WWII aviation mystery I've tried for years to solve

[bull]

For years I've been trying to verify the authenticity of this painting to find out if it is based on real events and to get all the details if it is legit. From memory the story goes that some British attack aircraft were doing a strafing run on some German targets when the lead plane was hit on the starboard engine. Due to its low elevation the power loss sent it straight to the ground but it bounced off the deck and the adept pilot was able to gain altitude and return to base on the one remaining engine.

I saw this painting for sale in an aviation magazine years ago and just today I was able to find it again. Unfortunately there's no info to go with it.

http://www.wallcoo.net/paint/Air_Combat_Art_02/Air%20Combat%20Art%200104.html

[Drache]

July 4, 1942

Captain Charles C. Kegelman was flying an A-20 borrowed from the RAF (American Aircraft although in the RAF).

To make the story even better, while flying with one engine after the bounce he flew straight at the closest Anti Aircraft Flak tower and destroyed it with the nose guns!

For this he earned the Distinguished Service Cross.

2 years later he was killed at age 29 when an allied plane collided with his midair.

[bull]

Nice! What's the source?

[Drache]

Nice! What's the source?

A lot of reading over the years. But give me a sec and....

http://projects.militarytimes.com/citations-medals-awards/recipient.php?recipientid=31588

[bull]

  Excellent. Thanks a bunch!

[Drache]

Excellent. Thanks a bunch!

Anytime! Stories like these need to be shared!

[bull]

Exactly right. The snippet I wrote in my initial post was all I could remember from the magazine description and I've been kicking myself for not writing it down or saving it somehow.

It's an unbelievable feat if you ask me. To hit the ground like that and still be able to save it is just incredible. And somehow the port prop didn't hit the ground and get damaged. Nothing short of a miracle really.

[polywideblock]

that's a hell of a story       I'd be remiss if I didn't  point out that the plane in the pic is a glass nose not a gunship

[bull]

Are you saying it's the wrong plane for this type of mission? It may have been an impromptu mission or a mid-mIssion improvise. Sounds as if it there was some spontanaity involved since it was an American pilot in an RAF plane.

[stripedelete]

Google a-20.    Looks like there are two flavors.   The glass may have been the bomber set-up.   No glass - fighter?

[Drache]

I'd be remiss if I didn't  point out that the plane in the pic is a glass nose not a gunship

Not sure what you're getting at?

If you're suggesting that the A-20 with the glass nose didn't have forward facing guns;

The light bomber variant of the A-20 Havoc had a glass nose. On either side of the glass nose was the forward fix mounted .303 machine guns. A machine gun on each side stuck out of the body itself. Then there was a pod that stuck out from the body that held another machine gun on each side. Some models took the pods off and left it down to two machine guns instead of the four.

The Night Fighter variants without the glass nose instead all four machine guns mounted dead center of the nose.

Here is a light bomber variant of the A-20 being worked on. The yellow covers are covering the two machine guns on the starboard side.

[polywideblock]

what I was saying was that it wasn't one of these   

would be interesting to know if it was a MK1 or MK 2 BOSTON as the difference between 2x 303's and 4x 303's is fairly large 

[Drache]

what I was saying was that it wasn't one of these    

would be interesting to know if it was a MK1 or MK 2 BOSTON as the difference between 2x 303's and 4x 303's is fairly large  

MkIII actually. Better armored, larger fuel tanks, 4x .303 machine guns in the nose

MY understanding though is that the only difference between the MkI and MkII was the engine type, not the forward mounted guns.

[Mytur Binsdirti]

And in another WWII avaiatonhistory, this guy just passed away a couple of weeks ago.

http://www.uasvision.com/2014/01/09/wwii-pilot-who-flew-through-eiffel-tower/

[polywideblock]

what I was saying was that it wasn't one of these   

would be interesting to know if it was a MK1 or MK 2 BOSTON as the difference between 2x 303's and 4x 303's is fairly large 

MkIII actually. Better armored, larger fuel tanks, 4x .303 machine guns in the nose

MY understanding though is that the only difference between the MkI and MkII was the engine type, not the forward mounted guns.

you could very well be right       it was 4 in the morning after all 

for those interested in this sort of thing this is   a very good read 

loosely based around the first " b25 gunships" built in northern Australia from scrap and stolen ordinance    that were so successful that the factory's started churning them out

[tan top]

interesting stuff , 
   bit of usless info , I use to do  jigsaw puzzles  with those sort of pictures !  WW2 aircraft etc   when  I was about 5 or 6  mid 70s
then I saw DMCL  , Bullet , then DOH on TV & the rest is history 

[John_Kunkel]

MkIII actually. Better armored, larger fuel tanks, 4x .303 machine guns in the nose

Machine guns in the nose aren't nearly as destructive as a 75MM cannon in the nose (B25G).

