ATF wants to ban 223 AP ammo

[WINGMAN]

  Well gun folks. The new anti gun talk is the ATF wants to ban 223 Armor piercing ammo like SS109 or M855 green tip. There is already a run on the stuff and will hit a dollar a round soon .If you want some better get it now. (Wingman)

[TUFCAT]

sounds like a major investment opportunity for the person who wants protection.

But the major concern right now is for our police officers.  Hence the ban.

[redmist]

sounds like a major investment opportunity for the person who wants protection.

But the major concern right now is for our police officers.  Hence the ban.

Ehhh...

No....

SS109 will not defeat body armor. It was designed to accommodate the lack of velocity out of the shorter platforms being fielded today (MK18 Mod 0 and 1) With lack of velocity out of these shorter barrels, you would not get proper fragmentation out of the XM193 ammunition. M855 was developed with a 62 grain bullet, and a small steel insert to try and gain some damaging performance back for the lack of velocity. It actually performs more poorly against an armored target than standard XM193.

This is feel good crap pushed by people who know less than zero about the ammunition, or the application of it.

M855 was not the best performing ammo, but it was readily available, so it must be taken from you.

All my cop friends are pissed this is happening, as they should be.

[TUFCAT]

I feel good as long as our cops are protected.  

[redmist]

Our cops are more protected than anyone who is not a cop... It's been that way for a long long looooooonnnngggg!!!! time! 

Cops should be protecting our rights just as much as any other civilian. "Banning" inanimate objects to protect a specific title of people is not how this is suppose to work.

[twodko]

True that. Everything has been spinning out of common sense for
quite a while now. 

[Mike DC]

   
A huge percentage of the country is in favor of these kinds of bans.  We're doing it to ourselves.

[dyslexic teddybear]

   
A huge percentage of the country is in favor of these kinds of bans.  We're doing it to ourselves.

Some polls have showed that......and most often that's because the questions are asked in a manor to get the result desired.

I believe if the percentage is as huge as those with an agenda would like believed....it would have already happened by now.

[myk]

I feel good as long as our cops are protected.  

Do you honestly believe that even if ALL guns and bullets were banned tomorrow that cops would become "safe?"  That belief is the product of emotionally charged fantasy; criminals will kill cops with clubs, cars, rocks, bare hands, whatever; that's why they're criminals, and they will do as they will regardless of what the "law" says, and regardless of what they can buy off of store shelves.

Now instead of worthless "feel good" measures that will solve nothing, let's discuss facts:  The vast majority of gun crimes are committed by handguns and pistols, and to a lesser extent shotguns, not civilian based semi-automatic rifles, or as the ignorant American would call it, an ASSAULT RIFLE.  A cop or a civilian is more likely to be killed by a drunk driver or medical malpractice than by a firearm of ANY kind, and this is information that was compiled and verified by the government's own FBI.  

All this ban will do is further encroach on the 2nd Amendment rights of every law-abiding citizen in America.  This will not keep cops or anyone else safe, since criminals will continue to procure their weapons, bullets, drugs, women, whatever, through illegal channels that are beyond the scope of the law.  Keeping Americans from their constitutional right to obtain firearms and ammunition will not keep anyone safe, rather, it just makes it easier for criminals to pick on the defenseless who ironically are obeying the laws that criminals are ignoring...

[Todd Wilson]

 

[stripedelete]

I hear the NAW (National Association of Woodchucks) is pushing a ban on all 223.

[dyslexic teddybear]

I feel good as long as our cops are protected.  

Do you honestly believe that even if ALL guns and bullets were banned tomorrow that cops would become "safe?"  That belief is the product of emotionally charged fantasy; criminals will kill cops with clubs, cars, rocks, bare hands, whatever; that's why they're criminals, and they will do as they will regardless of what the "law" says, and regardless of what they can buy off of store shelves.

Now instead of worthless "feel good" measures that will solve nothing, let's discuss facts:  The vast majority of gun crimes are committed by handguns and pistols, and to a lesser extent shotguns, not civilian based semi-automatic rifles, or as the ignorant American would call it, an ASSAULT RIFLE.  A cop or a civilian is more likely to be killed by a drunk driver or medical malpractice than by a firearm of ANY kind, and this is information that was compiled and verified by the government's own FBI.  

All this ban will do is further encroach on the 2nd Amendment rights of every law-abiding citizen in America.  This will not keep cops or anyone else safe, since criminals will continue to procure their weapons, bullets, drugs, women, whatever, through illegal channels that are beyond the scope of the law.  Keeping Americans from their constitutional right to obtain firearms and ammunition will not keep anyone safe, rather, it just makes it easier for criminals to pick on the defenseless who ironically are obeying the laws that criminals are ignoring...

