22 Nascar wins for the Charger 500 only 6 for the Daytonas

[500Jon]

Where are all the winning/competing Charger 500's???

Are there any threads about them please?

Thanx Johnny!

[500Jon]

Here's NOT one, the MULE-Car!!!

Hemi 4-speed XS vin tag, why wasn't it converted to a racecar when the hemi and trans got stolen?

Johnny

[Highbanked Hauler]

 I think the only 500 to win a race was one of the 125 qualifiers at Daytona but I don't remember witch car it was.

[Ghoste]

I thought a lot of the 500 race car conversions were modified into wing cars, no?

[odcics2]

I thought a lot of the 500 race car conversions were modified into wing cars, no?

Yes, indeed!    

[odcics2]

Here's NOT one, the MULE-Car!!!

Hemi 4-speed XS vin tag, why wasn't it converted to a racecar when the hemi and trans got stolen?

Johnny

Do you have a copy of the "Supercars" book?   (Daytona & Superbird story - from the mid 90s)  Frank Wylie mentions the history...
The actual stolen - recovered Charger 500 press car WAS hauled over to Nichels Engineering and converted to a Charger 500 race car.
It rolled out of the shop, 3rd week of November, 1968.
Serial number DC-93.   (better known as #88 a year later with the added nose & wing)

The red car Cotton had could have been the car that Creative used for mock up purposes...
The history is a bit foggy. 

[69_500]

Does anyone actually know the VIN to the Cotton 500?

[odcics2]

I think a guy named Ron McDaniels owns it. He may live in S.C.  Not sure.

I went around and around with him years ago when he insisted that Cotton Owens prepped the 88 to go 200...   
One day, Ron told me that  Cotton fessed up that he was not there and had nothing to do with it.  This was before the video that blew that lie out of the water.

[Aero426]

I think the only 500 to win a race was one of the 125 qualifiers at Daytona but I don't remember witch car it was.

Isaac won the second 125 miler.   The only heavy hitting Ford in his race was Petty. 

The other 125 had factory Fords finishing 1-2-3-4-5 and 9th.   

[500Jon]

C500 won most races under ONE MILE and even dirt courses!
Yep only one win over the longer distances.
Even better than the Fords LoL!

Are there any 500's left in racecar trim?
I've found 'two' that are now Daytona Rcacecars.
They won't ever be put back to their 500 status.
I'm sure there are many more in different guises?

500Jon

[wingcar]

Charger 500:  22 race wins (most all on short tracks) (69-70)
Daytona Charger:  6 race wins (another 2 in USAC) (69-71)
Plymouth Superbird:  8 race wins (another 7 in USAC and 2 in ARCA Series) (70-72)

I find it somewhat funny when I read that the wingcars were removed from the tracks by NASCAR because they "won too many races".  This is clearly not the case as they were not even used on anything other than Super speedways for the most part, since the wing and nose would be of no advantage on the shorter tracks.  And, keep in mind that the Daytona didn't even start racing until near the end of the 1969 season. NASCAR just didn't want anymore "funny cars" on the track. 

[Ghoste]

For comparison here its a little hard to talk about the number of 500 wins versus wing car wins.  How many short track and dirt races were run in NASCAR back then and how many superspeedway races were there.  It would be more accurate to talk about the percentage of wins at each style of track.  It may not change the results at all but at least we would be discussing this accurately.

[Aero426]

"The Chargers" promotional film had the difficult job of portraying the Charger 500 against stiff competition.   One of the best pieces of old footage to be rediscovered in years.

http://www.streetlegaltv.com/news/vintage-the-chargers-movie-69-dodge-charger-500s-swarm-nascar/

[JB400]

Charger 500:  22 race wins (most all on short tracks) (69-70)
Daytona Charger:  6 race wins (another 2 in USAC) (69-71)
Plymouth Superbird:  8 race wins (another 7 in USAC and 2 in ARCA Series) (70-72)

I find it somewhat funny when I read that the wingcars were removed from the tracks by NASCAR because they "won too many races".  This is clearly not the case as they were not even used on anything other than Super speedways for the most part, since the wing and nose would be of no advantage on the shorter tracks.  And, keep in mind that the Daytona didn't even start racing until near the end of the 1969 season. NASCAR just didn't want anymore "funny cars" on the track. 

