a/c compressor - seeing smoke

[Stegs]

ok guys, since the weather has been nice here for 'winter" i went out to start up the car and let it run for a bit

i started the car and a few min after i started it i seen smoke from under the hood

I quick ran to shut the car off and then went to pop the hood.

My a/c compressor was smoking. The a/c switch is off inside the car, so i dont know what happend or whats going on.

I see sparks flying out from the front side of the compressor (closest to radiator) and the whole unit starts smoking


I ran my car about 2-3 weeks ago and it didnt do this at all.....


what do you think happened? why did it start doing this?

[Pete in NH]

Hi,

It sounds like the compressor  clutch is coming apart. Can you post a picture of the A/C compressor and clutch on the front of it. If the compressor is the original Chrysler RV type, the clutch can be replaced. Although they are getting a bit pricey and hard to find. If it is a newer axial type, it is often more cost effective to replace the whole compressor. Anyway, post a few pictures and lets see what you have under there.

[Stegs]

i will never ever use the factory a/c

so im wondering if we could pull "the guts" out of it, but still leave the pulley so it looks original, but the internals are gone

The smoke is coming from where the 2 belts attach, the unit that has the chrysler tag on it is fine, its just the part that spins is what is making the smoke

i will get pics tonight and see if i can upload them tomorrow

and im 99% sure its the original a/c b/c this was a factory a/c car to start with

[Pete in NH]

Okay, if it is original and has a Chrysler tag on it, it is an RV type compressor. On a big block engine the A/C compressor drive belts also drive your alternator. So, you have two choices, 1- replace the A/C compressor clutch or 2- convert the whole drive pulley system over to a non A/C configuration. Converting it over is possible but you'll need to find quite a few bits and pieces to do that.

There is a big bearing in that clutch assembly that has likely failed. There is a good chance the clutch assembly is damaged beyond repair or further use even if you replaced that bearing. I think I would just replace the clutch assembly, which is not hard to do.

[Stegs]

yea it does have the big chrysler tag on it

can i just take what i have now and just pull the guts out and keep the look?


I really dont want to get rid of the a/c setup b/c from i read thats a pretty neat option to have on a car


But i dont want to stick all kinds of money into a new one when i wont ever use it....


if it did have to replace it, can i do just the pulley? if i can, how much do you think it will cost?



any why do you think it siezed up randomly like this? i ran this car about 2-3 weeks ago and it idled for 20 min atleast with no issues....when i started the car up saturday it ran for 1 min and then i noticed smoke

[Pete in NH]

The part you are looking for is a Four Seasons 48833. Rock Auto catalogs it at $144 as a remanufactured part. As I mentioned they are getting pricey and hard to find. I suspect the bearing in your original part finally ran out of grease after many years and seized up. Maybe someone who has an old clutch assembly will see this thread. If you can find a clutch assembly you can put a new bearing in it and use it. Although the bearings themselves are getting pricey also.

[Stegs]

http://www.hubgarage.com/mygarage/classicmoparguy/blogs/32473

here is what i have, if you look at the picture, you will see the round plate closest to the radiator, thats where i seen a few sparks

basically from where the 2 belts are forward (to the radiator) is what is smoking, the unit with the tag is fine on mine

i will look those parts up right now

edit, that part you listed is exactly what is smoking on mine! thank you for posting that...and that price isnt cheap, but its better than i was expecting

will that part be a easy bolt on assembly, or is there other parts i need to order in conjunction with this?

[Pete in NH]

It's a bolt on and easy to do. There is a magnetic coil under the clutch assembly that I would check for damage when you remove the old clutch. If you want to get the A/C working sometime in the future that coil needs to be undamaged. You won't know until you get in there.

To remove the old clutch remove the belts and remove the bolt in the center of the clutch hub. Then thread a 5/8"-11 bolt into the center of the clutch hub. keep the hub from turning and use the bolt to press the clutch hub off the compressor shaft. Be careful not to loose the woodruff key in the compressor shaft as the clutch hub comes off.

It's all in the factory service manual in the A/C- heat section.

[Stegs]

great, i will look into it more tonight when i get home....talking with a co worker here he says to check and see if i can spin that pulley assembly manually when i loosen the belts

i hope its not the actually compressor itself.....

[Pete in NH]

If the A/C was not turned on electrically you should be okay on the compressor itself. If the clutch was turned on electrically then that's a whole other story, then you do need to know if the compressor is locked up.

[Stegs]

If the A/C was not turned on electrically you should be okay on the compressor itself. If the clutch was turned on electrically then that's a whole other story, then you do need to know if the compressor is locked up.

the a/c has never been turned on....ever....

like i said i had the car out a few weeks ago running for about 30 min with no problems

saturday i start up the car again and within 30 seconds i see smoke coming from that pulley assembly...


never once turned on the air, all the "controls" on the dash are pulled all the way out, and i never touch any of them for this reason

This was just a random thing....car hasnt been touched since the last time i started it

[John_Kunkel]

If in doubt whether or not the clutch was energized, simply disconnect the wire from the compressor...if the sparks stop the clutch was the problem. Use a 1/2" wrench on the bolt in the center of the clutch to see if the compressor will turn, if it does the compressor is OK.