Well put.

I'm all for a rational, factual discussion......and that's the opposite of a political discussion.

[twodko]

Myk,

Can you tell me a bit more about this procurement of women thing?
Sound like it migh easier than the process status quo. 

[TUFCAT]

Our cops are more protected than anyone who is not a cop... It's been that way for a long long looooooonnnngggg!!!! time!  

Cops should be protecting our rights just as much as any other civilian. "Banning" inanimate objects to protect a specific title of people is not how this is suppose to work.

"AP" means Armour Piercing.  

Hopefully technology used to protect our police officers has changed in recent years (for the better) because these bullets have been known to penetrate typical bullet proof vests worn by law enforcement.  

I realize the "bad guys" will also have the baddest bullets... with that being said, Police officers deserve necessary protection from military grade ammunition.

[el dub]

If the ATF wants to ban, they're going to. What can you do? Reload. that's it

[ACUDANUT]

So this SS109 ammo works best for longer barrels ? 

[redmist]

No, M855 works like crap in just about everything. And no... it doesn't defeat armor any better than anything else out there. It was simply made as an additional option for those shooting ammunition out of short barreled rifles. A standard XM193 will penetrate armor out of a barrel that will give it the velocity to do such.

"Armor Piercing" does not have to "Pierce armor" in any form or fashion to fall under the definition of armor piercing.

18 U.S.C., § 921(a)(17)(B)

A projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

A full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.


Mike, you are way wrong if you think "The majority of the country" wants these bans. That's simply not the case, I am sorry. The majority of the country doesn't even have the information to make an informed decision on this ammunition. It's simply put as "armor piercing" and for the children, because cops, and also think of the animals! and all the mouth breathers eat it up.

[redmist]

   
A huge percentage of the country is in favor of these kinds of bans.  We're doing it to ourselves.

Some polls have showed that......and most often that's because the questions are asked in a manor to get the result desired.

I believe if the percentage is as huge as those with an agenda would like believed....it would have already happened by now.

Poll question: Do you support the limiting, and or banning of deadly high grade military assault armor piercing rounds, to protect cops, children, and yourself from death around every corner?

Mouth Breather:  What?? Hell yes I do!!!  Ban all the things!



Poll question: Do you support the reclassification of XM855 green tip as defined under 18 U.S.C., § 921(a)(17)(B) based solely on the arbitrary composition of the round, and not it's actual performance as a viable armor defeating projectile, thus banning it from sportsman, hunters, target shooters, competition shooters??

Mouth Breather: What??  I like turtles. Whats an XM855?

[twodko]

Hey, I'm a mouth breather.  Allergies play hell with my nose. 

I also have a sufficient array of weapons, ammo and experience.

What makes me truly dangerous and a threat to society is........

I own a MOPAR! 

[twodko]

¥£€

[redmist]

Here.....


Watch this.

It explains exactly what I am getting at 100%

The banned ammo is LESS of a threat than standard 55 grain ammo out of the same gun on an AR500 plate.

The banning of green tip is nothing more than the ATF trying it's best to make it harder for you and me to shoot. Nothing more. I guarantee the ATF is fully aware of how M855 performs as shown in the video.

"Always think forfeiture."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMYkEMhPsO8

[el dub]

Once something is taken away, you don't get it back. That's why gun nuts vote no on everything. For a good reason. 

[dyslexic teddybear]

 


It's always one step at a time "for the children".



No one for increasing restrictions.......can ever explain how more laws and restrictions affect those that ignore laws and restrictions.

[TUFCAT]

.....can ever explain how more laws and restrictions affect those that ignore laws and restrictions.

Absolutely.  A "ban" would only limit legal sales....which has absolutely zero effect on criminals obtaining or possessing this stuff.

[TUFCAT]

Here's an effective weapon...

[Mike DC]

Mike, you are way wrong if you think "The majority of the country" wants these bans. That's simply not the case, I am sorry. The majority of the country doesn't even have the information to make an informed decision on this ammunition. It's simply put as "armor piercing" and for the children, because cops, and also think of the animals! and all the mouth breathers eat it up.

As you say, the majority of the country doesn't even have the info to make an informed decision.  

But uninformed voters still affect polls & cast votes.  That causes us to do a lot of this stuff to ourselves.  

There are millions of people ready to side against anything called "armor piercing ammo".  Maybe the majority, maybe not, but that doesn't really matter.  What matters is there are enough of them to get a ban through. 

