512 Parts List

comet_666 · December 30, 2014, 02:38:01 PM

Kern Dog · December 30, 2014, 09:18:13 PM

Just curious:
Why 512 ? Is it because the price is the same as it is with less cubes? I ask because I see so many people building long stroke engines and then just cruise them around. A stock stroke 440 can really scram and get 2-3 more mpgs on long trips. Running more cubes and not using the extra power they provide is like carrying 500 pounds of useless weight in your trunk. It only costs you money. I see that you mention the 440 Source heads. These heads are great on 383s and 440s but are a bottleneck on a 500 inch engine unless they have some port work done. They have potential but will not feed 512 inches. My 493 really woke up once I had the Edelbrocks ported. I can only imagine how an engine with almost 20 more inches would be.
Your cam will require a high stall converter. Some of them really suck at freeway driving especially if the stall rating is higher than your cruise rpm. I didn't read what your compression ratio will be, but I do know that 440Source offers a dished piston option. They calc to around 9.28 to 1 with a .018 deck clearance. Deck the block that .018 and the compression still is below 10.0 to 1. This is great and will be compatible with 91 or 93 octane fuel.
I am currently running a 493, 10.07 to 1 with a Lunati flat tappet solid lifter 261* I 271* E @ .050, .556/.578 lift. The cam runs strong but is a bit soft under 3000 rpms. I'm switching to the MP 284/528 cam to improve street manners. I want better off idle performance than the big Lunati gives.
Good luck, Greg

comet_666 · December 30, 2014, 09:30:20 PM

I am going to clean the heads up a bit. I am thinking 512 because my boss did one for his Dart and without too much hassle it went right together and had good numbers. I should mention it will ow be a 727/3.91 car as well. once we make sure block is good to go then we can get the block work done and order the kit... you thinking dished pistons?

Kern Dog · December 31, 2014, 08:58:40 PM

I have flat tops with valve reliefs in mine, .012 below deck. I used to have approx 10.9 to 1 CR with the .039 head gasket. I had a quench distance of .052 which is outside the target of .035 to .045. If you had a dished piston sitting at zero deck, the .039 head gasket puts you exactly in the sweet spot for quench while the dish of the piston reduces your compression ratio to a safe level for the street.
I dealt with detonation in mine, so I am sorta gun shy about running over 10.5 on the street. There are guys that tell you that you can run 11.5 to one on pump gas if you have a big cam, but to me that just makes the engine less streetable. The big cam gives away low end torque in exchange for more high RPM power. I'm not interested in the poor cruising performance that comes with a big cam and a high stall converter. During all of my experiences over the past 2-3 years, I learned that a moderate compression ratio allows you to run more spark advance. The HP gains of the proper ignition timing outweighed any loss I had from lowering my compression from 10.9 to 1 down to 10.07 to 1.
The other reason I'm in favor of dished pistons is that it buys you a bit of tolerance if you are out on a road trip. We are always at the mercy of what fuel is available and I've been near empty and had to run 87 octane just to get to the next station down the road. I hated the feeling of being on the edge of detonation all the time. It really took the fun out of driving the car. I finally installed thicker head gaskets because I wasn't interested in pulling the engine out for a piston swap. If there is an occasion to pull the engine in the future, I certainly will change to some sort of dished piston like we have mentioned here.

Kern Dog · December 31, 2014, 09:11:50 PM

I do not pretend to know all the answers on the subject. I just know what works for me. My high compression ratio meant limiting my ignition timing to 30 or 31 degrees total, running 91 octane at a minimum and only flooring it in cool weather. Once the weather went above 70 degrees, the car would knock if I went past 3/4 throttle. I did some testing with race gas. A 50/50 mix of 91 and 104 helped but it still knocked a bit. A 50/50 mix of 91 and 110 almost eliminated it. Straight 110 allowed me to move the timing to 34 without any knock and the car was crazy fast! The 110 was $ 60 for 5 gallon pails though. I just wanted the convenience of driving the car how I wanted without any "crutches" like octane boosters, backing off the timing, water injection, etc.
I kne that the simple truth was that I either needed MORE octane or LESS compression. Many guys were confused as to why my engine knocked with only 10.9 CR , saying that they run well over 11.5 and theirs runs fine. I'm limited to 91 octane here in CA, plus we run 10% Ethanol in the gas. Most guys online thought a bigger cam with a later intake closing point would help. I preferred the idea of using a thicker head gasket to lower the CR. Most guys thought it was a bad idea and that my knocking would get worse due to the loss of quench. Since I was feeling overwhelmed with all the one sided responses, I took the advice of a guy on FABO and ordered a bigger cam that he suggested. It turned out that while that cam was bigger, my detonation got worse. I finally did what I wanted and called Cometic for a pair of the .075 gaskets. While the heads were off I had them ported. After reassembly, the car did not knock, made more power and I did my own private victory dance.

