Valvetrain noise thoughts? Advice needed.

[XH29N0G]

As some of you know from previous posts, I have noise from my valvetrain.  I have a Comp Cams hydraulic with .519/.511 236/246@50 (I think 280/296 is the advertised duration) with 112 LSA.  The rocker arms should be the stamped steel rockers.

I have two questions.  It has been suggested that aluminum valve covers might quiet things a bit.  Is there a difference between different aluminum valve covers where certain ones are heavier gauge than others?  Or better than others.

I have also read that some have changed rockers to quiet things.  The rockers should be good (new) so the question with rockers is whether having something where the lash might be adjusted (on a hydraulic) would be worthwhile (or even advisable).  Is there anything to this suggestion?  Worth it or not?

[moparnation74]

How loud is the noise?
Could the noise be related to fuel/ignition?
Any driveability/performance issues?

[XH29N0G]

I see nothing related to driveability or performance.  I also asked the builders (MM) about it and in another thread went through it with a bunch of folks.  There is a combination of valvetrain noise and likely piston slap when cold (maybe a little when warm too).  I have a fairly quiet muffler system on there so it is more noticeable.  last year I posted this video to give an idea of what it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40pFbx4Xnro&feature=youtu.be

My thinking was that it was winter and I don't have any plans to drive it so I might look into fixing up some things.  That is why the valvtrain question came up.

[fy469rtse]

Oil pressure and flow ok ? , have you pulled covers to inspect everything ok,
It's a trade off on roller rockers, friend of mine built big block stroker, full rollers to shafts, one of the main reasons I like to run bushed ones and for oil flow control ,
Just listened to your youtube clip, hydraulic shouldn't be that noisy,
If it where mine , I would pull a cover and inspect ,
Do so and post some close up photos , if oil pressure a problem up there , there will be signs,
Don't wait for something to fail, you posted on here because its your car and you know it better than anyone,
You gut is telling you something's is amiss ?

[XH29N0G]

I appreciate the response and suggestions.  The oil pressure has been fine (oem gauge 40-60 PSI), but I have not pulled the covers to inspect.  That will be next, but not this week, and probably not until mid January because of some deadlines.  If it would make a difference to use a heavier gauge aluminum valve cover, I would set up for that swap at the same time.  It has stamped steel (OEM style) rockers on there now.   

[BSB67]

It is hard for us to know at what noise level it will be okay enough for you.  It's a personal thing.

Screwing around with different valve covers and rocker arms are simply band aides to what is the root cause.  Personally, the look of a valve cover matters to me, therefore I don't even understand the concept of picking valve covers based on aluminum thickness for the purpose of muffling the noise created by the cam.  You will be plowing a bunch of money into rockers and valve covers in hopes that it reduces the cam related noise to your satisfaction.

If your satisfaction goes up as the valve train noise approaches zero noise, then simply replace the cam and lifters.  You'll spend less in the end, and will have fixed the source of your concern.

By the way, I think your car sounds great.

[moparnation74]

It was hard to hear on my phone so last night I listened through my Mac.

Engine sounded fine to me.

What are you idling at?

[fy469rtse]

Really guys , no one heard anything ,
I thought a lot of rockers noise, mild lift haudralic cam lifters,
XH29 rockers on a haudralic , zero lash,
With standard heads rockers , rely's on the correct length push rods,
After market heads etc, push rods etc adjustable rockers , wound down to zero lash, and then given 1/4 or more turn,
So no play there, that could be the source of excessive noise, push rods the wrong length if standard rockers used,
See there's no adjustment in factory rockers , so push rods would have to be the correct length ,
Was this done with who ever put this engine together ?

[fy469rtse]

Need to know more detail of your build , engine
Close up photos etc heads , and when you pull a cover off,
When you this, pick a rocker valve that's closed and see if excessive play or any ,
Oh and covers really won't quiet it down

[BSB67]

Really guys , no one heard anything ,
I thought a lot of rockers noise, mild lift haudralic cam lifters,
XH29 rockers on a haudralic , zero lash,
With standard heads rockers , rely's on the correct length push rods,
After market heads etc, push rods etc adjustable rockers , wound down to zero lash, and then given 1/4 or more turn,
So no play there, that could be the source of excessive noise, push rods the wrong length if standard rockers used,
See there's no adjustment in factory rockers , so push rods would have to be the correct length ,
Was this done with who ever put this engine together ?

