their original to format from.  There were always however a few examples that would defy the March 10th pattern that seemed to be unfolding.  When I talked to the Workers who actually processed the data for the Assembly Line VIN Labels they provided an explanation that was simple.  They said that the original labels were intended to have the entire Month spelled out, along with the 4 digit date for the year.  Someone in Corporate decided that using a single or double digit would save significant processing time for the Employees who were entering about 800 Vehicle Numbers a day.  

Then came the change in Emission Standards which took place on March 10th of 1970.  It may have been a coincidence or deliberate because that seemed to be when they decided to eliminate the "19" from the year and just use the decade.  It certainly made simple sense!  Instead of processing (typing) the date of "SEPTEMBER 1969" all they had to do was type in 9-1969.  It eliminated having to type 9 additional characters.  Multiply the effort to type 9 additional characters by approximately 800 cars and that adds up to a significant time savings!

If you notice I was able to find some that defy the March 10th 1970 protocol that we have come to accept as a possible time line for VIN change.  I RARELY have found certain examples that used 10-69 instead of the typical 10-1969.  After March 10, 1970 I still found a RARE amount that still used for digits like 3-1970.  This was explained in this manner.  If the typical Employee who processed the VIN Decals went on vacation, took a day off, was sick, etc...... they had to find another person to do their job.  That "new" person may not have known the changes that was made and processed the "wrong" date characters until someone told them of the VIN changes.  A few of them could have been printed inconsistent as compared to the normal/changed protocols.  

[nvrbdn]

  If the typical Employee who processed the VIN Decals went on vacation, took a day off, was sick, etc...... they had to find another person to do their job.  That "new" person may not have known the changes that was made and processed the "wrong" date characters until someone told them of the VIN changes.  A few of them would could been printed inconsistent as compared to the normal/changed protocols. 
[/quote]

  this makes a lot of sense. could well explain how "just a few" differences could get through. "no need to go back and correct the ones that are done, just do it this way from now on"

     I also noted that some plants would use  "6/70" where others used "6-70"

[ECS]

 could well explain how "just a few" differences could get through. "no need to go back and correct the ones that are done, just do it this way from now on"..... I also noted that some plants would use  "6/70" where others used "6-70"

You are correct.  Like I have said before, trying to make sense out of something that has no deliberate or planned pattern becomes inconsequential.  These changes and variations were not a die hard, deliberate effort by the Assembly Plants.  As long as the Production Date and Vehicle Number were placed in the designated areas, they were in compliance with the NHTSA mandates.  They could have (for example) read AUGUST 1969 or 8-1969 or 8-69 0r 8/1969 or 8/69 and still have been technically correct for spelling out the build date of the vehicle.  

I'm not saying ALL of those variations can be documented or were ever used, I'm just saying that the Data Entry Person had the latitude to use a selection or Alpha/Numeric variations and still be in compliance with the NHTSA requirements  This was especially true for the Manual Typed versions.

[ECS]

Thanks for posting those door vin tag variations.  Very interesting how diverse the door vin stickers are.  That is exactly what I was looking for some 9 pages ago.
Great work, Dave and thanks for taking your time to post that! 

After things settled down between us and the "bickering" subsided, I did this per your request from those earlier pages.  The "Thanks" actually goes out to you MN74.  I'll post some other weird variations if you want to see them.  Believe me when I say it only gets worse and more confusing. 

On the other hand, I can show you what I believe represents the actual "protocol" for the Assembly Line vehicles and what was used for the majority of 99.5% of the production cars.  I also have History for many vehicles that used a Typed Font and the "one of a kind" circumstance that dictated the car be removed from the line and the Typed decal be used in place of the Assembly Line version.   

[moparnation74]

Thanks for posting those door vin tag variations.  Very interesting how diverse the door vin stickers are.  That is exactly what I was looking for some 9 pages ago.
Great work, Dave and thanks for taking your time to post that! 

After things settled down between us and the "bickering" subsided, I did this per your request from those earlier pages.  The "Thanks" actually goes out to you MN74.  I'll post some other weird variations if you want to see them.  Believe me when I say it only gets worse and more confusing. 

On the other hand, I can show you what I believe represents the actual "protocol" for the Assembly Line vehicles and what was used for the majority of 99.5% of the production cars.  I also have History for many vehicles that used a Typed Font and the "one of a kind" circumstance that dictated the car be removed from the line and the Typed decal be used in place of the Assembly Line version.   

LOL, I was always settled.  Your welcome for my help! 

"protocol" Now that is an interesting term indeed!  Must be deja vu, I was having a similar conversation this evening about "protocols", lol

Those examples as I said earlier displayed some great variations that I enjoyed to see.

However, maybe you can ask "OP" or the other guys if they want more examples.

[resq302]

Dave, looks like you have won a lot of people over with the information you have posted here.   