[Drache]

MkIII actually. Better armored, larger fuel tanks, 4x .303 machine guns in the nose

Machine guns in the nose aren't nearly as destructive as a 75MM cannon in the nose (B25G).

That is true but the Germans did it right:




Unlike the 75mm on the B-25, the Germans 75mm on the Hs129-B3 was Semi/Full auto (The B-25 was hand loaded) and had a much longer barrel with a 12 round rotary magazine. 

[polywideblock]

   this gives a better idea of the workings






                late war German engineering was so far ahead of its time its not funny  

edit well they were bigger on my screen   
                                                   

[ACUDANUT]

http://projects.militarytimes.com/citations-medals-awards/recipient.php?recipientid=31588

[Drache]

http://projects.militarytimes.com/citations-medals-awards/recipient.php?recipientid=31588

You're a little late to the party there 'nut, check the third reply 

[wingcar]

Too bad the Hs129 had engine issues throughout its operational career which made it a less effective aircraft.  I may be mistaken but I believe the engines were of French design and perhaps were even built in France.
 
The deadliest cannon equipped German aircraft on the Eastern front was the Stuka JU-87....as long as it had air cover.  The highest scoring tank destroyer, Hans-Ulrich Rudel had over 500 tank kills, over 800 vehicles, in addition to a Soviet destroyer, two cruisers, and a battleship.  He was also an Ace having downed nine aircraft.  Too bad he was a diehard Nazi until the day he died. 

[bull]

The ugly German plane reminded me of a point I wanted to make. Performance and firepower aside for a second, one thing I doubt anyone can deny is that WWII American planes were always the best looking planes in the sky. You know, it's odd when you think about it. You'd think form would have zero priority compared to function in 42-45 WWII but the US produced some of the best looking planes ever made during that war.

[Drache]

Performance and firepower aside for a second, one thing I doubt anyone can deny is that WWII American planes were always the best looking planes in the sky. You know, it's odd when you think about it. You'd think form would have zero priority compared to function in 42-45 WWII but the US produced some of the best looking planes ever made during that war.

The top three best looking fighters in my opinion (no particular order):

~ BF-109
~ Supermarine Spitfire
~ P-51 Mustang

[bull]

The 109 is a good looking plane but no effen way is it better looking than a P-51. Just my

[AKcharger]

BF-109
- Produced in Higher numbers (34,000)
- Had More air-to -air kills
- Produced more Aces (many 100+)
- Flown Primarily by the highest scoring Aces in history Hartmann 353, Barkhorn 301 and Rall 275

Than any aircraft in History...bet ya' never heard that before but the winners write the history books :-)

[AKcharger]

Oh wait... the IL-2 beat the production #'s they had 36K built, but most were shot down by BF-109's :-)

[Drache]

BF-109
- Produced in Higher numbers (34,000)
- Had More air-to -air kills
- Produced more Aces (many 100+)
- Flown Primarily by the highest scoring Aces in history Hartmann 353, Barkhorn 301 and Rall 275

Than any aircraft in History...bet ya' never heard that before but the winners write the history books :-)

The only thing that stopped the BF-109 is the small fuel tanks. Over European soil they were fine. But flying all the way to Britain didn't leave much in the tanks for dog fighting to protect their bombers.

I remember reading that once over Britain, BF-109 pilots had only minutes to dog fight then start heading home or they wouldn't make it.

[Drache]

The mustang won in the overall speed of most Propeller Fighter planes in WWII. The 109 could easily out maneuver the Mustang with it's roll rate along with low speed handling.

They were matched competitors. Neither of them came out ahead of each other. 

[polywideblock]

the long nosed FW190 butcher bird was the nicest looking  piston driven  ww2 fighter       but the ME 262 was just plain beautiful

  allied fighter its gota be the p47  thunderbolt    followed by the British mosquito  no arguing with 4x 303's and 4x 20mm cannon 

[AKcharger]

Oh, never realized we had some Aircraft historians here...cool! I read a book "no room for error" about the birth of the Israeli Air Force. Amazing story of how they got old BF-109's and B-17's to start off their AF. So in 1947 BF-109's and Spitfires were still Squaring off!

[polywideblock]

getting slightly of topic  but on the same sort of thing, did you know that the Syrians used reconditioned panzer 4's and stug 3's against Israeli tanks . so during the 6 day war( 1967) panzers and Sherman's squared of against each other again     

[Troy]

Based on looks, I'd take a Corsair over just about any of them. I love P-47s too for some reason. I made a rubber band powered one out of balsa wood and tissue paper when I was a kid. Shaping that nose was a lot of fun!

Troy

[ACUDANUT]

F4u Corsair
P-51 mustang
P-38 Lighting

Beat any propeller driven plane in it's day.

