Are you still opposed to DOH Charger destruction?

[bull]

I was just thinking about this today. They destroyed them for entertainment but the difference now is they become more valuable than they were before they were mangled on camera. Using the most recent/best example of the DOH movie from 10 years ago, as I understand it, all (most?) of the Chargers will be or have been restored. Funny but I guess that's actually a win-win. The only time I'd really be against it is if they just scrapped them after the stunts but anymore that no longer seems to happen. It's definitely a guilty pleasure of mine seeing them get rode hard but at the same time I despise the though of them being tossed.

Have we reached a point in time where we can enjoy seeing them get pounded on without anger or guilt?

[Mike DC]

   
I doubt there will ever be a day when it's widely considered a harmless thing.  Not even if whole Chargers are reproduced.  Not even if people agree that the benefits technically outweigh the losses.

There's too much lingering frustration about DOH's attitude. They killed so many Chargers for 3 seconds of entertainment. 



Auto racing leagues killed way more cars than DOH ever did.  But people don't react the same way to that.  People give it a pass because those cars were wrecked for a "serious" reason (during those 3 seconds of entertainment).

[Ghoste]

I'd say I harbor no ill will towards DOH for cars wrecked during the series just as I harbor none for the ones destroyed in motorsports.  However, if someone were planning to turn their Charger into a dirt track car today or something I would be just as appalled as I am when they do Dukesfest jumps or destroy some for any film production.

[1974dodgecharger]

Who cares the DOH all they had was a camaro.....now the modern DOH had a 69 charger in it with a hemi

[bull]

That said, Ghoste, I cannot disagree but when I saw the Road Kill show's rat rod 68 I have to admit I really like the car and the process they came up with to get it back on the road. Essentially that was my initial plan for my 68 before I decided to strip it all down and spend 9 years restoring it. Maybe it's a minority opinion but I really like the idea of an ugly rat rod Charger you can take anywhere without fearing the dreaded door ding.

[keith88]

With out DOH the Charger would not be what it is today. I know as for me..  i did not even know what one was, if it wasn't for the show when i was a kid I never would have ever heard of a Charger. It is responsible for my 1st 3 cars i bought that ended up being 70 Chargers not to mention the 69 i own now. I hate to see them wrecked like any other fan but am glad that some have been fixed and or restored now. More might have been saved this way than if they knew what we do now.

[Kern Dog]

   
I doubt there will ever be a day when it's widely considered a harmless thing.  Not even if whole Chargers are reproduced.  Not even if people agree that the benefits technically outweigh the losses.
There's too much lingering frustration about DOH's attitude. They killed so many Chargers for 3 seconds of entertainment. 
Auto racing leagues killed way more cars than DOH ever did.  But people don't react the same way to that.  People give it a pass because those cars were wrecked for a "serious" reason (during those 3 seconds of entertainment).

Great point. With less than 500 Chargers combined destroyed in every itineration of the DOH TV show, movies and other features, Fast and Furious, DMCL, Bullitt, there were more lost to everyday owners in collisions, stolen and shipped overseas, rust damage and the like.

[squeakfinder]

 

   How bout we start jumping and destroying Duesenburg's and see how people react. There are only so many out there and they all have homes. Should or could be the same for second generation Chargers wright?

[squeakfinder]

That said, Ghoste, I cannot disagree but when I saw the Road Kill show's rat rod 68 I have to admit I really like the car and the process they came up with to get it back on the road. Essentially that was my initial plan for my 68 before I decided to strip it all down and spend 9 years restoring it. Maybe it's a minority opinion but I really like the idea of an ugly rat rod Charger you can take anywhere without fearing the dreaded door ding.

   




A rat rod Charger would at least give some joy to the owner/driver and casual observer. It's not like the roadkill car was built with the intent of launching it off a ramp and nose diving it into it's grave.

[AKcharger]

I got my chargers, I don['t care

[bill440rt]

This topic has been discussed ad nauseam. 

