What to do?

[lloyd3]

To keep original or to replace original with modern components? Something I've fought with ever since I got this old relic some 20-years ago now.  Some of the original components are getting a little long in the tooth and drivability is starting to suffer.  I'm forced to consider buying a "new" replacement carb or to rebuild the original Carter yet again.  I've read up on the options and I'm torn.  What I really need is a NOS 4428s AVS but.....none are available, certainly not for anything reasonable.  I will likely attempt to rebuild this one again using a modern kit that will, hopefully, deal better with the modern fuels we all must use, and also re-bush the throttle shafts. Just how many times you can "rebuild" a carb is the question.  Nostalgia is largely why I'm drawn to these cars. I love the time warp effect it creates for me. No question, the modern stuff is now faster (and safer, and more comfortable, etc.) but that's not what I like. Does using "modern" replacement parts ruin the effect?

[Daytona R/T SE]

I'd consider having your original carb professionally restored.

Check this guy out:

http://harmsauto.com/

[John_Kunkel]

  Nice thing about a Scott Smith restoration is he runs the completed carb on a mule engine.

[lloyd3]

His price tag is ~$400, which isn't bad when you consider replacements are almost non-existent. I've also got a line on a 4429 carb which is the 1968 automatic transmission version. I assume that most of the parts are interchangeable?

[fy469rtse]

Is it a matching numbers rt, ?
By all means yes restore carb, but a modern edelbrock will run well straight out of the box,
Same carburettor, just different name and a few small changes,
Will connect much the same, you would just need an extra linkage attachment available from edelbrock also
All easily fitted
Put the restored numbers matching numbers carb away, and use the new which won't matter when it wears out,
Probably in ten to twenty years ,
Just an option 

[myk]

Muscle cars are named so because of their looks, sound and feel.  Modern technology infused into these rusting shells will not detract from any of those aforementioned attributes.  If anything, it may even enhance those things...

[bill440rt]

A real, all numbers matching car? 
My tendency would be to leave it alone, aka stock. They are far & few between.

Want to play around with the modern stuff? Just get another one! 

[charger_fan_4ever]

I'm all about reliability. Holley mechanical carb super simple easy to tune. A vacuum guage so you can determine the right size power valve a screw driver and done.

[lloyd3]

This car is an original color, originally equipped R/T 440 4-speed (XS29L8B4....). It is not numbers matching, but over it's now 47-year lifespan, it has been maintained with parts that have closely matched with it came with originally (the current 18-spline came out of a '70). To my knowledge, I am the 5th owner, and I have tried to continue that effort in my time with it. I looked closely at other carburetor options and what I found didn't match the specifications of the original equipment. Depending on who you read, the original Carters were either 750 or 800 CFM. What I was finding from Edelbrock was (I believe) only 650 CFM. Not that the smaller flow rate would make any real difference in the way it's driven, it just wouldn't be the same. I strive to keep it as original as possible. It's a nice-enough car to make that a practical option.  Disc brakes would be nice, a modern radio would be nice, a 5-speed overdrive would be nice, bigger tires would be nice, etc., but.....it would be a different car then, at least in my eyes.  The "time-machine" effect would be lost, at least for me.

[bill440rt]

I strive to keep it as original as possible. It's a nice-enough car to make that a practical option.  Disc brakes would be nice, a modern radio would be nice, a 5-speed overdrive would be nice, bigger tires would be nice, etc., but.....it would be a different car then, at least in my eyes.  The "time-machine" effect would be lost, at least for me.

I think you just answered your own question. Nothing wrong with that either, not one bit. 

[RallyeMike]

To keep original or to replace original with modern components? ...........  Nostalgia is largely why I'm drawn to these cars. I love the time warp effect it creates for me.

Muscle cars are named so because of their looks, sound and feel.  Modern technology infused into these rusting shells will not detract from any of those aforementioned attributes.  If anything, it may even enhance those things...

This is kind of the typical younger guys viewpoint because they never had the chance to drive a classic Charger when it was a modern car. The answer to your question in my opinion is YES, when you start changing out stock components the nostalgic feel "time warp" of driving these cars starts to slip away. The familiar sound of a stock starter, the feel of 78, 70, or 60 series tires (depending on what time you are warping to), the gulping roar of thermoquad secondaries...... etc. are meaningful. Upgrading to a mini starter, rubber band tires, and a modern carb may improve some aspects, but the nostalgic feel is quickly destroyed. Where you draw the line between the value of upgrades and the loss of nostalgia is up to the individual. You can alwasy try ans upgrade and go back if you are not happy with it.

[Ghoste]

Exactly 100% Mike!  And as a lot of folks find out, it takes butt loads of money to "infuse" new technology into the older car to make it more familiar to them.

