Highly Contested 70 Charger A/C Six Pack Update: 2-28-15 Door Vin Decal Question

[Dodge Don]

While I have no definitive proof my personal opinion is still that this was a car that was originally a U code car and that an error was made at some point where a V replaced the U. I am dubious about the Fender Tag and ECS already pointed out that the door sticker was a repop.

[Sublime/Sixpack]

While I have no definitive proof my personal opinion is still that this was a car that was originally a U code car and that an error was made at some point where a V replaced the U. I am dubious about the Fender Tag and ECS already pointed out that the door sticker was a repop.

I'd have to agree.

[Moparpoolman]

That is abomination.  That is a freak and an embarrassment.  I think that ends the matter right there. 

Once again the unicorn is just a fraud.

They can't open the hood at BJ or they will be laughed out of the place.



Funny how this is not the A/C compressor they claimed to have found in the trunk of the car.

[TUFCAT]

While I have no definitive proof my personal opinion is still that this was a car that was originally a U code car and that an error was made at some point where a V replaced the U. I am dubious about the Fender Tag and ECS already pointed out that the door sticker was a repop.

Plain and simple.  The cowl VIN plate has an engine digit error. This car was definitely built as a 440-4bbl with A/C originally....

Somehow the original order to produce this vehicle passed all the system edits/checks early on and a VIN was assigned to the VON at the plant's computer.  This gave the plant a green light to build this Charger and generate all the necessary paperwork with the (at the time) VIN error.  

In the very early stages of this build (possibly with a partially assembled body-in-white), since air conditioning was ordered these combinations were determined to be unbuildable.

A decision had to be made to keep the line moving.  The original coding error could be easily resolved by using an air-conditioning acceptable 440-4bbl, so the vehicle continued its journey to become an air conditioned Charger R/T 440-automatic with cruise control.

Here's the problem, in those days Chrysler would not have stamped a new VIN plate after the corrections were made.  Several other important pieces of documentation would have been corrected as soon as the change was entered into the system (....more on that story in a second)

All broadcast sheets would be immediately corrected once the "new" engine sales code was entered into the system. Since broadcast sheets were printed at various stations along the line, this information had to be correct.  Once the vehicle reached the final line, it would have assumed its actual build identity per the broadcast sheet. At this time all door jamb MDH labels, EPA engine id labels, window sticker, et all, get printed correctly and the vehicle leaves the plant.

In this case , a beautiful Charger R/T has now been built to the correct Chrysler standard as a 440-44bl according to its broadcast sheet with air conditioning, cruise control, and all other associated records except one thing....the cowl VIN plate.

In an assembly line, components of the assembled body must arrive in sequence at each station at all times.  The sequence number means everything, and is much more important at the plant than the VIN number. The bodies arrive in order based on the sequence number of each car, and are built according to the broadcast sheet.  Even the VIN plate is sequenced for the instrument panel sub assembly station. Completed instrument panels with VIN plates are sent according to sequence number for installation on the trim line.

If by chance, a VIN plate stamping error is noted, its likely way to late in the process to correct.  If already been put into sequencing, it would be difficult if not impossible to pull off the line and correct before it reached instrument panel assembly.... where it would be built to an exact order configuration with all of its correct optional equipment such as the dash cluster, a/c, radio, etc. and put on a sequenced "feeder" line.

Vin stamp errors are seen numerous times in the Mopar world.  Even though the VIN is wrong, the cars were "correctly built" with correct information printed on the build sheet, and door jamb decal.  

By today's standards a VIN-digit error like this wouldn't see daylight outside of the plant without the proper corrections, but back then it wasn't considered necessary to change the VIN plate for a "seemingly minor" engine designation error.

Also keep in mind......this car has a FAKE fender tag and a FAKE door jamb decal! The build sheet is miraculously missing, as well as the original engine and transmission. Conveniently, all of the other items to correctly validate a car are also notably missing.....the only thing you can verify is what's present, and what's missing....there's not even a window sticker, documented owner history, or original photo's to go by.

So my final conclusion (which should go without saying... ) is that this car CANNOT NOT BE VERIFIED as an actual V-code 440 six barrel vehicle built by Chrysler Corporation.  PERIOD.  End of story.  