[ACUDANUT]

Good video, the green tip AP round really was not a AP round after all.  But the standard FMJ was. ?

[el dub]

Here's an effective weapon...

Calif. needs lots of those.

[RECHRGD]

And I still can't even find 22LR ammo..........

[bordin34]

M855 is approaching $0.75-$1 per round at gun shows now. My AR likes its steel case Tulammo anyway.

[John_Kunkel]

The ATF takes its marching orders from the HMFIC and his "ban all things relating to firearms" agenda is well known.

[thedodgeboys]

I think it's an excuse to get the cheap stuff out of the stores...

[greenpigs]

   
A huge percentage of the country is in favor of these kinds of bans.  We're doing it to ourselves.

Not this guy, and i don't even own anything that uses that round.

[bordin34]

I may have just bought 600 rounds of ss109/m855 for $10/30 at walmart.

[thedodgeboys]

This video starts out a little goofy but gets informative about 2 mn into it that explains what the rounds really are.

http://youtu.be/ikyzhv894N0

[Tilar]

I feel good as long as our cops are protected. 

When seconds matter the cops are only minutes away.  I'll hang onto my guns and ammo.

   
A huge percentage of the country is in favor of these kinds of bans.  We're doing it to ourselves.

Sorry Mike but the vocal minority are the ones that want it banned, the majority of the country want the commies to leave our guns and ammo alone.

[Mike DC]

 
It doesn't need to be the majority of the country in agreement just to get something banned.   This isn't a democracy. 

[Chargerguy74]

This is just the beginning of the disarming of America. We're seeing reclassifications of semi auto rifles in Canada, prohibiting many rifles, as well as the RCMP firearms lab stalling on assigning FRT numbers for new centre fire semi autos.

[polywideblock]

take a look at what they have done to the Australian people       

      they are even trying to ban swords and machete's now "for our own good", only a matter of time before bows are outlawed as well 

               question is why in these times of  world wide unrest ,  are our(western) governments trying to disarm us and  turn us into victims     

[Chargerguy74]

Why? Because something major is coming down the pipe. And it ain't going to be pretty.

[polywideblock]

who's pipe is it coming down but ? every time I examine this I see our own governments moving to take "COMPLETE" control  of "US"   

[el dub]

I don't see a pipe. I believe there are too many gun owners out there to let anything happen. Political or otherwise. A lot of pols, dems and republicans, have guns and want to keep them. Of all the pols out there, only so many are in charge..The rest want to keep their guns also.The second ammendment is in place. But hey, let it come down the pike. I'm ready for some change.

[WINGMAN]

  The next item on the ATF list will be 80% AR 15 lowers. I am a FFL and watch this stuff vary close. Also the next big elections are less than two years off and H Clinton will make gun owners vary uneasy when she throws her name into the hat. Just like when Obama ran there will be panic buying.  I WILL happen  (Wingman)   Jay.

[Chargerguy74]

I'm talking more tinfoil and big picture. Economic collapse, world war, etc.

[redmist]

  The next item on the ATF list will be 80% AR 15 lowers. I am a FFL and watch this stuff vary close. Also the next big elections are less than two years off and H Clinton will make gun owners vary uneasy when she throws her name into the hat. Just like when Obama ran there will be panic buying.  I WILL happen  (Wingman)   Jay.

Nah, they are already after the 80% stuff... Look at Ares Armor for that example. the next move will be to ban lead core ammo under EPA rules.

[twodko]

My questions starkly parallel Poly's concerns. The last thing I want to do
is kill someone. Granted there are some who a life has been wasted on
and truly deserve to be killed off for the good of society.
What are our governments thinking in terms of disarming us?
I can only suspect that they simply bend
to their constituents and financial backers whims despite the reality of
how they cast their votes in congress, senate, house of commons etc.
What else could it be?
If there is any bad juju coming down the pipe it will mean the end of
civilization as we know it. The 2nd amendment that I support with my
life was written in a time far different than now.
Frankly gentleman, we wouldn't stand a chance against the forces that would be
brought to bear against any national "insurrections" the populace might mount
when we've finally had enough. It's not just our governments we would face, we would/will
have fight the true "powers that be". Corporate America/UK/Australia/Canada/Japan et al.
Where the money is lies the power and force.
People speak laughingly yet with underlying uncertainty and fear about a "global"
government and the security force necessary to enforce such rule but think about
it.
There will come a time when the world population will be under sino-islamic-northamerican control.
Somebody in the Mid East is going to light the fuse and begin the cascade of such events.
Those left standing will be what's left of north America, China, sub Saharan Africa, east Asia and the
Middle East. From that will come of that will be a global government. It's the only possible way we will
keep from perpetrating an extinction level event on ourselves. I fear this and may quite possibly
see this happening in the last years of my life.
Humans have become an infestation on this planet. The only way to survive and not kill our planet, and we are
talking about our very existence, is by way of a harsh global governing entity of some sort.
It's also quite possible that the elite have a plan to de-planet and colonize some other unsuspecting
planet and let the rest of us rot. It sounds far fetched and 5150 but.........
On these happy thoughts I'll stop jabbering away. 