[AKcharger]

getting slightly of topic  but on the same sort of thing, did you know that the Syrians used reconditioned panzer 4's and stug 3's against Israeli tanks . so during the 6 day war( 1967) panzers and Sherman's squared of against each other again     

No Way! never heard that! Cool!

[HPP]

Smithsonian channel has a neat show this season about the making of the movie "Fury". Seems they took the last remaining, running Tiger out in the field to film scenes with a couple of running Shermans. Said the crew was jaw dropping impressed with the size, sound, and motions of the originals squaring off again.

[Drache]

Smithsonian channel has a neat show this season about the making of the movie "Fury". Seems they took the last remaining, running Tiger out in the field to film scenes with a couple of running Shermans. Said the crew was jaw dropping impressed with the size, sound, and motions of the originals squaring off again.

Tiger 131! Would love to get to ride in it once before I day

[ACUDANUT]

Smithsonian channel has a neat show this season about the making of the movie "Fury". Seems they took the last remaining, running Tiger out in the field to film scenes with a couple of running Shermans. Said the crew was jaw dropping impressed with the size, sound, and motions of the originals squaring off again.

Tiger 131! Would love to get to ride in it once before I day

We sure had some piss poor tanks in WWII.  I have heard of D Day, but I day ? lol

[John_Kunkel]

the long nosed FW190 butcher bird was the nicest looking  piston driven  ww2 fighter    

You can keep a penny of that, no better looking/sounding piston warbird than the P-51D.

[Drache]

the long nosed FW190 butcher bird was the nicest looking  piston driven  ww2 fighter    

You can keep a penny of that, no better looking/sounding piston warbird than the P-51D.

Really? They sound nearly identical 

[polywideblock]

the long nosed FW190 butcher bird was the nicest looking  piston driven  ww2 fighter    

You can keep a penny of that, no better looking/sounding piston warbird than the P-51D.

just something about the lines of the FW 190      

                                                                               

of the  us fighters  I've   always been attracted to the p47 myself     sort of like our cars BIG and powerful  

[68CoronetRT]

I'm a HUGE WW2 aircraft buff. I do play this game online for free that is being developed by Russians. What I enjoy most about this game is that the developers post stories/monthly ace blogs. If you read through this link you can see alot of topics that might be of interest .http://warthunder.com/en/news/

I've actually learned alot about armament etc... just from playing the game. They also include planes that were prototypes which is cool to see, also alot of plane variations. In example the P-51-D30 and D5, the 109 F4/F4 Trop, E3, K4 etc etc...

Just reading through those blogs is cool in itself. They spend alot of time posting them.

Edit: Talking about the HS129, here is a write up about it. http://warthunder.com/en/news/2689-ugly-ducklings-hs-129-en

[ACUDANUT]

I'm a HUGE WW2 aircraft buff. I do play this game online for free that is being developed by Russians. What I enjoy most about this game is that the developers post stories/monthly ace blogs. If you read through this link you can see alot of topics that might be of interest .http://warthunder.com/en/news/

I've actually learned alot about armament etc... just from playing the game. They also include planes that were prototypes which is cool to see, also alot of plane variations. In example the P-51-D30 and D5, the 109 F4/F4 Trop, E3, K4 etc etc...

Just reading through those blogs is cool in itself. They spend alot of time posting them.

Edit: Talking about the HS129, here is a write up about it. http://warthunder.com/en/news/2689-ugly-ducklings-hs-129-en

What is this free web site.? Where do you live, it's not listed in your profile. Is it top secret or something..?  What harm does it do to list a state or country. Are you launching a Web. Worm ?  Are you a commie spy ?

[Drache]

I'm a HUGE WW2 aircraft buff. I do play this game online for free that is being developed by Russians. What I enjoy most about this game is that the developers post stories/monthly ace blogs. If you read through this link you can see alot of topics that might be of interest .http://warthunder.com/en/news/

Was in the closed beta. Now helping beta test the tanks section 

[68CoronetRT]

What is this free web site.? Where do you live, it's not listed in your profile. Is it top secret or something..?  What harm does it do to list a state or country. Are you launching a Web. Worm ?  Are you a commie spy ?
[/quote]

Huh? lol. I'm from Socal. It's a game... chill out.

I'm a HUGE WW2 aircraft buff. I do play this game online for free that is being developed by Russians. What I enjoy most about this game is that the developers post stories/monthly ace blogs. If you read through this link you can see alot of topics that might be of interest .http://warthunder.com/en/news/

Was in the closed beta. Now helping beta test the tanks section 

Very cool! It does teach you alot about planes and whatnot...

[ACUDANUT]

I was teasing.  Do you have a link to the site ?

