lets talk new 440 heads

[BSB67]

I'm no expert by any means but I will share my experience with you and offer up some advice.

Last year I purchased a top end kit from Edelbrock, new headers, carb, MSD ignition, rear gear, rockers, and more for my 383.  Working with a friend using desktop dyno software I made my purchase expecting a particular result.

Once the speed shop completed the installation and dyno tuned the car.  I was really depressed with the results.  They were nowhere near what the software predicted.  Why?  Well, I left the bottom end alone and I now realize I need some work on the bottom end as well.  This mistake was mine because I didn't work with a reputable builder.  I didn't seek their hands on advice.  Rather I gave direct instructions to the speed shop.  They never questioned me, they just collected my money.  LOTS and LOTS of money.  Looking back, I probably should have done the bottom end and waited on some of the top end.  IDK - Like I said I'm no expert here.  Actually quite the opposite!  LOL

My hindsight / advice is this...  It may not be a good idea to approach this like I did.  Rather, if you are having someone do the work for you then I suggest you find a reputable shop.  Bring the Charger to them and let them diagnose and make recommendations.  If you are on a budget, then let them know and come up with a plan together on how to best achieve your goals.  They may suggest heads or some other items that need to be done in order to truly recognize the benefits of the heads, like a bottom end.  I spent allot of money and while she performs much better than she did, I'm still disappointed in the results.  My only saving grace is knowing I have already done allot of the work already. 

That is unfortunate.  Sorry to hear that.

However, I'm not surprised by your results, and I would not necessarily blame the short block.  Or at least not yet.  Your combination of parts is at least part of the problem, is my guess.

[Mike DC]

 

Figure out whether you really want more low/mid-range torque, or higher top-end horsepower.  Two different things.  



If you're mostly lead-footing around casually, ripping tires from a stop, hitting 3500 rpm sometimes?  And you just want the engine to feel more powerful 100% of the time?  Then you want low/mid-range torque.  Go for a stroker to add cubic inches.  Bigger heads won't hurt for this but they help less than displacement.

If you want it to win street races, as in full-effort, gas-pedal-mashed-down-and-held, RPMs up there screaming?  Then you want horsepower.  Needs bigger heads, among other things.  A stroker helps too but the heads are arguably even more of a necessity.  

[rt green]

do the suspension first

[1974dodgecharger]

what challenger340 saids...... 

[don duick]

I spent 6,000 to make 320 rwhp with a 440 in a 70 charger and have done nothing major to suspension. New bushings and shocks only. Now it is a bit scary to drive. Like the 2 previous posts, upgrade of suspension is a good idea.

[fy469rtse]

Yes I agree, with an increase in horse power relates to everything else that's needs upgrading,
A perfectly good transmission suddenly wears out quickly because of the extra strain placed on it ,
You could do comp test , put a bore scope down a plug hole ,
Top of piston veiwed will tell you a lot,
If motor heathy, you could do a little porting work ,
New intake rpm air gap , a good set of headers,
Slightly more stall to converter in trans , new cam , a good dual pattern cam up grade ,
What diff gears ? That could be an option to get a bit more performance ,
It starts getting endless on options on what to do ,
You could start by buying and adding parts to this engine like the headers intake etc, that will be used once budget allows to build from scratch, stroker motor starting with new acquired block,
Leaving this one in the car enjoying driving it until ready to do swap ?

[Stegs]

yea what ive decided is this

in the spring im going to get a shift kit to wake up the 727

then, im going to spend a little bit of money and bring this car away to have it tuned as best as it can.....from idle to 4500 rpms and up

im going to drive it and see what those 2 items do for me.

If I want a little more im going to invest in a new intake manifold.....to help the motor breath a little better, along with some new mufflers


if after all that im not happy, which I highly doubt b/c the car was fantastic this summer, just needs a good tune.......I think I will save for a stroker

Looking at 440source.com....I have a lot of options. I think the smallest I can go (maybe the cheapest) is a 500 c.i. stroker


Ive always wanted a 496 cubic inch stroker but I cant find the kit on 440sourse.com


anyway...I think I will start small, and work my way up

1. have the car strapped to a dyno and tuned
2. shift kit for the trans

3 (if I want more) new intake manifold
4. stroker (down the road)


YOU GUYS THINK THATS A GOOD PLAN?

on a side note, what do you think a 496 stroker would cost....ballpark idea? 3000? 4000? more?