[ECS]

One thing I noticed on the door VIN decal was the month was denoted as "2 - 70".....every door decal I have for a 70 Charger for February 1970 was denoted with "2 - 1970". This format appears to remain until mid-March at which point the format changed to the "3 - 70" format. ECS may have thoughts on this.

1. ECS claimed the 1970 model year door vin decal remained a four digit year format (1970) until Mid-March when it changed to two-digit year format (70).  

From: http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Number=5624254
#5683285 - Tue Dec 22 2009 10:05 AM

In mid March of the 1970 model year, they further condensed the data entries by eliminating the first two digits of the year.  Instead of 1970 the date simply became 70.  
DW

2.  Since the (1970) format remained in place until Mid-March what does that say regarding authenticity of the (70) format Vin Decal on this car?  

3. The "1970 Charger Registry" also verified the (1970) format was in place until mid-March when it finally changed to the (70) year format.

I agree let's stay on track and clear up some of the wrong information that was expressed at the beginning of this thread.  Like I said earlier I am the one who came up with the March 10th 1970 date as the change in digits throughout the manufacturing Facilities.  I still stand by the information I said then as a means of helping people who DO NOT HAVE AN ORIGINAL TO FORMAT FROM.  It is simply a default time factor to use when unsure for what to reference. 

I already knew about these ODD variations when I came up with the speculation about the March 10, 1970 change in date digits.  With that said, would anyone else care to explain why these 2 examples (below) completely trump the "accepted view" that any decal made prior to March 10, 1970, ALWAYS used a 4 digit decade date?

[nvrbdn]

my only guess would be in 69 they allowed "bring your kid to work day". well the boy sat down and dad said "go ahead and make some decals son". after he made a few, one of the guys on the line noticed that the date had been shortened. he turned it in to management. 3 1/2 months later as management realized the time the kid saved making the date shorter, mandated everyone to shorten the date to save time.

[nvrbdn]

the last two examples are from Canadian built cars. why would they install a decal for U.S. requirements? wouldn't Chrysler of Canada  only apply the Federal door sticker on vehicles that were built for U.S. ?

I don't know why else would they would put them on?  Both of those two Demons were built at Windsor, Ontario (R) in VIN.

Maybe those two Demons were made for US market and they received the labels?   Who knows....that's very odd since A-bodies were also being built at U.S. plants...Hamtramck, St. Louis, and L.A.

[ECS]

I don't know why else would they would put them on?

In the 12 years (plus) that I have been manufacturing Classic Chrysler VIN Decals, those are the only two that I have ever documented out of the thousands I have reproduced.  ALL of the HUNDREDS that I have done from the Windsor Canada Plant had the "typical" 4 digit year code that most of us are familiar with.  I didn't come across these until I had been reproducing them for about 4 years and had probably done at least 900 at that time.  

Some here talk about having less than 200 samples and try to formulate a definitive conclusion from such a VERY small sample size.  That's like saying you know almost everything about the Ocean's characteristics based on the thimble full of water you collected from it!  I am sure that there are MANY more out there that I do not know about and I'm sure I haven't seen the last of an "odd" example that's out there somewhere .  

Of the THOUSANDS I have made for the Classic Chrysler Industry, the decal below is the ONLY ONE I have ever documented like it.  What was an LA built Cuda doing wearing a TRUCK VIN Label that did not exhibit the Chrysler Corporation wording or the Pentastar?  That particular example is the type of 'incomplete" VIN Label that was used for a Truck that was shipped to another Company to have a special "BED" installed or some other unique conversion.  When you're dealing with tens of thousands of cars, even having a sample size of more than 2000 is hardly enough to formulate "ABSOLUTE" conclusions about the variations you are trying to document.

[moparnation74]

Great examples of other model lines showing many variations at the individual Chrysler plants.  Since the original topic pertained to chargers and this is a charger forum.  Do you have any examples of both early, mid and late versions?  Daytona's excluded.

[ECS]

Great examples of other model lines showing many variations at the individual Chrysler plants.  Since the original topic pertained to chargers and this is a charger forum.  Do you have any examples of both early, mid and late versions?

I'm sure I have a large number of Chargers mixed in the thousands of examples I have boxed up at my office.  I can assure you that the "Chargers" will have similar oddities that will show up if those examples are researched.  One would be naive to think that "Chargers" were the only Chrysler vehicles where the Employees used special discretion in making sure that odd variations never occurred while processing their data.  The VIN information/numbers were entered via Computer in an office setting.  The person typing/entering the information did not see the vehicles that they were processing.  They were entering vehicle VIN information based on Sales Orders that were received from the various Dealerships.  Chargers were just another style of vehicle coming down the Assembly Line and had no special build process over the other cars that were being manufactured.

[ECS]

This is a charger thread.  With a topic that expressed clearly well, What the topic was about.

For the record, this thread was originally started by your buddy tufcat about the Green Charger with my "fake" VIN decal and why it was "incorrectly" made with a 2 digit 70 year date instead of the 4 digit 1970 date.  Your "Witch Hunt" was ultimately cleaned up by the Moderators.  Nice to see how you try to spin the facts and act like you have an Interest in finding Chrager VIN information when your original intent was on proving me wrong.  Sorry but you didn't and NEVER will.