[lloyd3]

The temptation to "upgrade" is constant, because you find yourself comparing everything to the modern cars you normally drive. The temptation gets even greater when everything you need to keep it running and driving normally gets harder (and more expensive) to find.  If I didn't drive it, no problem, as static displays last almost forever. But....I didn't buy it to just look at it. This car was the result of an exhaustive search (both externally and internally). Twenty years ago, this was just another nice, older car. (Back then, the only crazy money cars were the hemi's, the convertibles, and the A-12 cars).  I was determined to get an R/T 4-gear big block because I vividly remember how those cars drove (and handled, and sounded, and even smelled!).  The definition of nostalgia is "whatever was cool when you were 16".  When I was 16, the parking lot of my high school was almost completely filled with musclecars, because they were mostly 10-years old, a little rusty (Pennsylvania loves salt!), and fairly banged-up. The movie
"Dazed & Confused" pretty-well encapsulates both that period of time and the cars that were being driven by my peers. If you didn't live through that period (and many didn't, both literally and figuratively) you wouldn't have that strong connection to a "factory stock" car. 

[moparnation74]

Mine is completely matching numbers and I changed out the original carb with an edlebrock and the firecore rtr distributor.  The original carb and distributor are restored and boxed up in the attic.  That was as far as I would change for reliability and less servicing without sacrificing originality or cutting/changing components.  Reliability is more important than being stranded.  

[myk]

This is kind of the typical younger guys viewpoint because they never had the chance to drive a classic Charger when it was a modern car. The answer to your question in my opinion is YES, when you start changing out stock components the nostalgic feel "time warp" of driving these cars starts to slip away. The familiar sound of a stock starter, the feel of 78, 70, or 60 series tires (depending on what time you are warping to), the gulping roar of thermoquad secondaries...... etc. are meaningful. Upgrading to a mini starter, rubber band tires, and a modern carb may improve some aspects, but the nostalgic feel is quickly destroyed. Where you draw the line between the value of upgrades and the loss of nostalgia is up to the individual. You can alwasy try ans upgrade and go back if you are not happy with it.

With all due respect, when I bought my Charger it was bone stock, with ridiculous 10 inch manual drums, points ignition and everything else.  This was my first car so I didn't have any other driving experience to compare it with-it was as modern to me as it could be.  I drove it EVERY DAY that way through college and realized after all of those years that it was a tiring car to drive as it was.  Modernizing this thing isn't about destroying nostalgia, but BUILDING on it.  I enjoyed my Charger for better or worse, and bolting on newer technology will allow me to experience new memories to add to the old ones I have of driving a classic muscle car during my care-free youth.

Oh and trust me, no matter how much money you spend, how many trick pieces you bolt onto one of these cars it will NEVER feel like a newer car; that comes from personal experience, not opinion.

Finally, do what YOU want to do with YOUR car 'OP.  Maybe you'll keep it stock, maybe you'll try this, that or the other thing.  The sky and your wallet are the only limits...

[el dub]

Muscle cars are named so because of their looks, sound and feel.  Modern technology infused into these rusting shells will not detract from any of those aforementioned attributes.  If anything, it may even enhance those things...

           I don't think so. They were named muscle cars because there was some serious muscle under the hood. In those days there was some serious hot rodding going on. The auto industry came out with these cars to compete on the street. There were only a few things to do in those days and drag racing was one of them. If you noticed the early muscle cars were plain jane  cars with serious muscle under the hoods. Also my cars stopped just fine with drum brakes like all the other cars with drum brakes did. Otherwise they wouldn't have been able to sell them. Just my views. 

[lloyd3]

MYK's right, technology marches on and significant improvements have been made in the last 50-years or so. There's more than enough room here for both the original stuff and the resto-mods. Both are beautiful.  If you're an old dog, the more familiar sights and sounds are what you might expect. Younger guys seem to be looking for some creative enhancements to take advantage of the newer technology. It's all good.

FWIW: I've never been stranded by the factory dual-point in my car. If we ever get an EMP event, my car will be one of the few left still running . Also, drum brakes are fine until they get hot. You can push disc-brakes much harder before they start to fade. If I wasn't such a old codger, I'd put discs on too. As far as tire technology goes, I actually got to drive a very low miles 1970 SE 383 car a few years ago that still had bias-ply tires. It was a hoot!  I got to drive around the same little town that I did as a teenager and on the same type of tires I'd used then. The feel of the car was both  very familiar (and very different!) because of them and I really enjoyed it.  I'd actually consider them if they were still cheap and available in proper sizes and configurations.  Cheap being the effective word here.

[el dub]

MYK's right, technology marches on and significant improvements have been made in the last 50-years or so. There's more than enough room here for both the original stuff and the resto-mods. Both are beautiful.  If you're an old dog, the more familiar sights and sounds are what you might expect. Younger guys seem to be looking for some creative enhancements to take advantage of the newer technology. It's all good.