My plans for the car (as im 27 and will have it forever) is I want to do a pro touring car.       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ8K7P4EJEA

Its not a numbers matching car, so to me its a blank canvas.

I want to do 4 disc brakes, big tires, love to do the stroker or even better a fuel injected crate hemi, get a gear venders overdrive for the 727

of course upgrade the suspension......


but that is down the road a long ways....and its a debate of that or return the car to as close to assembly line new, but that now seems boring to me as its not a original car

[moparnation74]

I would do #1 and #2(transgo).  #3 would be a waste, based on your future goals.  As far as your future goals there many options.  Plus, if your saving for that, you will always have a reserve in case if something breaks or something changes in your life. 

[Stegs]

I would do #1 and #2(transgo).  #3 would be a waste, based on your future goals.  As far as your future goals there many options.  Plus, if your saving for that, you will always have a reserve in case if something breaks or something changes in your life. 

odd question but wont a new edelbrock air gap intake work on a stroker motor if I were to do one?

[69wannabe]

I would do #1 and #2(transgo).  #3 would be a waste, based on your future goals.  As far as your future goals there many options.  Plus, if your saving for that, you will always have a reserve in case if something breaks or something changes in your life. 

odd question but wont a new edelbrock air gap intake work on a stroker motor if I were to do one?

Yes, if you are referring to the eddy RPM intake manifold. This is the intake I have on my 493 ci stroker and it works great!!!

[Cooter]

Don't get all hung up on "1000 RWHP" that the typical assclowns post up on youtube. Those things are boosted to within an inch of their lives just to be a rockstar for 30 sec.

A mild 440, or a mild hyd. Roller cammed 505" stroker will put it down just fine.
big HP numbers on the street are fine until an LS powered  fox body welds you to the ground on about 30 psi.

These old engine blocks WILL NOT take 1000 plus HP. so forget that. Aftermarket? Well, if you got $40k laying round, you too can be a rock star on you tube.

Btw: ALL big block intakes are of "air gap" design(cept for the one ignorant M1 thing). "Air gap" is typically a small block thing.

[1974dodgecharger]

you gotta love it though when they say, 'DAILY DRIVER 1000HP' especially with civics and then you ask the people how many miles they put on it in a week they say about 5 miles, to dyno shop and back to the garage and/or track.

Don't get all hung up on "1000 RWHP" that the typical assclowns post up on youtube. Those things are boosted to within an inch of their lives just to be a rockstar for 30 sec.

A mild 440, or a mild hyd. Roller cammed 505" stroker will put it down just fine.
big HP numbers on the street are fine until an LS powered  fox body welds you to the ground on about 30 psi.

These old engine blocks WILL NOT take 1000 plus HP. so forget that. Aftermarket? Well, if you got $40k laying round, you too can be a rock star on you tube.

Btw: ALL big block intakes are of "air gap" design(cept for the one ignorant M1 thing). "Air gap" is typically a small block thing.

[69wannabe]