We're talking about a time period when these cars were nothing but transportation. They were about 10 years old when the show aired, many were already lost through everyday occurrences. The TV show has been off the air for what, 30 YEARS now?? Today is a different era.
At some point the Charger goes from "just another old car" to a collector car. It has value. And if you think the DOH is solely responsible for that you're mistaken. (I say that as a fellow DOH fan.)
Seeing them destroyed for entertainment purposes these days is just plain dumb, IMHO. And I'm not referring to doing stunts, sliding in the dirt, etc. I mean DESTROYED.
I'll watch someone make a rat rod all day long out of one, or watch what's left of a rusted hulk be cut apart to save what's left, or make a race car out of it. At least it's being put to use.

[myk]

I'm just opposed to DOH period...

[bull]

 

   How bout we start jumping and destroying Duesenburg's and see how people react. There are only so many out there and they all have homes. Should or could be the same for second generation Chargers wright?

Your point is taken but Duesenburgs would have zero appeal in that context. It'd be like putting Betty White in a bikini contest. The reputation of the Charger, and most other muscle cars, is just that; muscle. They're expected to duke it out on the circle track, on the drag strip and on the street.

Also, I'd venture to guess there are tons more aftermarket parts for 2nd gens than Duesenburgs. At any rate, I understand what you're getting at but the Charger plays a large iconic role in a specific genre of American history. None of us like seeing them destroyed but all of us enjoy the status it has earned.

[squeakfinder]

  

  Again, only so many. 66 to 74 Chargers look like a work of art to me. No point in encouraging there destruction.





 

  Besides, Betty White is still funny....

[Mike DC]

  
The jumps aren't as car-intensive they once were.


30 years ago they were jumping complete low-rust stock California cars.  

Whereas now it's a lot more rusty stripped-down shells.  Big rollcages are serving as half the structure.  Using hydraulic bumpstops + doing smaller jumps first = one stunt car may do 2-3 jumps before it's dead.  

[twodko]

Yes.

[fy469rtse]

Yes

[tan top]

  yes 

[HPP]

How many would be willing to see Charger values skyrocket to a point that they were economically unfeasible for studios to use?

The reason why they use cars of this era are because they carry with them an inherent  tough guy persona and they are budget friendly, in studio production terms. They buy a dozen cars at $25k each. That's a bargain compared to buying a similar number of exotics to perform the same work.

[Ghoste]

Why does it have to be one or the other?

[Homerr]

I hate seeing any worthwhile car head down the path of destruction. 

My take is that DOH guys love the car because of the show which is fine.  Charger guys love the car and DOH just puts it all out there for all to see the shortened the lifespan of hundreds of cars, it's like immortalizing an abusive father or something to us.

But the reality beyond the show and circle track stuff is that today there are still thousands of Chargers sitting in fields and old junkyards rotting or stuck in a garage and will never see the road again.  Many reasons for this: not thinking the cars are worth anything; not worth enough to save; worth more than anyone is willing to pay; holding on for sentimental reasons; holding on fooling ones self that they will restore that car one day; health issues.  Some will still get destroyed in auto accidents, or fire, or by mother nature.  Some are holding on, barely, by owners with good intentions but low on funds and/or skills.

If it's DOH tribute or the crusher then obviously DOH tribute.  They can always be repainted some day.   

[Mike DC]

The reason why they use cars of this era are because they carry with them an inherent  tough guy persona and they are budget friendly, in studio production terms. They buy a dozen cars at $25k each. That's a bargain compared to buying a similar number of exotics to perform the same work.

The original idea for Eleanor in the "Gone in 60 Seconds" remake was classic Ford GT40s.  They went with the '67 Mustang for cost reasons.