FWIW: I've never been stranded by the factory dual-point in my car. If we ever get an EMP event, my car will be one of the few left still running . Also, drum brakes are fine until they get hot. You can push disc-brakes much harder before they start to fade. If I wasn't such a old codger, I'd put discs on too. As far as tire technology goes, I actually got to drive a very low miles 1970 SE 383 car a few years ago that still had bias-ply tires. It was a hoot!  I got to drive around the same little town that I did as a teenager and on the same type of tires I'd used then. The feel of the car was both  very familiar (and very different!) because of them and I really enjoyed it.  I'd actually consider them if they were still cheap and available in proper sizes and configurations.  Cheap being the effective word here.

I was just talking about the muscle part of it. I agree with him on the rest. If I had to do it over I would like a modern drive train all the way back to the rear end.

[stripedelete]

I've never been stranded by the factory dual-point in my car. If we ever get an EMP event, my car will be one of the few left still running.

+1

Make sure you stop by after the EMP.  We'll go for a boat ride.

[lloyd3]

Interesting handle, my car was ordered "stripe delete".  What is your boat? The fellow that essentially got me into this car restores Penyan Swifts. His current motor is a 1956 30 HP Merc.

[Mike DC]

Some things are more nostalgic than others. 

Finnicky carb?  Big old-sounding starter?  Small tires?  Yeah. 

But I don't get any warm fuzzies from fading brakes or intermittent electrical problems. 


As for overdrive, you can always turn it off and just run around in the first three gears.  There's no law saying you have to lower the axle gears when you put in an OD.

[moparnation74]

I have Bias ply's on mine along with 11" drum.  It is a joy to drive indeed. 

Curious, was your dual points distributor a factory option for that car?

[RallyeMike]

With all due respect, when I bought my Charger it was bone stock, with ridiculous 10 inch manual drums, points ignition and everything else.  This was my first car so I didn't have any other driving experience to compare it with-it was as modern to me as it could be.  I drove it EVERY DAY that way through college and realized after all of those years that it was a tiring car to drive as it was.  Modernizing this thing isn't about destroying nostalgia, but BUILDING on it.  I enjoyed my Charger for better or worse, and bolting on newer technology will allow me to experience new memories to add to the old ones I have of driving a classic muscle car during my care-free youth.

Oh and trust me, no matter how much money you spend, how many trick pieces you bolt onto one of these cars it will NEVER feel like a newer car; that comes from personal experience, not opinion.

I don't think we are aligned with our view of what nostalgia means    It has nothing to do with "experiencing new memories" due to bolting on new technology. It's all about reliving the old experience. New memories and experiences are tomorrow's nostalgia.

Anyway,..... there was a point in time where we drove these cars and they WERE the modern cars. There was no other option. There was no comparison to understand the limitations of what were then modern brakes, etc. Nobody had an inkling of big wheels, low profile tires, and FI or AC as a standard. Heck, we were all blown away when radial tires came out!    Moving away from stock-type components means losing the character of the car from those nostalgic times..... even as flawed as that character was.

If I want to feel like I'm 17 and driving to high school again, equipping my Charger with modern upgrades does not help that feeling. It diminishes it. Stepping on those drum brakes only to anticipate steering to counter the inevitable pull to one side or the other is actually a nostalgic feeling. Take that away with a modern disc conversion, and part of that feeling is gone. Keep going with other upgrades and you take away a little bit more every time.

Some of my rides are upgraded and I appreciate them too for what they are, but if I want to go back in time, there is no feeling like a ride built like it was "back in the day". That's my feedback to the OP's query , and I'd guess probably 4 outta 5 geezers agree. I think that explains it better    What's the saying.... "You had to be there to understand". Some things just don't translate 

[archie360]

I'm with Mike, if you want to upgrade go for it but it's the nostalgia factor for me.  I'm really not concerned about being the fastest or best handling old car out there, though I do try to super tune my setup.  Like them the way they came for better or worse, sorta like having your own time capsule.  Some period tunes on the radio and I'm good to go.

[stripedelete]

Interesting handle, my car was ordered "stripe delete".  What is your boat? The fellow that essentially got me into this car restores Penyan Swifts. His current motor is a 1956 30 HP Merc.

Ok.  It's not a hijack if the OP asks.  Right?

The previous owner had complemented my R/T emblems with a black bumble bee.  Looked good. But, even in '84, no matter where I went, it was some clowns job to come up to me and point out the stripe was incorrect.
So, when I had to pick a name..........

It's 1968 Lyman, 26' Sleeper.  It's a  "working boat",  but,  with the teak and mahogany, it still steals the show from the go fasters when I tie up at a restaurant.  In 19 years, the points closed up on me once.  It just runs...
I hope I have the same luck with the Charger.

I have never seen a Swift in person.  Our proximity to Lyman factory and Erie knocking the bottom out of everything else, didn't leave our region with much variety. The Swift's ribs and stringers look very Peterborough, while the exterior hull looks cold molded or Wolverine.  With a 30hp?  I bet it flys!

Friends snagged 15' Lyman barn find with a 1953 Mercury Mark 40.  it was not "optioned" with neutral or reverse.  They only ran it once.   Afterwords, it was referred to only as "The Antichrist".