I was reading in an earlier post that you are a fellow jeep fan!!! Glad to know i'm not the only jeep 4.0 fan on here,I have 4 jeep grand cherokees and 1 cherokee sport within my house hold. All except for one has the 4.0 in them and the other is a 318. Anyway to get to the point, a good mild built 440 can be the best and enjoyable engine you will ever own. I am not a machinist but I have built several engines using a simple recipe and have had no problems making good horsepower and driveability. Any way you want to do this will make you a fun engine that you can drive anywhere anytime. I have posted these before but I don't mind sharing again. My friend drives his charger everywhere two and three days a week every week and his is a 74 440 block,cast crank. stock rods, TRW 2355 pistons, stock oil pump with a hemi oil pan, XE 268 comp cam and lifters, 346 stock heads with a 3 angle valve job and comp 911-16 springs, an edelbrock performer intake with a holley 750 vacuum secondary carb and the mopar electronic ignition kit. It also has heddman headers with 2 1/2 exhaust. His car runs great and has good torque and horsepower. His is a close to stock build with a better cam and a good set of headers. With these 2355 pistons the compression should be in the mid 9's which is fine for a mild street build. Most of the 383's didn't even have anything close to this compression unless it had close chamber heads or dome top pistons. High compression isn't necessary for a mild driver in my opinion, a good mild street engine will work great with 9.5 to 10.0 compression. The 440 I built for my charger was a 72 block steel crank, stock rods w/ arp rod bolts, TRW 2355 pistons. HP oil pump with hemi pan, XE 274 comp cam and lifters, 346 heads with 214 intake and 181 exhaust valves with 911-16 springs and some mild porting and cut .020 off the bottom, eddy RPM intake, holley 750 DP carb and headman headers with 2 1/2 exhaust and the mopar electronic ignition kit.  I drove for several years with this engine and wish now that I had it back in there!! It ran great and had all the power I needed to drive around with and I drove it alot with no problems. I drove it to nashville and back which is three hrs one way and just had to stop for gas and that was it. I swapped in a 493 ci rotating assy a few years back and it runs fine but I miss my stock stroked 440. It was powerful and dependable and I would have driven it anywhere without any worries. I think I had around 3 grand in my 440 and it was the most favorite engine that I have ever had in my charger. Good luck with your decision!!!!     

I need to add that my buddy's car has a Road Runner stall converter in it which is 2600 to 2800 maybe with 3.55 gears and my charger is a 4-speed with 3.55 gears....

[1974dodgecharger]

I figure the heads will give you more power at least with my 383 I do 400 to wheels with eddy heads rpm. 

As most have said what is the person looking for low end/top end/ etc...or a balance.  most modern cars now need to rev to 5k or so to get their most power while us old muscle cars can rev to 3k or some 2k and smoke our tires.  I did more top end, but I sacrifice low end, but you can make up for it with 4.1 gears or so. 

I'm no expert by any means but I will share my experience with you and offer up some advice.

Last year I purchased a top end kit from Edelbrock, new headers, carb, MSD ignition, rear gear, rockers, and more for my 383.  Working with a friend using desktop dyno software I made my purchase expecting a particular result.

Once the speed shop completed the installation and dyno tuned the car.  I was really depressed with the results.  They were nowhere near what the software predicted.  Why?  Well, I left the bottom end alone and I now realize I need some work on the bottom end as well.  This mistake was mine because I didn't work with a reputable builder.  I didn't seek their hands on advice.  Rather I gave direct instructions to the speed shop.  They never questioned me, they just collected my money.  LOTS and LOTS of money.  Looking back, I probably should have done the bottom end and waited on some of the top end.  IDK - Like I said I'm no expert here.  Actually quite the opposite!  LOL

My hindsight / advice is this...  It may not be a good idea to approach this like I did.  Rather, if you are having someone do the work for you then I suggest you find a reputable shop.  Bring the Charger to them and let them diagnose and make recommendations.  If you are on a budget, then let them know and come up with a plan together on how to best achieve your goals.  They may suggest heads or some other items that need to be done in order to truly recognize the benefits of the heads, like a bottom end.  I spent allot of money and while she performs much better than she did, I'm still disappointed in the results.  My only saving grace is knowing I have already done allot of the work already. 

[Cooter]

First mistake I see many make is using computer software to "guess" @ output.
on a PERFECT day, you get results as such. It di didn't allow for changes in carb/air/fuel etc.

One thing is for sure, you won't know power numbers till it's on a real world dyno.....and that is huge money.

[Stegs]