[polywideblock]

why hasn't someone used a real nice 2nd gen as a plug and made a mould of one    

with a fiberglass replica  on a space frame they could kill as many as they like and not impact on our hobby 

[Stevearino]

why hasn't someone used a real nice 2nd gen as a plug and made a mould of one    

with a fiberglass replica  on a space frame they could kill as many as they like and not impact on our hobby 

That has been done. I have come across pictures of a one piece body from time to time on the internet but I  have no link to share at this time.
With 250,000 gen 2's produced I would agree that more have been destroyed by neglect, wrecks and rust than the DOH crowd. While I don't condone the destruction of those cars it is relevant to point to the popularization of the car and how many beyond saving rust buckets were lovingly restored by people who watched that show and drooled over the cars as kids.Just think there are 245,500 left out there. Now hunt them all down and get to work.

[keith88]

You mean this   http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=109499.0

[Mike DC]

why hasn't someone used a real nice 2nd gen as a plug and made a mould of one   scratchchin

with a fiberglass replica  on a space frame they could kill as many as they like and not impact on our hobby

               (borrowing my own comment from the other thread):


The "Knight Rider" crew tried a fiberglass shell jump car back in the day.  It didn't work.  They went back to wrecking brand new Trans Ams after a few months.  

The fiberglass shells weren't absorbing the impact like a steel unibody.  Crumpling metal saves the drivers.  

The shell-cars weren't flying well either.  A car actually flies higher/farther (for a given speed) when it's heavier.

[myk]

I don't get it. If we can CONVINCINGLY craft whole planets, cities, battling armies by the thousands, make Jeff Bridges look 30 years younger and even graft a young Armold Swarzennager's head onto a young weight lifter's body, I don't see why we can't realize a stupid orange car jumping to the audience's content without destroying an actual car.  I'm no tech guy but it can't be that much more difficult, and this way everyone wins...

[Stevearino]

I don't get it. If we can CONVINCINGLY craft whole planets, cities, battling armies by the thousands, make Jeff Bridges look 30 years younger and even graft a young Armold Swarzennager's head onto a young weight lifter's body, I don't see why we can't realize a stupid orange car jumping to the audience's content without destroying an actual car.  I'm no tech guy but it can't be that much more difficult, and this way everyone wins...

Even the new Star Wars movie is shunning CGI for full scale props and sets. So there's that. But I really don't see why it wouldn't be easier and cheaper to hang $10,000.00 of new AMD sheet metal on a purpose built chassis to get what you need rather than destroy a 46 year old original car.
And yes Keith88 that is the car I saw somewhere on the wild interwebs. Thanks for the find.

[myk]

I don't get it. If we can CONVINCINGLY craft whole planets, cities, battling armies by the thousands, make Jeff Bridges look 30 years younger and even graft a young Armold Swarzennager's head onto a young weight lifter's body, I don't see why we can't realize a stupid orange car jumping to the audience's content without destroying an actual car.  I'm no tech guy but it can't be that much more difficult, and this way everyone wins...

Even the new Star Wars movie is shunning CGI for full scale props and sets. So there's that. But I really don't see why it wouldn't be easier and cheaper to hang $10,000.00 of new AMD sheet metal on a purpose built chassis to get what you need rather than destroy a 46 year old original car.

Ironic, considering it was George Lucas and Star Wars that were made synonymous with CGI overkill since the last three movies.  I still say there are other alternatives to actually performing a jump with a car.  The idea of performing a stunt like that seems so anachronistic anyway; almost as if they perform those jumps out of sheer choice "just because" that's how they did it "back in the day." 

Again, I say they maybe use a combination of CGI and your purposefully built frame with AMD sheet  metal; there have to be alternatives to using a real car...

[Ghoste]

It's probably run its course anyway, I can't imagine we'll see much more DOH mayhem.  Now the F&F franchise seems to have life still in it and they don't mind wrecking a car now and again either.

[Mike DC]

  
Let's not lose sight of the bigger picture.  

Big-budget modern filmmaking tears up cars, period.  

The recent DOH movies tore up as many Chargers for non-stunt reasons as they did for stunts.  Duplicating damage on several cars for backups, filming stuff out-of-order, tow rig cars, in-car cameras, soundstage mockups, etc.  


Movie prop cars are little $25,000 parts in a $100,000,000 machine.  They are built VERY quick & dirty because they aren't going to be treated very well.  Same with any other set, prop, costume, etc.