There is a bearing inside the clutch pulley that turns when the clutch isn't engaged and this is probably the source of your problem. The bearing can be replaced separately from the compressor.

[Stegs]

ok guys just came in from working on it


the 2 grooves for the belt spin freely, and there seems to be a outer case that spins too with the belts

the inside part does not spin at all. I removed the belts, took out the center bolt and that inner section will not budge..... is the compressor shot? or can I order that pulley set up from rock auto and be ok?

Im reading thru the repair manual and it list a 5/8-11 (like listed earlier in the thread to get the pulleys off.)

if I cant move that inner section at all, will that 5/8 bolt still be able to remove it from the compressor?

please tell me im still ok and that its a easy fix!!

[rt green]

I might have one here in Sioux falls for you. i'll look in the morning.

[Stegs]

I might have one here in Sioux falls for you. i'll look in the morning.

that would be great, I guess im confused on a few things

1. that bolt i need to remove the pulley assembly.....how does that work? my manual says thread it in and as i do the pulley will come off....is that a special reverse thread bolt or something 

2. Knowing that the outside case of the pulley (where the belts are) spins freely, the inside part does not. How do i know if the clutches are bad inside or just the bearing?
according to my manual there is a bearing inside near the compressor itself .....could that have seized up? how do i tell?


i guess what i really need to know if i can order that part from rock auto, will that fix my issue im having now? if it will, i will order that part today

[rt green]

when seeing the pic you posted of the compresser, I thought you were from Lakeville mn.   also, normally you need a puller to remove the clutch. look up a puller and you should be able to see how its done. I think I have a whole set up off a 318.  hell, I thought you just lived down the road from me.

[Stegs]

unfortunetly im not down the road from you! but thanks for the offer!!


getting back to where i am.....

if i go get this bolt that i need 5/8-11x2.5 cap screw (according to manual)

This bolt will remove the pulley from the compressor shaft correct? of do i need to get a pulley puller to get it off?

then i can see at that point if the shaft spins or not

[Pete in NH]

Good Morning,

The 5/8-11 bolt should press off the clutch as the bolt is tightened in a clockwise direction. It should be a standard bolt thread, not a reverse thread. It may take a socket on a 1/2" breaker bar to turn that bolt and press off the clutch. Those things can really be on there tight, especially if it hasn't been removed in 40+ years. If the outer section of the clutch turns smoothly and freely the bearing in the clutch is very likely okay.

Before you try to remove the clutch, put the original bolt back in the center of the clutch hub and tighten it. Then put a socket and breaker bar on it and try to turn it in a clockwise direction. This should turn the compressor shaft. If it doesn't turn, the compressor is locked up. This would be a bit of a mystery as you say the electric clutch has never been energized. This is the only way to turn the compressor. Unless, for some mechanical reason the clutch locked up and turned the compressor. If the compressor is indeed locked up it is now scrap metal. Good luck and let us know what you find.

[Stegs]

Good Morning,

The 5/8-11 bolt should press off the clutch as the bolt is tightened in a clockwise direction. It should be a standard bolt thread, not a reverse thread. It may take a socket on a 1/2" breaker bar to turn that bolt and press off the clutch. Those things can really be on there tight, especially if it hasn't been removed in 40+ years. If the outer section of the clutch turns smoothly and freely the bearing in the clutch is very likely okay.

Before you try to remove the clutch, put the original bolt back in the center of the clutch hub and tighten it. Then put a socket and breaker bar on it and try to turn it in a clockwise direction. This should turn the compressor shaft. If it doesn't turn, the compressor is locked up. This would be a bit of a mystery as you say the electric clutch has never been energized. This is the only way to turn the compressor. Unless, for some mechanical reason the clutch locked up and turned the compressor. If the compressor is indeed locked up it is now scrap metal. Good luck and let us know what you find.

thank you so much for your help!

when i get home tonight i will put a breaker bar on the center bolt and see if it will turn. I will report back later tonight to let you know what i found.

I know 100% that the back of the pulleys where the belt goes spins free.....just the center section does not....

and this will be a mystery, b.c i have never touched the controls inside for the a/c or heat....i know those are all operated by vacuum and i last thing i want is a vac leak

[Stegs]

update

tried turning the center bolt clockwise with a socket, but it didnt budge, so i figured it was the compressor


but, being the dummy that i am, I did not remove the belts when i tried.....


so i will do that tonight when i get home


2 more questions

is there a chance (if i cant move it with a wrench) that the bearing siezed to the shaft and the compressor is ok?

if the entire thing is shot, what are my options? do they make reproduction compressors? I hate to spend alot of money on something i will never use

[Pete in NH]

Hi.