[nvrbdn]

I think that you "ECS" were brought into this conversation because you may just have the largest collection of tag history. So if this is the fact, then you may have been the person that could have answered the original question (and please correct me if I am wrong) when was the change, and then, were there variations of the decal before that date and after that date where someone entered the information differently than what was asked of them to do. Now I am in agreement that being the human factor, and with proof that it did happen at other plants with other models including Canada, then it could very well have happened in St. Louis with the charger. So that being said, do we have any examples of this being done on a 70 dodge charger?

[ECS]

I think that you "ECS" were brought into this conversation because you may just have the largest collection of tag history.

I'm an positive that I have the largest collection but never sorted them to accommodate any particular year, Assembly Plant or vehicle.  I have boxes that are full of random decals in the way they were ordered since 2002.  Anyone can post a picture of a "protocol" decal that even an amateur knows was correct!  The information being sought here (so I thought) was about those Charger vehicles that didn't follow "normal" processed protocol VIN print.  It's a riot to read that I'M the one that has been posting worthless information!    That's all these naysayers can do!  They offer NOTHING themselves and then disparage the PROOF that illustrates how Chrysler VIN Decals had discrepancies for every make, model and year.

What I will do on Monday is post a photo of the boxes of VIN documentation I have so you can understand the astronomical effort it would take to find these RARE examples that certainly exist.  Anyone here is more than welcome to visit my Company for whatever time it takes to filter through all of the examples I have accumulated over the past 12+ years.  I am POSITIVE you will find a few "odd" printed variations for a 1970 Dodge Charger.  Both before the March 10th date and after.  It may take you a few days or weeks, so be ready to also make Hotel reservations to accommodate your stay!  

[nvrbdn]

I think that you "ECS" were brought into this conversation because you may just have the largest collection of tag history.

I'm an positive that I have the largest collection but never sorted them to accommodate any particular year, Assembly Plant or vehicle.  I have boxes that are full of random decals in the way they were ordered since 2002.  Anyone can post a picture of a "protocol" decal that even an amateur knows was correct!  The information being sought here (so I thought) was about those Charger vehicles that didn't follow "normal" processed protocol VIN print.  It's a riot to read that I'M the one that has been posting worthless information!    That's all these naysayers can do!  They offer NOTHING themselves and then disparage the PROOF that illustrates how Chrysler VIN Decals had discrepancies for every make, model and year.

What I will do on Monday is post a photo of the boxes of VIN documentation I have so you can understand the astronomical effort it would take to find these RARE examples that certainly exist.  Anyone here is more than welcome to visit my Company for whatever time it takes to filter through all of the examples I have accumulated over the past 12+ years.  I am POSITIVE you will find a few "odd" printed variations for a 1970 Dodge Charger.  Both before the March 10th date and after.  It may take you a few days or weeks, so be ready to also make Hotel reservations to accommodate your stay!  

 too bad I didn't have this conversation and offer earlier in the year. the weather is finally breaking so I can be outside. and I am so frigging close that I could drive over and rifle through a few boxes. I am assuming that Don wants examples for the 70 registry. I also think that being winter, this was a very enlightening topic. its another "ma mopar" thing. so if it were successful to locate a couple examples for Don, I would indeed aid in the search for the decals.

[moparnation74]

I think that you "ECS" were brought into this conversation because you may just have the largest collection of tag history.

I'm an positive that I have the largest collection but never sorted them to accommodate any particular year, Assembly Plant or vehicle.  I have boxes that are full of random decals in the way they were ordered since 2002.  Anyone can post a picture of a "protocol" decal that even an amateur knows was correct!  The information being sought here (so I thought) was about those Charger vehicles that didn't follow "normal" processed protocol VIN print.  It's a riot to read that I'M the one that has been posting worthless information!    That's all these naysayers can do!  They offer NOTHING themselves and then disparage the PROOF that illustrates how Chrysler VIN Decals had discrepancies for every make, model and year.

What I will do on Monday is post a photo of the boxes of VIN documentation I have so you can understand the astronomical effort it would take to find these RARE examples that certainly exist.  Anyone here is more than welcome to visit my Company for whatever time it takes to filter through all of the examples I have accumulated over the past 12+ years.  I am POSITIVE you will find a few "odd" printed variations for a 1970 Dodge Charger.  Both before the March 10th date and after.  It may take you a few days or weeks, so be ready to also make Hotel reservations to accommodate your stay!  

 too bad I didn't have this conversation and offer earlier in the year. the weather is finally breaking so I can be outside. and I am so frigging close that I could drive over and rifle through a few boxes. I am assuming that Don wants examples for the 70 registry. I also think that being winter, this was a very enlightening topic. its another "ma mopar" thing. so if it were successful to locate a couple examples for Don, I would indeed aid in the search for the decals.

EXACTLY!