-----------------------------------

I don't get it. If we can CONVINCINGLY craft whole planets, cities, battling armies by the thousands, make Jeff Bridges look 30 years younger and even graft a young Armold Swarzennager's head onto a young weight lifter's body, I don't see why we can't realize a stupid orange car jumping to the audience's content without destroying an actual car.  I'm no tech guy but it can't be that much more difficult, and this way everyone wins..

Cost.  They'll spend $200,000 trying to do a realistic CGI car jump and it still won't look as good as the real thing.

[kab69440]

I submit for consideration the Gone in 60 Seconds reboot. Completely, utterly awesome movie. Right up until the "big jump"...

[myk]

   
Let's not lose sight of the bigger picture. 

Big-budget modern filmmaking tears up cars, period. 

The recent DOH movies tore up as many Chargers for non-stunt reasons as they did for stunts.  Duplicating damage on several cars for backups, filming stuff out-of-order, tow rig cars, in-car cameras, soundstage mockups, etc. 


Movie prop cars are little $25,000 parts in a $100,000,000 machine.  They are built VERY quick & dirty because they aren't going to be treated very well.  Same with any other set, prop, costume, etc.













-----------------------------------

I don't get it. If we can CONVINCINGLY craft whole planets, cities, battling armies by the thousands, make Jeff Bridges look 30 years younger and even graft a young Armold Swarzennager's head onto a young weight lifter's body, I don't see why we can't realize a stupid orange car jumping to the audience's content without destroying an actual car.  I'm no tech guy but it can't be that much more difficult, and this way everyone wins..

Cost.  They'll spend $200,000 trying to do a realistic CGI car jump and it still won't look as good as the real thing.

Maybe so, but unless someone in the know can confirm that for me I will maintain that the CGI route should be an explored option.  IMO they've done far more impressive things with CGI than jumping a car.

I submit for consideration the Gone in 60 Seconds reboot. Completely, utterly awesome movie. Right up until the "big jump"...

Right, but that was over 15 years ago.  Technology has come a long, long way.  If they could produce a "passable and only slightly laughable" car jump with Eleanor I'm sure they could do something even better now with green/blue screens and CGI...

[Mike DC]

COULD car jumps be done photorealistically?  Yes, or pretty close.  Are they likely to do it?  Is it their best option?  No.  


I've got a decades-long interest in movie SFX.  My brother does post-production work for a living.  I can totally see why they prefer the real thing.

CGI effects aren't a magic wand to create anything they want with no other work involved.  They still have to use lots of real methods to work with CGI for the best results.  



First off, making CGI look realistic probably means some other real car gets jumped for the CGI guys reference the flight path.  That's by far the best way to avoid the "Gone in 60 Seconds" jump problems.  It could be an '86 Caprice Classic but they would want to launch something.  So that still brings most of the costs of a real General Lee jump right there.

Or else maybe they do the whole thing with a HUGE miniature.  I'm talking a car that's 4-6 feet long (not to mention costing 5 figures to build).   They would probably need a detailed miniature backdrop the size of a basketball court just for the car to interact with, even if that entire miniature backdrop still gets CGI'd into a larger real location later.  They could do it smaller but the size is what makes some miniatures look so much better than others.

Either of those options costs a lot and the realism still may be compromised.



On the other hand, they could cable-launch a $10k bondo-buggy of a real Charger . . .  do it unmanned to eliminate safety issues . . . landing without a heavy drivetrain & trunk ballast means they would probably even get 2-3 takes out of it with some repair work . . . no investment in post-production time & money . . . no realism concerns . . . see why this keeps looking like the best option? 

[Kern Dog]

I submit for consideration the Gone in 60 Seconds reboot. Completely, utterly awesome movie. Right up until the "big jump"...

I agree that the jump looked like shit. The rest of the movie wasn't that great in my view. It was a bit like an "Oceans eleven" with more likeable characters but the car action was lacking.