If the clutch assembly is all seized up and you have the belts on, your going to be trying to turn over the whole engine by hand. So, yes, remove the belts. With the belts off, even if the whole clutch assembly is seized up the compressor shaft should still turn. In this case you will see the whole clutch assembly turn, both inner and outer hubs. If it still doesn't turn the compressor is frozen up. The RV-2 compressors have an oil sump and oil pump in them and are self lubricating, provided there is oil in it. If you can't turn the inner hub of the clutch by the clutch retention bolt the compressor is seized. The RV-2 is like a small lawn mower engine and you should be able to turn it by hand. You should feel some spots in the rotation as it goes through its compression cycle where it is harder to turn.

Worst case if both the compressor and clutch are bad your looking at something between $250-$300 to replace both. The RV-2's are getting a bit hard to find and I've only seen rebuilds available. If you don't really want the A/C working just look for a used RV-2 and clutch assembly. Myself, I would get the A/C back in operation, there's nothing wrong with cold air in the summer time!

There is always the option of converting the pulley/belt system to a non A/C configuration but that can turn into a real pain finding all the parts.

[Stegs]

i will pull the belts off again tonight and try to turn it by hand

im going to get the bolt i need to remove the pulley and see what we have

I did find re-man parts....id even be happy to have my compressor tore apart just enough to get the shaft to spin

ill see what happens tonight

thanks again for the help

[Stegs]

update:

took the belts off, put a socket on the center bolt and it wouldnt budge


got the 5/8-11 bolt thread in (what a pain) and the pulley came off no problems 

now, there is a "drum" on the compressor shaft, wont turn by hand so i put a oil filter wrench on it and it still wont budge


good and bad news comes with this

Bad news is now im 99% sure the compressor siezed

good news is, i have been trying to track down a oil leak, i had the power steering pump rebuilt last year thinking that was it.....now that i got the pulley off i can see that its oily behind the a/c compressor. Now i think i found where the oil leak is coming from. I think the compressor leaked out all the oil, it ran down the block and dripped on my power steering pump, which basically threw oil everywhere (making it hard to determine the source)

so if i get a re-man compressor from rock auto, that will give me time to clean up the block and power steering pump and hopefully be the source of my mystery oil 

[Pete in NH]

Good Morning,

Well, it certainly sounds like the compressor is seized up. I'm not sure what you mean by a "drum" still being on the compressor shaft. It sounds like the clutch actually came apart in two pieces or what you are looking at is the electro- magnet coil that energizes the clutch. That magnet is held on to the compressor with three screws. I can believe the oil in the compressor leaked out but, if the clutch was not energized the compressor should not have been turning. You will have to transfer that coil to the new compressor and I would check it with an ohm meter before you do that. The wire on the coil should have a 4 or 5 ohm resistance to ground if the coil is good.

Replacing both the compressor and clutch is going to make for an expensive idler pulley for the alternator. Some reman. compressors come with oil in them some do not so, you'll need to check that before you install it. RV-2 compressors do not come with clutches installed like newer compressors do, so you need to order both pieces. You might try to find them locally as shipping is going to be expensive as they are both heavy pieces.

I can walk you through the installation when you get the parts.

[Stegs]

yea the compressor siezed up for sure, and yes there is what i call a drum stuck to the compressor shaft....its basically the back side of the center portion of the clutch.

just imagine a bowl stuck on a shaft....the bottom of the bowl is towards the compressor and the top (open side) is where the clutch would slide into

i never touched touched the a/c switch ever, but i did notice that my ground wire from the negative side of the battery had broke at a connection....maybe that had something to do with it? like the connection was broke and when i started it it just disconnected enough to engage the a/c??


what i plan on doing is ordering a new compressor and pulley from rock auto, both are about 145 dollars....so with shipping probably just over 300ish for both the compressor and pulley (yes a very expensive way just to get a idler pulley) but i want it to look like its suppose too

I will call rock auto to see if that compressor will ship with oil or not, I dont plan on hooking up the blue wire that is on the compressor....maybe i will tuck that in somewhere so it looks hooked up but it isnt....i cant afford to had this happen to me all the time

as far as installation, i think its as simple as unbolt the compressor from the bracket....while im waiting for a new compressor to arrive i will spend some time cleaning the motor to see if the a/c compressor was leaking oil, and thats what my power steering pump was throwing everywhere  

when the new stuff arrives, can i just bolt the pulley to the ac and install all as 1?

also id assume i have to order a new bearing? or will one of the items ship with the bearings needed?

here is the back side of the pulley

http://s1102.photobucket.com/user/mrmarlin1/media/1218387.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0