[Drache]

I was teasing.  Do you have a link to the site ?

www.warthunder.com

[ACUDANUT]

Ok, so I have to "create an account", then what do I do ?
Is it man vs. machine, or man vs. man. ?
Thanks

[Drache]

Ok, so I have to "create an account", then what do I do ?
Is it man vs. machine, or man vs. man. ?
Thanks

You download the game. It's man vs. man

You either can fight using Planes or Tanks. Soon they will bring in Ships as well.

[John_Kunkel]

Along the lines of the OP, another story we all know bites the dust.

http://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/memphis-belle-v-b-24-hot-stuff-history-came-celebrate-wrong-wwii-warbird.html

[spoolinhard]

I have always been and always will be a fan of the p-38. The twin booms are unmistakable.

[AKcharger]

Along the lines of the OP, another story we all know bites the dust.

http://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/memphis-belle-v-b-24-hot-stuff-history-came-celebrate-wrong-wwii-warbird.html

Hmmm interesting! Seems like B-24's always were the black sheep, they never got the recognition they deserved

[polywideblock]

how do you think they took  being told that your "gals " name wasn't PC(hells angels ) and you just get to go back to war

[ACUDANUT]

It's amazing what the Aussie's built and did in WWII...Nothing  

[HPP]

how do you think they took  being told that your "gals " name wasn't PC(hells angels ) and you just get to go back to war

The "Hells Angels" crew was actually positively viewed by the public at the time due to a 1927 Howard Hughes film of a mythical WW1 fighter squad of the same name, which is where the B17 crew took the moniker from. However, later in 1943 the Army was forced to take a stand on aircraft names after an air crew member of "Murder Inc" was captured in Germany and paraded before the camera crews in his flight jacket. Played right into the propaganda machine of the time. So there were probably a number of crews who were told to change their gals' names.

[polywideblock]

It's amazing what the Aussie's built and did in WWII...Nothing  

if it wasn't for the aussies you wouldn't of had "gunships" at all!!  their idea and built/modified  in Townsville QLD ( look it up )    

[Slowpoke]

Our friends down under did build a fighter in WW2, the CAC Boomerang They built 250 in three different marks.

[polywideblock]

 don't forget the  wirraway     

[rt green]

the aussies helped out quite a bit in the war. I'd hate to think how much longer the war would have lasted without them.

[AKcharger]

Go ANZAC's!!

[polywideblock]

 

                  a lot of people forget that in 1940 Australia was  a nation that  was 39 years old (federation 1901 )   and had only been on the continent 150 years first fleet  17 88        I think we've done alright   


                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rats_of_Tobruk



                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kokoda_Track_campaign

"Although the defenders were poorly trained, outnumbered and under-resourced, the resistance was such that, according to captured documents, the Japanese believed they had defeated a force more than 1,200 strong when, in fact, they were facing only 77 Australian troops"

                       

[500Jon]

All WW2 pilots and Airmen are hero's in my book!

Fighters got the praise but Bombers did the dirty work!!!
Hurricanes did alot of graft but Spitfires got the Glory.
Alot of overseas pilots flew for us limeys and they were darn good.
American bombers were big and fairly slow so those guys were brave!!!
They were easy pickings for good German fighters and pilots.

First World War Soldiers and Second World war Airmen, all Hero's to the last.

We will never forget them and their sacrifice for Freedom in Europe.

[ACUDANUT]

Anyone seen the movie "unbroken" yet ? 

[Troy]

BF-109
- Produced in Higher numbers (34,000)
- Had More air-to -air kills
- Produced more Aces (many 100+)
- Flown Primarily by the highest scoring Aces in history Hartmann 353, Barkhorn 301 and Rall 275

Than any aircraft in History...bet ya' never heard that before but the winners write the history books :-)

I mentioned this over Christmas to a relative and he reminded me that German pilots had several more years to rack up kills and they also were fighting against countries with very crude air power early on (like Poland).

Quote from Wikipedia:

More aerial kills were made with the Bf 109 than any other aircraft of World War II. Many of the aerial victories were accomplished against poorly trained and badly organized Soviet forces in 1941 during Operation Barbarossa. The Soviets lost 21,200 aircraft at this time, about half to combat.

Troy

[bull]

Remember this thing? http://aircraft-in-focus.com/north-american-f-82-twin-mustang/

[Slowpoke]

Sure Bull, The Air force flew those F-82's in Korea as night fighters. Looked like a P-51 twinned but they have longer and deeper fuselages.

[polywideblock]

while were on weird ones how about the Dornier do 335   commissioned in 1944 and capable of    776 kmh     

[stripedelete]

Anyone seen the movie "unbroken" yet ? 

It's awful!  Ageleana screwed the pooch.   It not just a case where the book was better.  They did a terrible job of telling only 1/4 of his story.

Imo, the story is just too big for a movie,  it should have been a TV mini series.    Done right, it would be in the class of Band of Brothers.

[ACUDANUT]

 Thanks, I'll read the book 1st.