cdr · December 31, 2014, 10:16:59 PM

i would not use comp lifters

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,95605.0.html

fy469rtse · January 01, 2015, 04:30:23 AM

And I would measure main caps versus crank, 440 source can be a little loose on there clearances,
The ones I have found have more like race clearances,
With this build , attention to detail is the key to a healthy engine , through.y clean everything ,
Post when your ready and start a list of what to do with bare block
I'm sure everyone will contribute
1. Chase all threads with bottom tap to ensure good torquing of head bolts etc
This can be done before or after engine shop does its work , I prefer to do it before hot tank on block

fy469rtse · January 01, 2015, 04:44:02 AM

Ditch the timing chain off your list to 440 source,
Get a roll master one ,
Look up the thread on hear for checking and blueprinting oil pumps , you wouldn't believe how bad they can out of the box new

fy469rtse · January 01, 2015, 04:48:47 AM

Have a look for thick wall bananna groove rocker shafts, also billit hold downs will stop shafts from ovaling under torque from hold down bolts

fy469rtse · January 01, 2015, 04:52:06 AM

Ditch the water pump,
Waste of money,
There's a thread on hear with member tested all , factory ones were the best , hemi style 7 blade with anti cavitation plate , doesn't matter if not alloy,

fy469rtse · January 01, 2015, 04:54:25 AM

Also water neck , look for billit one that's o ringed ,
A lot less chance of it seeping , factory ones or similar known to seep

fy469rtse · January 01, 2015, 10:01:04 AM

Oil pump gasket comes with the gasket kit and with the new pump,
Delete that off your list

fy469rtse · January 01, 2015, 10:03:19 AM

Double check your camshaft, a lot of those extreme energy cams single bolt , ? And you 3 bolt billit cam gear

firefighter3931 · January 01, 2015, 02:20:45 PM

Personally....I'm not a fan of fluid dampners.

The elastomer style would be my first choice.

Ron

comet_666 · January 01, 2015, 03:49:45 PM

This is great guys, keep it coming!

fy469rtse - cam is 3 bolt
switched to this:

Rollmaster BB Mopar timing set - 3 Bolt $140
http://www.buyracingparts.com/timing-sets/rollmaster-bb-mopar-timing-set---3-bolt.html

Hughes Engines PREMIUM BB 1.5 ROCKER ARM KIT W/ SHAFTS HUG 15103 $600
http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/products.php?browse=category&level0=RC0gQmlnIEJsb2NrIChMb3cgRGVjayk=&level1=Um9ja2VyIEFybXMgJiBBY2Nlc3Nvcmllcw==&searchmode=partnumber&page=1&partid=26774

Johnson Hydraulic Lifters SUM-HT2011 - $70
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-ht2011

fy469rtse · January 01, 2015, 08:14:21 PM

Good , best advice is to keep reading, be informed about what your doing ,
The more you understand the better the choices will be,
I'm trying the fluid damper for the first time , so far there's no problems
But I chose this for other reasons , I'm running a milodon gear drive,
And this set the pulleys out further, fluid damper helped line these up
Compression ratio will be critical with head choice,
Detonation, so re read I think Kerndogs post , and a lot of reading on known threads on here,
I'm running the victors with 11.25 comp ratio , with no detonation,
Challenger 340 doing a similar thread on his current build , look for that 512 also same heads

fy469rtse · January 01, 2015, 08:18:46 PM

Ditch the freeze plug kit, get milodon
There's cheap and the there's poor quality, cheap has less wall thickness, shoulders not as deep, ? Just freeze plugs,
But the last issues you want to have is coolant leaks that result in engine being pulled to fix ,

comet_666 · January 02, 2015, 02:20:12 PM

Ok, here is another parts list from my builder. Thoughts?