I was reading in an earlier post that you are a fellow jeep fan!!! Glad to know i'm not the only jeep 4.0 fan on here,I have 4 jeep grand cherokees and 1 cherokee sport within my house hold. All except for one has the 4.0 in them and the other is a 318. Anyway to get to the point, a good mild built 440 can be the best and enjoyable engine you will ever own. I am not a machinist but I have built several engines using a simple recipe and have had no problems making good horsepower and driveability. Any way you want to do this will make you a fun engine that you can drive anywhere anytime. I have posted these before but I don't mind sharing again. My friend drives his charger everywhere two and three days a week every week and his is a 74 440 block,cast crank. stock rods, TRW 2355 pistons, stock oil pump with a hemi oil pan, XE 268 comp cam and lifters, 346 stock heads with a 3 angle valve job and comp 911-16 springs, an edelbrock performer intake with a holley 750 vacuum secondary carb and the mopar electronic ignition kit. It also has heddman headers with 2 1/2 exhaust. His car runs great and has good torque and horsepower. His is a close to stock build with a better cam and a good set of headers. With these 2355 pistons the compression should be in the mid 9's which is fine for a mild street build. Most of the 383's didn't even have anything close to this compression unless it had close chamber heads or dome top pistons. High compression isn't necessary for a mild driver in my opinion, a good mild street engine will work great with 9.5 to 10.0 compression. The 440 I built for my charger was a 72 block steel crank, stock rods w/ arp rod bolts, TRW 2355 pistons. HP oil pump with hemi pan, XE 274 comp cam and lifters, 346 heads with 214 intake and 181 exhaust valves with 911-16 springs and some mild porting and cut .020 off the bottom, eddy RPM intake, holley 750 DP carb and headman headers with 2 1/2 exhaust and the mopar electronic ignition kit.  I drove for several years with this engine and wish now that I had it back in there!! It ran great and had all the power I needed to drive around with and I drove it alot with no problems. I drove it to nashville and back which is three hrs one way and just had to stop for gas and that was it. I swapped in a 493 ci rotating assy a few years back and it runs fine but I miss my stock stroked 440. It was powerful and dependable and I would have driven it anywhere without any worries. I think I had around 3 grand in my 440 and it was the most favorite engine that I have ever had in my charger. Good luck with your decision!!!!     

I need to add that my buddy's car has a Road Runner stall converter in it which is 2600 to 2800 maybe with 3.55 gears and my charger is a 4-speed with 3.55 gears....

great info! glad to have a fellow 4.0 jeep guy on a charger forum!

the info you gave me was great

I think im going to follow on my plan and save to do the motor right

I like the fact you said what you did, a mild build and how reliable it was with all the power and torque you want!!!

sounds exactly like what im looking for in the end!~

Thanks for the input guys

[firefighter3931]

Hey Scott,

Have a look at this thread....probably very close to the type of build you're looking for 

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,43911.0.html


Ron

[Stegs]

Hey Scott,

Have a look at this thread....probably very close to the type of build you're looking for 

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,43911.0.html


Ron

down the road that looks fantastic!...right now funds are low, going to start with the very basics, get what I have tuned on the dyno and wake up the 727 with a  shift kit

see where that gets me for now...but yes down the road, im thinking a 496 stroker would be great....id love to have that kind of torque to help this heavy b-body get up and get moving....or melt the tires 

[1974dodgecharger]

First mistake I see many make is using computer software to "guess" @ output.
on a PERFECT day, you get results as such. It di didn't allow for changes in carb/air/fuel etc.

One thing is for sure, you won't know power numbers till it's on a real world dyno.....and that is huge money.

WELL SAID AS USUAL COOTER....LAYING THE REALITY DOWN!!!!

[500Jon]

Hi Stegs,

Don't we all just love an engine thread!
$2000 will get you a full rebuild on a 440.
Probably with the right cam and pistons and 10 to 1 comp, 450hp.
It will still be driveable and get some good gas-miles too!
Other things to consider are, VACUUM for brakes???
The only cam that would work in my street HIPO-440 with a 'booster' is a Lunatti VooDoo 480 lift dual pattern.

My 440 in my Street/Race-Dart was 12 to 1 comp. 650 roller-cam, ali rods, iron ported 906 heads blah, blah.
Team 'G' manifold and 1050 Domi would eat gas at 2mpg, and was probably down to 1mpg on da strip!!!
It made a REAL 600hp.........@7000rpm's
Race-Gas at $20 a gallon and now I'm skint LOL!!!

Torque is more important on the street than Horsepower!
440's are good at this already even with iron heads.....

Be careful what you wish for and Happy New Year.

[Ghoste]

2k?  Your machinist works cheap, I'm spending over half that just to get the block and crank to where I want them.  (its all relative  )