[Lord Warlock]

We are pretty much past the extinction level event at this point.  The flash point is in the middle east, and someone there WILL use a nuke in the future, and the world powers will respond in kind and there will be no more middle...middle east. But it will not be the Mutual Assured Destruction I lived under in the 80s when I had my fingers on the launch keys to 20 ICBM Nukes.  (8 alerts a month) Even now half of our arsenal is now gone, and the missiles I was in control of are disassembled and stored or destroyed.  Still have plenty if Iran decides to get balsy and act too big for their turbans. Same with N. Korea.

Anyway, the guy that said a large percentage wants gun or ammo bans is mistaken, that number is more than likely less than 10% of the nation, trying to impose their will by taking away the freedoms of the rest of us.  As far as this particular ammo goes, it doesn't impact me, but I disagree with it, and would vote against it because it was being done for the wrong reason and not by a majority of the population.  When a true representation of more than 50% of our nation elects to ban guns will be the day I accept it, I won't abide by it, but I'll accept it.  When I see that coming close, I'll buy a reloader and plenty of brass and supplies to reload my own. Until then I'll maintain the small inventory I keep for home protection.  I don't need much, I'll drop any intruder in two or three shots. And not feel bad afterwards either.  I got past that feeling when I agreed to launch nukes on the world and kill millions at a time.

[Mike DC]

Meh.  

The last 70 years have demonstrated that people are a lot more reluctant to nuke each other than we give ourselves credit for.  With all due respect to the threat of a nuclear WWIII, the whole thing is just not as militarily useful as we tend to think.  It was possible to destroy whole cities before nukes, it just took more effort.  It has never been the most effective way to defeat an enemy overall.  And the international repercussions would be serious enough to concern anyone, including Putin or the Chinese govt.  

Even terrorist groups would rather behead individuals than delete whole cities.  I think the terrorist groups decided years ago that 9/11 was too big of a provocation.  15yo virgin boys love to die for causes but the grown men in charge do not.  Osama didn't die wearing a bomb or even up in the mountains.  He got shot inside a nice urban house.  

And unlike during the Cuban missile crisis, today one nuke explosion does not automatically guarantee a lot more most follow.      



As for govts taking guns, that is just what they do.  Out-of-control govts take everything they can from the citizens.  Money, power, rights, property, etc.  Its standard practice.  There doesn't need to be any larger plan behind it.    

[el dub]

Well I don't understand some of the things you said. Like, It has never been the most effective way to defeat an enemy overall. Maybe tell me how we won WW2. Seemed real effective to me and the rest of the United States. And the terrorists groups, Even terrorist groups would rather behead individuals than delete whole cities. Beheading people is normal to these guys. I sure hope not to see the day if any of them do get their hands on a nuclear device. And you better hope so also.
         BTW I missed the nuclear blast during the Cuban missle crisis. what are you meaning here?   No one is going to take any guns away from any americans due to the second amendment. Our govt. is not out of control. 
              Would you give your gun up if they came to take it?

[Mike DC]

  
The A-bombs played a role in hastening the surrender of Japan in 1945.  But IMO that role has gotten overblown a bit.  They also surrendered because Russia turned against them at that same time, and a good case can be made that Russia had more to do with it.  The advent of firebombing cities at the end of WWII was basically just as bad as the early Atomic bombs.  We had already obliterated Tokyo by firebombing and Japan didn't respond by surrendering.    

Look at the Civil War here at home - General Sherman's march to the sea was demolishing a bunch of Southern territory and it didn't make the South want to surrender.  Only military defeat did that.  There are other cases in history suggesting the same thing.  Destroying a city pisses off your enemy.  It may hurt their resources.  But it won't make them stick up a white flag by itself.  Countries keep fighting until their military options are exhausted.  

 
Beheading people is normal for terrorists.  That proves they are evil but it doesn't prove they are illogical or stupid.  The people in charge of those organizations recruit enthusiastic teenagers with nothing to lose to do their dirty work.  But if you offer the terrorist bigwigs a course of action that guarantees they will all get blown off the map right away?  The bigwigs probably won't take it.  The teenagers have the death wishes, not so much the men in charge.