Eagle Comp rotating assembly 21203
Edelbrock rpm Heads
Performance cam brgs.
Edelbrock Intake rpm 7193
Canton Pan 15-950
Canton Pick up 15-951
ARP Main Cap Studs 140-5402
ARP Head Bolts 145-3706
Brass soft Plugs
Felpro Head gasket 1009
Mr Gasket Performance pan gasket
Hyd Roller Cam 723445-10
Comp Pro Magnum Lifter Hyd.Roller 8921-16
ARP SS Intake Bolts
Harland Sharp Roller Rocker arms S70015K
Timing Chain set Roller thrust brg.
Oil pump 63HP Melling Select
Oil Pump Drive Brass gear for roller gear p3690875
Manley3/8 x.08 Pushrods
Milodon Water Pump 16260
Carb QF 780VS
MSD Ready to run Distributor 8387
MSD Wires
MSD Coil

fy469rtse · January 03, 2015, 12:17:45 AM

Ooh l like that list, ? Difference in $ , bet its a big jump huh
Is that a HV oil pump , ditch that and go stock , pump will still need to be detailed , blueprinted
You will not need that HV pump extra drag on bronze gear , I learnt the hard way,
Still go stock replacement water pump, no benefit on so called aftermarket ones
Firecore ignition set up will save you $
That hydraulic cam will cost you more $ in block machining work , I would look for another cam shaft if needed to run bronze gear , wear point read soft ,
Lifter bores will need to be machined and bushed for oil control,

comet_666 · January 03, 2015, 01:55:12 PM

And yet another, thanks for the help on this fy469rtse, your input is invaluable!!

Eagle Comp rotating assembly 21203
Performance cam brgs.
Victor Edelbrock 440 Cylinder Heads (ported) with Hughes 1.5 Rockers and stainless steel valves with dual springs and damper
Edelbrock Intake Victor 2954
ARP Main Cap Studs 140-5402
ARP Head Bolts 145-3706
Brass soft Plugs
Internal / External Balance Damper 200-1128
Milodon Balancer Bolt
Hyd Roller Cam 723445-10
Comp Pro Magnum Lifter Hyd.Roller 8921-16
ARP SS Intake Bolts
Timing Chain set Roller thrust brg.
Oil pump 63HP Melling Select
Oil Pump Drive Brass gear for roller gear p3690875
Water Pump MIL16260
Polished Valve Covers SUM440350
Carb QF 780VS
Firecore "RB" Ready To Run Distributor MRED93871
Taylor Spiro-Pro Spark Plug Wire Set TAY74072
FireCore Performance CD R2R Mini Coil MREFC-CDM
MSD Hold clamp and Seperators
ARP Stainless Header Bolts

cdr · January 03, 2015, 02:15:07 PM

better do some research on bb mopars & hydro roller lifters !!!!! just sayin

Challenger340 · January 03, 2015, 02:54:50 PM

Correct me of I am wrong here ?
But,
the Eagle 21203 Kit is a 4.375" Stroke Crank ?

If you are using an aftermarket Race Block, read no further and disregard the following.

If using a "stock" type Block......
Been awhile since we put one of those in a "stock" Block, (we normally default to an aftermarket Block past 4.250" Stroke)
That said,
Is your builder familiar with BB Mopar Strokers ?... and has a plan ?
because,
anytime I put a 4.375" Crank in a stock Block.... with an INTERNAL Oil Pickup.... I have to set the Block up in the Mill and move the pickup Hole over closer to the pan rail, re-thread, then re-Port the Pickup Oil gallery back in the line with the pickup ?
No easy task, gets "thin" over there ?

Just say'in.... and NOT my place to go schooling anybody, but is he aware the 4.375" Stroke Crank will have some interference "issues" with the Oil Pickup Boss on stock type Blocks ? Canton Internal Pickup ?