Oh, yes, I heard it, if your comment was to me. 

You make some good points.  I guess I really don't know what cam he is using.  I assumed it was an XE.

Hard to imagine that the pushrods are too short, but possible, certainly.

I caution directing a novice to "check if they are loose" as they usually mis-diagnose loose.  It is very possible that the PR are an okay length but feel loose.

We don't know the type of lifters used in this build.  Variable duration lifters will rattle pretty good too.

[fy469rtse]

Good point , yes I don't want to direct a novice to inspect,
But he thinks it's getting noisier , so he's worried
I think he needs to take it to someone he can trust for a second opinion, possibly not the guy who put motor together

[moparnation74]

Good point , yes I don't want to direct a novice to inspect,
But he thinks it's getting noisier , so he's worried
I think he needs to take it to someone he can trust for a second opinion, possibly not the guy who put motor together

Very good advice above!

Some peoples recording devices can make it sound worse than what it actually is or the noise heard is real.  I think everyone heard valve train noise of some kind.  I am not going to direct a novice either for at home remedies.

As you stated, get a 2nd opinion from a qualified mechanic.

[BSB67]

Good point , yes I don't want to direct a novice to inspect,
But he thinks it's getting noisier , so he's worried
I think he needs to take it to someone he can trust for a second opinion, possibly not the guy who put motor together

He can do it.  We just need to be more clear than " check to see if they are loose"  With today's variety of lifters, I think that it is important to be able to actually see and observe the lifter plunger.  Pulling or pushing on the rocker or push rod without the appropriate "feel" or sensitivity might allow someone to come to the incorrect conclusion.

[c00nhunterjoe]

I heard no "abnormal" noises in that video.

[fy469rtse]

But you have driven yours a lot more than me,
So I'm not that deaf yet,  ah that's what I will do with my noise problem , just wait for my hearing to go
Yep we are all guessing , so the op needs to give us specs on engine and a look under and close up rocker gear
He's worried because valve train appears to be getting louder,

[XH29N0G]

I was offline for a little bit and apologize for the lack of response.  You are correct in assuming I am a novice, so good.  The noise does not seem to be getting any worse with driving though.  Just different from what I am used to with a much milder cam.  In an earlier thread, I was advised that this was normal, and I asked the builders to listen and they said it was normal.  I was just looking to see if it could be quieted a little more.  I realize that if it is quieted by muffling it with different valve covers that this is a band aid.  I asked the rocker arm question because I had read somewhere on the internet (the vast resource of not so perfect information) that sometimes different rocker arms could make a difference. 

The engine has Eddy RPM heads, stock (but new) pushrods and the rockers are stamped steel.  I had replaced one side before the rebuild and the arrangement I had was to check out the rockers and replace if necessary. 

I appreciate the input and discussion. 

The idle in that clip is 1000 rpm. 

[fy469rtse]

Good to hear , covers won't quiet it down,
But look up bushed roller rockers, banana grove shafts , billit hold downs ,
I like to hear if anyone else thinks this would help, I do, plus the added ability to adjust lash

[1970Moparmann]

I have a 500 stroker kit on a 400.   Used this cam - Comp Cam Xtreme Energy Hi-Lift .564, with adjustable rockers.   Pretty damn loud!   Sounds like marbles moving around....

I've had 4 people look at it, and all say it's because of the cam and lifters I chose. 

The car runs like a raped ape, and will eventually put a roller cam in it which should stop the noise.

Is yours a flat tappet?

[BSB67]

.....But look up bushed roller rockers, banana grove shafts , billit hold downs ,
I like to hear if anyone else thinks this would help....

No.

[BSB67]

I have a 500 stroker kit on a 400.   Used this cam - Comp Cam Xtreme Energy Hi-Lift .564, with adjustable rockers.   Pretty damn loud!   Sounds like marbles moving around....

I've had 4 people look at it, and all say it's because of the cam and lifters I chose. 

The car runs like a raped ape, and will eventually put a roller cam in it which should stop the noise.

Is yours a flat tappet?