The Cuban Missile Crisis was a very close call with no nukes going off.  But in that case if the first one had gone off, it would have been a full-on nuclear war between USA & USSR.  Dozens of nukes all over the map going off.  But if one rogue terrorist group nukes somebody today, it is not automatically going to cause the same cascade of nukes falling all over several continents in the next 20 minutes.  

[twodko]

That was a very succinct synopsis of the events you addressed Mike.

I believe Israel will be the country to launch a nuclear weapon
in the Mid East. We give them billions each year in aid and they
use the US to support their grievances against other countries - Iran.
Israel also continues to play the holocaust "guilt" card against the world.
This has gotten old and countries are tired of it.

The group(s) who lights off a rogue nuke is anyone's guess. 

[polywideblock]

now if Ronald was still in charge   

[ACUDANUT]

now if Ronald was still in charge   

Ronald McDonald ?   

[polywideblock]

 how many years did  Gadhafi spend    ducking  every time   he heard a low flying anything   

[twodko]

And Mother Teresa! Hahahahah

[Ponch ®]

Typical responder in these threads: "These useless feel good measures are an encroachment by the government and lawmakers which takes away the rights of law abiding individuals to engage in activities that, while not appealing to every one, are not harming anyone or will work to end crime and violence"

Same typical responder, in a different thread: "I think the government should step in and ban rap and put kids that wear pants below their waist in jail...banning those things will significantly reduce criminal activity"

[twodko]

Hands up - don't shoot.        BS, don't be a thug and criminal and you won't get greased.

How about.....

PANTS UP - DON'T LOOT!

[Ponch ®]

Hands up - don't shoot.        BS, don't be a thug and criminal and you won't get greased.

How about.....

PANTS UP - DON'T LOOT!

yeah but who is a "thug"? How do you know? I mean, I wear   nice starched shirts and a tie to work everyday, Im Mr Respectable Future Lawyer.  But if im running to the grocerry store and I throw on a black t shirt and my Raiders hat...does it mean that if someone thinks im a thug its ok for them to shoot me?

[Mike DC]

yeah but who is a "thug"? How do you know? I mean, I wear   nice starched shirts and a tie to work everyday, Im Mr Respectable Future Lawyer.  But if im running to the grocerry store and I throw on a black t shirt and my Raiders hat...does it mean that if someone thinks im a thug its ok for them to shoot me?

Depends.  Are we talking about before or after they get a positive I.D. on you?    

[el dub]

I like pants down, tits up.

[el dub]

Hands up - don't shoot.        BS, don't be a thug and criminal and you won't get greased.

How about.....

PANTS UP - DON'T LOOT!

yeah but who is a "thug"? How do you know? I mean, I wear   nice starched shirts and a tie to work everyday, Im Mr Respectable Future Lawyer.  But if im running to the grocerry store and I throw on a black t shirt and my Raiders hat...does it mean that if someone thinks im a thug its ok for them to shoot me?

You forgot to mention if your pants were hanging down or not...no you should not be shot.
           
      In my town, all the bangers wear bulldogs hats and shirts. And Raider hats and shirts. That is from the college team, The Fresno State Bulldogs. And if they are not wearing that they would be wearing raiders stuff.Every one with a brain knows these guys are not going to Fresno State.  And not only that, they all seem to have pit bulls for pets.
      So who is a thug. to me a person with pants hanging down. Tattoos all over the place. No job. On welfare. Doper. A person whose looks scream, LOSER. Who lives at home with mom. Or lives with their old lady  and four kids. But they may not be thugs, just look alikes, wannabees
    The cops like it though as its easy to do some racial profiling

[twodko]

I like pants down, tits up.

Only if it's a woman. 

Of course clothes, demeanor or even where you chill in your town
doesn't mean you deserve to get smoke checked.

However, if a person decides they aren't going to comply
with a cop's instructions, fight them or go attempt to grab a LEO's weapon then
yeah, they will get shot and rightly so.
If the person dies as a result of getting shot.....they killed themselves.

IMO f**kem'.

[greenpigs]

Got an email from the NRA stating that it has been tuned down, for now at least.

I am thinking of getting a nice sword....a functional one not a 29.99 wall hanger.

[polywideblock]

might I suggest one of these  instead     
                                     

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/181674078611?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

                                                     

[wingcar]

That would hurt......................

[flyinlow]

Wow this is better than the History Channel!     

I think the ban plan has been dropped by the ATF , due to Grass root and Congressional pressure... At least for now.