Just make sure he has priced in the extra machining operations Labor to accomplish the internal pickup mod with the 4.375" crank ?
or,
maybe he has done this before and has his own way of doing things ?
No offense intended, just trying to help... I certainly don't know everything !

comet_666 · January 03, 2015, 02:58:31 PM

I will get more info from him and update
He did mention canton pickup though..

Thanks!!!!!!!!

Kern Dog · January 04, 2015, 02:54:30 PM

Good points made here.
If the OP took the time to post, he should pay attention to the responses. DO research. Ask more questions. The trend to build the biggest engine you can is tempting but what is the point of the build? Is this just to be able to brag about the engine size? Do you intend to pull a house off its foundation? Plan to pull a 10 car trailer? Run a 9 second 1/4 mile?
The further you deviate from stock the more money you will spend. Why? Are you going to actually see the benefits of the efforts? You can make great power without resorting to extra machine work and custom parts. Even the 4.15 stroke takes you right near 500 inches with only small notches at the bottoms of the cylinders for rod clearance. My stock oil pump pickup clears without resorting to any crazy mods.

comet_666 · January 04, 2015, 03:11:15 PM

Believe me I am paying attention to the responses here and they are all very much appreciated!
I am just trying to nail down where I want to go with this so I am all over the board a bit

When I narrow my lists of builds down I will post and see what you guys have to say!

Challenger340 · January 04, 2015, 03:44:39 PM

Quote from: comet_666 on January 04, 2015, 03:11:15 PM
Believe me I am paying attention to the responses here and they are all very much appreciated!
I am just trying to nail down where I want to go with this so I am all over the board a bit
When I narrow my lists of builds down I will post and see what you guys have to say!

KUDO's to you Comet !
Take your time... educate yourself along the way... then later when you make YOUR decision, it will be from a position of CONFIDENCE in attaining what YOU want.

just a suggestion ?
maybe a good starting point would be to sit down, and accurately reflect on "expectations" YOU want in your Car ?
NOT just from a "power" perspective.... as there are trade-offs to everything.
But over the full range of intended uses you have for your car ?

* Fuel grade ? rpm ranges ? How much highway ? City? Idle quality? Power Brakes? Rear Gearing/Tire Diameter ?
and don't forget here....
the SUPPORT systems required on the Car to satisfy your Engine Goals ?
Things like,
* Header & Exhaust System Diameters ?
* Fuel Delivery system ?(is a 3/8" stock Line and tank pickup sufficient to feed Fuel?)
* How are you going to cool the extra 20% HEAT of the Stroker ?

Just sayín...
You ARE on the right track, stay on it and you WILL get it right !

PS; what did your guy say about the 4.375" Crank..... WITH an "Internal" Oil pickup ?

six-tee-nine · January 05, 2015, 03:59:33 AM

Quote from: comet_666 on January 02, 2015, 02:20:12 PM
Ok, here is another parts list from my builder. Thoughts?

Eagle Comp rotating assembly 21203
Edelbrock rpm Heads
Performance cam brgs.
Edelbrock Intake rpm 7193
Canton Pan 15-950
Canton Pick up 15-951
ARP Main Cap Studs 140-5402
ARP Head Bolts 145-3706
Brass soft Plugs
Felpro Head gasket 1009
Mr Gasket Performance pan gasket
Hyd Roller Cam 723445-10
Comp Pro Magnum Lifter Hyd.Roller 8921-16
ARP SS Intake Bolts
Harland Sharp Roller Rocker arms S70015K
Timing Chain set Roller thrust brg.
Oil pump 63HP Melling Select
Oil Pump Drive Brass gear for roller gear p3690875
Manley3/8 x.08 Pushrods
Milodon Water Pump 16260
Carb QF 780VS
MSD Ready to run Distributor 8387
MSD Wires
MSD Coil

I like this list.
However i would not go with a hydr roller cam. This has to to with the need to bush the lifter bores. There is a topic on here about that subject.
Read it . Choose another type of cam that requires no extra work to your engine block. I'm no cam expert but maybe others can advise you better on that part. As suggested before go with a Fircore ign system. Ask Ron he'll help you with that. From the money saved on machine work You could have the heads ported wich coud give you some nice additional hp numbers.

six-tee-nine · January 05, 2015, 04:00:52 AM

BTW I'm bookmarking this topic. Awesome input for my future engine.