Nice.  Do you know what lifters are in it?  Specific part number and/or type?  I believe Comp makes 3 or 4 different hydraulic lifters for Mopars.  Many manufacturers have a few styles of hyd. lifter.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Personally, i have always thought the stock rocker setup was "noisey". The rockers have slop in them and can "wiggle" laterally on the shafts. They are not bushed and no amount of oil or fancy covers will ever stop valvetrain noise on a factory setup in my opinion.
    I would suggest pulling valve covers and making sure none of your hold down spacer ears broke first. I have seen that before with higher lift and higher spring pressures using stock parts. If they are all fine and there is no excessive lateral rocker movement and you still seek peace of mind, then i suggest pulling the valley pan and visually inspect each lifter for the correct preload on base circle. Assuming all checks out, put it back together and enjoy the car.

[BSB67]

Personally, i have always thought the stock rocker setup was "noisey". The rockers have slop in them and can "wiggle" laterally on the shafts. They are not bushed and no amount of oil or fancy covers will ever stop valvetrain noise on a factory setup in my opinion.
    I would suggest pulling valve covers and making sure none of your hold down spacer ears broke first. I have seen that before with higher lift and higher spring pressures using stock parts. If they are all fine and there is no excessive lateral rocker movement and you still seek peace of mind, then i suggest pulling the valley pan and visually inspect each lifter for the correct preload on base circle. Assuming all checks out, put it back together and enjoy the car.

There are over 3 million applications where they are quiet.  There is no slop in the direction of load, as they are always to be in contact with the under side of the shaft.  There is no measurable side load so that would not be the source of noise.  If the rocker become loose between the shaft and the rocker, that is because it is loose between the push rod and rocker and will make a slap sound with any rocker.   In that case your problem is elsewhere.

[PlainfieldCharger]

When I got my car the engine had what I would call excessive valve train noise. I have a comp cam in it and the Previous owner just used the some stock stamped rockers. After installing some crane ductile steel adjustables the noise has been reduced significantly. I would still call it noisy to a stock build but it runs sweet with no operating issues. This was my first option to replacing the cam and lifters. Glad I looked at this first.

[firefighter3931]

The Comp XE hyd grinds are noisy by design....the aggressive valve action is what creates the valvetrain noise. Most get used to it after awhile. Heavy cast aluminum valvecovers like the MP finned aluminum will dampen the noise compared to a stock tin valvecover. 


Ron

[69wannabe]

The Comp XE hyd grinds are noisy by design....the aggressive valve action is what creates the valvetrain noise. Most get used to it after awhile. Heavy cast aluminum valvecovers like the MP finned aluminum will dampen the noise compared to a stock tin valvecover. 


Ron

My 493 is a bit noisy with the XE284 comp cam in it. Runs fine and noise is same always so not a worry really. I hear from alot of guy's on here that the comp cam's lifters are junk so I have ordered some from jeg's that are scorpion racing lifters that are the johnson lifters and am planning on swapping them in soon. I have the PRW steel rockers on my engine and have been told that they can produce some noise also. I'm hoping that with a lifter swap my valve train will be a little quieter.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Personally, i have always thought the stock rocker setup was "noisey". The rockers have slop in them and can "wiggle" laterally on the shafts. They are not bushed and no amount of oil or fancy covers will ever stop valvetrain noise on a factory setup in my opinion.
    I would suggest pulling valve covers and making sure none of your hold down spacer ears broke first. I have seen that before with higher lift and higher spring pressures using stock parts. If they are all fine and there is no excessive lateral rocker movement and you still seek peace of mind, then i suggest pulling the valley pan and visually inspect each lifter for the correct preload on base circle. Assuming all checks out, put it back together and enjoy the car.

There are over 3 million applications where they are quiet.  There is no slop in the direction of load, as they are always to be in contact with the under side of the shaft.  There is no measurable side load so that would not be the source of noise.  If the rocker become loose between the shaft and the rocker, that is because it is loose between the push rod and rocker and will make a slap sound with any rocker.   In that case your problem is elsewhere.

Perhaps i was not specific enough. As i had said on his video, i heard nothing abnormal. My definition of "noisey" may be different from 50 other people's idea of noisey. With a stock cam i agree it should be very quiet. But like ron just said, the more agressive cams will have some noise to them. Its the way they are. Once you have changed to a more agressive cam, I see nothing wrong with valvetrain noise that is compared to the old small block chevy mechanical cam sound. I think that is a decent "universal" analogy that most people can relate the sound level to. Thats also why i suggested to him to pop the covers and even the intake to verify everything is in spec as far as lifter preload and rocker adjustment. As long as it is in spec, its most likely going to be the nature of the beast. I beleive you said something similar above as well regarding changing the cam if he wanted it quieter. It is very hard for all of us to judge sound levels from behind our keyboards. Lol.