[Moparpoolman]

A car as rare as they "claim" it to be one would think they would put the correct stripe(V6X longitudinal tape) on the car and the V21 hood treatment back on 

[TUFCAT]

A car as rare as they "claim" it to be one would think they would put the correct stripe(V6X longitudinal tape) on the car and the V21 hood treatment back on  

This guy's a flipper looking to make fast dollars on false car with an amateurish restoration.  As a I've said before...I hate fakes of all sorts. I especially despise people who create/promote fakes to deceive others for profit.  

I hope he loses his Ass at auction....  

[Davtona]

Yes I agree a fake. So what's the guess? What will it go for?

[TUFCAT]

So what's the guess? What will it go for?

That would totally depend on intelligence of the buyer....you should ask for a "smart buyer" price, or a "dumb-ass buyer" price.  

[Ghoste]

And with the alcohol and testosterone flowing at Barrett-Jackson there are a larger number than usual of one of those two groups.

[Davtona]

So what's the guess? What will it go for?

That would totally depend on intelligence of the buyer....you should ask for a "smart buyer" price, or a "dumb-ass buyer" price. 

Either one.

[TUFCAT]

To answer your question...

In my opinion the selling price should be the same as any other 1970 Charger R/T 440-4bbl auto (with air and cruise) in this condition.  No more, no less.

Actually I hope the owner reads this thread, grows a pair, and pulls the car from the auction.

Unfortunately, we know that won't happen.....based on the way he presented at Carlisle with security guard protection like it was one of the three remaining Chrysler gas turbines.

He needs to replace the intake, remove the bogus fender tag and door jamb decal, and sell the car like it was built.  It would still a very nice desirable Charger.

[68X426]

replace the intake, remove the bogus fender tag and door jamb decal, and sell the car like it was built.  It would still a very nice desirable Charger.

Bingo.  Agreed. 

[chargerperson]

Yes I agree a fake. So what's the guess? What will it go for?

Selling for no reserve.  Who knows why but perhaps the seller knows it is in their interest to sell the car sooner rather than later.  if the car was as represented, there would most likely be a decent reserve.

[TUFCAT]

Barrett-Jackson allows its sellers to misrepresent cars all the time and don't seem to care when customers get burned......but they must really think this one's special, because its a "Saturday" car.

[Dodge Don]

While I have no definitive proof my personal opinion is still that this was a car that was originally a U code car and that an error was made at some point where a V replaced the U. I am dubious about the Fender Tag and ECS already pointed out that the door sticker was a repop.

Plain and simple.  The cowl VIN plate has an engine digit error. This car was definitely built as a 440-4bbl with A/C originally....

Somehow the original order to produce this vehicle passed all the system edits/checks early on and a VIN was assigned to the VON at the plant's computer.  This gave the plant a green light to build this Charger and generate all the necessary paperwork with the (at the time) VIN error.  

In the very early stages of this build (possibly with a partially assembled body-in-white), since air conditioning was ordered these combinations were determined to be unbuildable.

A decision had to be made to keep the line moving.  The original coding error could be easily resolved by using an air-conditioning acceptable 440-4bbl, so the vehicle continued its journey to become an air conditioned Charger R/T 440-automatic with cruise control.

Here's the problem, in those days Chrysler would not have stamped a new VIN plate after the corrections were made.  Several other important pieces of documentation would have been corrected as soon as the change was entered into the system (....more on that story in a second)

All broadcast sheets would be immediately corrected once the "new" engine sales code was entered into the system. Since broadcast sheets were printed at various stations along the line, this information had to be correct.  Once the vehicle reached the final line, it would have assumed its actual build identity per the broadcast sheet. At this time all door jamb MDH labels, EPA engine id labels, window sticker, et all, get printed correctly and the vehicle leaves the plant.

In this case , a beautiful Charger R/T has now been built to the correct Chrysler standard as a 440-44bl according to its broadcast sheet with air conditioning, cruise control, and all other associated records except one thing....the cowl VIN plate.

In an assembly line, components of the assembled body must arrive in sequence at each station at all times.  The sequence number means everything, and is much more important at the plant than the VIN number. The bodies arrive in order based on the sequence number of each car, and are built according to the broadcast sheet.  Even the VIN plate is sequenced for the instrument panel sub assembly station. Completed instrument panels with VIN plates are sent according to sequence number for installation on the trim line.

If by chance, a VIN plate stamping error is noted, its likely way to late in the process to correct.  If already been put into sequencing, it would be difficult if not impossible to pull off the line and correct before it reached the instrument panel sub assembly station.... where it would be sequenced and built to an exact configuration with correct wiring based on optional equipment such as the dash cluster, a/c, radio, etc.