EDIT : this is the topic I was referring to in my earlier post about cam types
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,114997.0.html

comet_666 · January 05, 2015, 01:45:59 PM

Thanks for the help on these guys, I am learning quite a bit and actually having fun trying to get my head wrapped around this! Here is another build I was toying with...

Eagle Comp rotating assembly
Edelbrock rpm Heads
Performance cam brgs.
Edelbrock Intake rpm 7193
COMP Cams 1.5 Pro Magnum Shaft Mount Roller Rocker Arms 1621-16
Comp Cam 245/257@110 .535/.542 lift
ARP Main Cap Studs 140-5402
ARP Head Bolts 145-3706
Brass soft Plugs
Complete Engine Gasket Kit 112-1000
Sealed Power Hydraulic Lifters HT-2011
ARP SS Intake Bolts
Timing Chain set Roller thrust brg.
Oil pump 63HP Melling Select
Misc. Plugs brass
Oil Pump Drive Brass gear for roller gear p3690875
Manley3/8 x.08 Pushrods
Milodon Water Pump 16260
Polished Valve Covers SUM440350
Carb QF 780VS
Firecore "RB" Ready To Run Distributor MRED93871
MSD Wires
FireCore Performance CD R2R Mini Coil MREFC-CDM

firefighter3931 · January 06, 2015, 08:17:34 AM

How much power are you looking to make ?

With a std port head the 550hp range is achievable with basic headwork. Above that will require some porting.

The Indy EZ heads with max wedge intake ports will go well over 600hp and there are some very good intake manifold options that won't compromise hood clearance.

Ron

Ps. If you're looking at Ignition components the Firecore line is excellent quality & value. If you'd like a quote just send me a PM and i'll put something together for you

comet_666 · January 14, 2015, 09:17:02 AM

After months of back and fourth on this and TONS of help from you guys

This build seems to be where I am headed.... not final but getting there
I have a new stock 26 inch radiator, 3.91 gears, 727. This will be driven everywhere and once or twice a year taken to the track. It will run on 93 or above octane gas.

Eagle Comp rotating assembly (512) (unsure which kit, 10.5:1 compression or under is what we are going for, builder knows though)
Edelbrock rpm Heads (Port matched and mild port work)
Harland Sharp Roller Rocker arms S70015K
Carb QF 780VS
Comp Pro Magnum Lifter Hyd.Roller 8921-16 (bushing lifter bores)
OBX Headers 1 7/8
Hyd Roller Cam 723445-10
Firecore "RB" Ready To Run Distributor MRED93871
Edelbrock Performer RPM (Port matched)
Fluid damper - SFI Certified - Chrome Item Number: 200-1023 (440 Source)
Manley3/8 x.08 Pushrods
Carb Fuel line and fittings
Oil Pump Drive Brass gear for roller gear p3690875
Polished Valve Covers SUM440350
ARP Head Bolts 145-3706
Timing Chain set Roller thrust brg.
Milodon Water Pump 16260 (using stock housing)
MSD Wires
Felpro Head gasket 1009
Oil pump 63HP Melling Select
ARP Main Cap Studs 140-5402
Oil Brad Penn Break In Oil & Wix Performance Filter
Mr Gasket Performance pan gasket
FireCore Performance CD R2R Mini Coil MREFC-CDM
Performance cam brgs.
ARP SS Intake Bolts
Timing cover - Plain Steel 121-1012 (440 Source)
CNC Aluminum Oil Cap (440 Source)
Filter Style Breather (440 Source)

Thoughts

Challenger340 · January 14, 2015, 10:18:44 AM

oops

Challenger340 · January 14, 2015, 10:19:46 AM

Eagle Comp rotating assembly (512) (unsure which kit, 10.5:1 compression or under is what we are going fo

If you are still contemplating a 4.375" Stroke Kit, have you confirmed with your Builder, how he plans to address the interference of the 4.375" Crank with the Oil Pickup casting boss in the Block ?