[XH29N0G]

I appreciate all that everyone has suggested and am not worried.  I will be popping the covers not too far in the future - have some other things to do first - to check, but I don't get the impression that there is a problem.  I also will swap valve covers - just to see whether there is a difference in sound level.  I also would not be hearing this if I had not spent so much time trying to get the exhaust quiet. 

I know what a bad/worn rocker sounds like and I definitely don't have that.  It is just a little more noisy than I was used to with the stock set up.  All I was asking before was whether changing the rockers to something that was adjustable would change things.  In retrospect, it might, but it also might be the wrong thing for someone with my level of expertise to be monkeying with.   

I also spent some time listening to what other people's engines sound like with Comp cams and hear similar things.

I really appreciate all the time that the people on this board have taken to answer questions and discuss.  I have learned a lot in the process.

[Challenger340]

I can't tell in your video... Low Deck 400 based ?....  or RB 440 Block ?
What Stroke ?

All I hear is a bit of rolling noise from Piston Slap... typical with 1.34" CD pistons in "451" 400 Block based Engines using 2618 Alloy Slugs ?
Sorry,
even if it is 440 Block based... all I hear is piston slap(2618 Slugs)

[XH29N0G]

Challenger 340 This is the one you looked at last year.  It is 383 with 3.9 stroke.  The pistons are diamond and do slap some.  I think that was the assessment last time, but also with some valvetrain noise.  Maybe it is all piston slap.   

[Challenger340]

Challenger 340 This is the one you looked at last year.  It is 383 with 3.9 stroke.  The pistons are diamond and do slap some.  I think that was the assessment last time, but also with some valvetrain noise.  Maybe it is all piston slap.   

I did ?
I thought it looked familiar ?
Fawking alzhiemer's must be setting in ?
I can't remember why I ain't apposed to eat 'outa Aluminum pots either ?
Better hide my own Easter Eggs next week !

3.9 Stroke.... what Rod length ?
6.585" ?
No matter....
yep, it's close enough for Piston C.D. length on a 2618 Alloy Slug that you are gonna hear it.
IMO,
you can try adjustable Rockers.... but I don't think you will quiet up anything, it's a rotational thing on the major thrust wall.
Nonetheless,
it'll run forever with no harm done !

About the only "fix" is in hindsight, is potentially a 4032 Alloy could have been used, which can be fit "tighter" to run quieter ? Problem being I don't think anybody offers a Piston for that application in a 4032 "off the shelf".... and typically "customs" or low-numerical apps default to the tougher 2618's... probably why you have them ?
Your Builder was only trying to give you the best, albeit slightly noisier.

Probably turns on like raped lowland gorilla though.......  right ?

[XH29N0G]

It runs great, and I think it is the way it is supposed to be.  Just wanted to have it sound a little more sedate when I went to pick up my dad and Mom this spring.  I bought it from him and they think of it as the old family car  MY dad will be OK (he had me put different stickers on his outboard so mom wouldn't worry too much.)

Thanks for the response. 

[Tom Q]

I hear a noisy valve train and piston slap in the video.
Well...no one has inquired as to how much lifter preload there is.  You guys would be fired if you did tech support for a living.  
It should be 0.020-0.040  [inches] It needs to be measured and corrected if it is incorrect.
It is not difficult to measure it, it more about having the right dial indicator and set up.

[XH29N0G]

Tom,

Thanks for your response.  In the not too distant future (but not the next two weeks) I will pop the valve covers and will check this to be sure it is OK.  I don't expect a problem, but won't know until I check.

[BSB67]

Well...no one has inquired as to how much lifter preload there is.  You guys would be fired if you did tech support for a living.  
It should be 0.020-0.040  [inches] It needs to be measured and corrected if it is incorrect.

Can you explain exactly why the valve train will make more noise if the lifter preload is at 0.010" or 0.045"?  Exactly what in the plunger/valving in the lifter won't work properly?