Vin stamp errors are seen numerous times in the Mopar world.  Even though the VIN is wrong, the cars were "correctly built" with correct information printed on the build sheet, and door jamb decal.  

By today's standards a VIN-digit error like this wouldn't see daylight outside of the plant without the proper corrections, but back then it wasn't considered necessary to change the VIN plate for a "seemingly minor" engine designation error.

Also keep in mind......this car has a FAKE fender tag and a FAKE door jamb decal! The build sheet is miraculously missing, as well as the original engine and transmission. Conveniently, all of the other items to correctly validate a car are also notably missing.....the only thing you can verify is what's present, and what's missing....there's not even a window sticker, documented owner history, or original photo's to go by.

So my final conclusion (which should go without saying... ) is that this car CANNOT NOT BE VERIFIED as an actual V-code 440 six barrel vehicle built by Chrysler Corporation.  PERIOD.  End of story.  

Which sequence number are you referring to?

[TUFCAT]

Production sequence number. The first line of broadcast sheet, first box. 

[Dodge Don]

Production sequence number.  It's on the first line of broadcast sheet, first box.

The Sequence Number (box 1 or line 1 on Broadcast Sheet) for 70 Chargers all built at the St. Louis Assembly Plant do not follow any order or sequence.

The "Sequence Number" which are the last 6 digits of the VIN do follow a sequential order and are aligned to build dates.

I've heard that is not the case for other assembly plants but for 70 St. Louis that is the case.

[Y1CHARGER]

Yes I agree a fake. So what's the guess? What will it go for?

Selling for no reserve.  Who knows why but perhaps the seller knows it is in their interest to sell the car sooner rather than later.  if the car was as represented, there would most likely be a decent reserve.

Selling for no reserve is not a problem as long as you have your buddies there bidding on it, which wouldn't surprise me after seeing the security circus at Carlisle

[TUFCAT]

Don, the production sequence number was generated by the assembly plant to determine the actual sequence a car will travel down the assembly line.

For example, not all chargers will follow in sequence, neither will coronets, satellites, etc.  Remember assembly lines were mixed with different body styles and models (2dr, 4dr, station wagons) so the sequence number could be all across the board for any given model or body style.

You are correct that this number has no correlation to the order number, or sequential VIN number.  

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

It's still a nice car, but...

No expense spared?? 

Incorrect ballast resistor, voltage regulator, wiper motor, distributor cap, hood pad clips, and battery. Incorrectly finished master cylinder, oil fill cap, PCV valve, alternator pulley, and painted over A/C line brackets. 
And... worm clamps.    WORM CLAMPS!! 

I think I'm gonna... hold on...       

Im wit ya bud

[1974dodgecharger]

wow, nice job on the air cleaner 

[bakerhillpins]

Barrett-Jackson allows its sellers to misrepresent cars all the time and don't seem to care when customers get burned......they must really think this one's special, because its a "Saturday" car.

It's like lawyers, they make money on both ends so what happens in between isn't really relevant to them as long as the transaction takes place. Toss in a simply worded disclaimer and they are good to go. 

[Dodge Don]

Don, the production sequence number was generated by the assembly plant to determine the actual sequence a car will travel down the assembly line.

For example, not all chargers will follow in sequence, neither will coronets, satellites, etc.  Remember assembly lines were mixed with different body styles and models (2dr, 4dr, station wagons) so the sequence number could be all across the board for any given model or body style.

You are correct that this number has no correlation to the order number, or sequential VIN number.  

The sequence numbers do not even remotely line up that way. I could have sequential numbers 10 months apart. I spoke with a retired worker from the St. Louis assembly plant a long time ago and he confirmed they ran the models down the line in batches...all Chargers, all Coronets etc....it was more productive to focus on the same model one after the other. He worked there in 70 so I'm assuming he knows what he was talking about. As I understand it this is not the way the other plants worked however that was how St. Louis functioned. The VINs also run in batches sequentially in groups of around 500 or so then stop and pickup again...over and over by production day. All 70 Chargers were built at one plant rather than spread across 2 plants.

[XH29N0G]

To butt in - but for clarification on what is being said.  I saw VIN posted that was one off from mine.  I assumed that was built on the same day next to mine on the assembly line.  What I am hearing is that may be correct.  The vin # would be the XH29N0G 19abcd right? 

[moparnation74]

My father worked at the St Louis plant part time during 1966-1970 and they did run the model lines in batches.