Edelbrock rpm Heads (Port matched and mild port work)
With any Rotating Assembly you select, using Geometry's below 1.7, I would strongly suggest port flows above 280 cfm @ .600" Lift(28") for best results on 3.91 Gears(minimum 28" Diameter rear tire)
Contact Dwayne Porter, or HeyOldGuy on this Site for Porting and actual Flowing, or consider the CNC Super Stealth Head OOTB

Comp Pro Magnum Lifter Hyd.Roller 8921-16 (bushing lifter bores)
I am the guy who gets all poopy pants about sloppy Lifter Bores with Hydraulic Rollers..... that said, and my point being..... is have your guy MEASURE yours !!
Your Block may be fine depending upon how much wear is present at the bottom of the Lifter Bores, and NOT require actual "bushing" which will save you tons $$ !
My only pet peeve about the Lifter Bores, is the manufacturers selling the HR Lifters to the public, as "drop-ins" with NO instructions or guidance as to how much clearance is acceptable ?
Less than .0011" to .0012" Clearance anywhere in the Lifter Bore, (using minimum 15W40 Oil) seems to be about right.
I just default on my own to Bushing the Bores with HR's because I have been stung, but's that's NOT to say YOUR Bores aren't, or wont work adequately ?
HR Lifters = CHECK Lifter Bores CAREFULLY ! is my point !

Hyd Roller Cam 723445-10
Is that a Howards ?
A wee bit small ? NO ?
236* Intake pattern on a Stroker for the 3.91's ?

Fluid damper - SFI Certified - Chrome Item Number: 200-1023 (440 Source)
Just me.... but not a fan of "fluid" type dampers. Well priced though, can't argue that

How are you delivering Fuel to the front of the Car ?

comet_666 · January 14, 2015, 11:13:23 AM

Challenger340 again, thank you as always for the input!!

I think all 512 kits require Clearance Block for stroke for the oil pickup but I could be wrong. He is doing that for me.

His suggestion on the lifter bores is to thoroughly check them as you say, if they "need it" then bush them. I will probably be running normal oil.

I believe that is a Howards cam yes. I am going to make sure he knows it has 3.91 gears and see if his thoughts change on that.

I am running a 3/8 line with a electric holly blue pump to get fuel to the carb.

comet_666 · January 15, 2015, 09:18:00 PM

Will stock cooling be enough?

comet_666 · March 24, 2015, 08:53:47 AM

Hopefully this weekend we will be assembling this!!!

fy469rtse · March 25, 2015, 04:51:29 AM

Bush lifter bores , they also benefit from the increase in bore length, it's a must even if they come up reasonable checked
These engines were never designed to have lifters sitting up higher,
I suggest a good look at mock stage to see where the oil groove passes relative to lift ,
Just looked up that cam shaft , I'm with bob on this ,
The benefit with roller is it will behave at idle and have the punch of high lift duration cam , roller allows you to ramp up lift,
Review with your builder, versus what you want out of build , power expected, drivability, etc,
Almost a Chevy grind

By the way cars come a long way, very nice

Challenger340 · March 25, 2015, 09:37:24 AM

Quote from: comet_666 on March 24, 2015, 08:53:47 AM
Hopefully this weekend we will be assembling this!!!

Great News

Keep us posted on the results.

Are you Dyno'ing the completed product ?

comet_666 · March 25, 2015, 09:56:52 AM

Thanks for the input guys as always !
Just dynoing the engine... His parents have been in and out of the hospital lately so it may be 2 or 3 more weeks on putting this together. I'm really about driveability on this.

comet_666 · May 25, 2015, 10:04:39 AM

I am going to be assembling the engine this week hopefully and getting it dyno'd the following week.

i'll keep you posted!

firefighter3931 · May 25, 2015, 04:46:32 PM

I Like the build but a few things I would change :

-Carb : a 780 VS is too small for a 500in build...especially with a dual plane intake manifold.

-Cam : a 236@.050 duration stick is very small for a 500in build. It will make peak power at 5000 rpm or slightly less. That grind is at least 10* too small for the displacement.

Ron

comet_666 · May 26, 2015, 09:47:21 AM

He has a dozen carbs in different sizes, he said we will go with the one that works best on it so it may be like an 825 or whatever. We may tweak the cam as well, he has dozens to swap out.

mally69 · May 31, 2015, 06:51:17 PM

I'd go with a proform 950

News:

512 Parts List