I think you need to include the Ford powered aero cars in your statement.  I've read somewhere that France wasn't too fond of the Talledega's as well, but the wing cars crossed the line.

[Aero426]

Not only was France against all the special bodied cars, but there were high ranking people in the Ford and Mopar programs that felt the cars were getting out of hand with what the general race fan identified with.    Not to mention the money being spent to get them built. 

[500Jon]

Boys will be Boys, my MUM always says, its called testosterone LOL!!!

Mother Mopar was desperate for a Championship win and there were no limits in 1969.
We (you) were going to the Moon and back both on and off the track!

Wingcars were built within the rules so what's the problem?
The problem is, they were going faster than specialist built racing cars!

The Charger 500 was sufficiant to win races as we know with 22 wins...
With more tweeking and refinements they would have probably have been ok at superspeedway???
Once the  decision had been made to make a Daytona then thats what mother Mopar did!!!
Most cars have a three to five year development period, the Daytona was SIX-MONTHS!!!

If the Daytona had been introduced in 1970, then Folks would have time to adjust.
Ford would probably have not needed to redesign the Torino as it was pretty good already.

I find the whole late 1969 Talladega debacle an embaressment for all involved.
Only the brave decision by Richard Brickhouse saved the blushes of mother Mopar, or did he?(ask Jim Vandiver lol)
The PDA was a great idea, as drivers were put under more and more pressure to drive Rocketships!
But Big Bill put them under pressure to race and in the interests of safety, they didn't.

Nascar would have been awash with AeroCars if Big Bill had allowed it.
There would have been thousands of Roadgoing Aerocars of all shapes and sizes all throught the 1970's.
I personally like the 'FUSELAGE' Plymouths of 71up and would love to build a 1971 Plymouth-Wingcar as per the 'Supercars' drawings.

Where would Nascar be now without the AeroBAN???

So how about 23 C500 wins and only 5 Daytona wins then?

[wingcar]

The Ford Talladega and its sister the Mercury Spoiler were very good race cars and many would say they were better than the wingcars from the Mopar camp.  Look at the number of wins they racked up.  Plus, they actually looked more like the Torinos sitting in Ford showrooms (minus the extended nose of course). 
What gets me is why NASCAR allowed Ford to offer the Talladega (and Mercury Spoiler) to the public without the engine that they intended to race with?  Instead they allowed Ford to install the 429 in Mustangs instead of the fastbacks.  I am sure at the time the rules may have stated that the engine and bodies had to be approved, but perhaps not as a package.  That's the only thing I can figure.  But when you look at a Talladega...there is nothing outwardly special about the car.  Yes, they had the special nose and the bodies were dropped on the frame (most would never notice) but other than that...nothing.  Bench seat (with Ford) and column shifter with no special engine is what you got, unlike the Mopars.   
Just my two cents.... 

[Ghoste]

I agree, although some would argue the 428CJ was still a special engine.  Not the exotic special they planned to run as you of course point out but no slouch. 

[fc7_plumcrazy]

the Cyclone Spoilers in 1969 even came with a slowly 351 windsor engine

Carsten

[Ghoste]

Yes that's right too isn't it, for the Ford though was it just the FE or did they offer the smallblock as well?

[500Jon]

Bill (henry ford) France said "Special cars including the Mercury Cyclone, Ford Talladega, Dodge and Plymouth Wingcars restricted to 305 CUBES for 1971............

Seems a fairly straight forward rule change until you realise who it may help?
Mother Mopar doesn't have an engine anywhere near that size.
Why didn't Big Bill just go for something like 352???
Ford could have run the 351 Cleveland, Mopar the T/A 340 and Chevy the imfamous 350 4-bolt?
Then the masses would be able to buy their favourite Nascar missile and have good GAS-MILES too lol

Seems like Ford just gave up any ways but it didn't stop them winning the next gazzillion Championships though!

[Ghoste]

France was also reported to have said that the fans like to see the cars they own win races and most of the cars in his parking lots were Chevrolets.  (can any of you guys verify that and maybe even find the correct quote?)

[wingcar]

I read somewhere as well that France wanted Chevy's in the field as it had become a Ford/Mopar show in the mid to late 60's.  He was very happy when Jr. Johnson brought a Monte Carlo to the track.  Here is a story in Jr. Johnson's own words how Chevy returned to NASCAR....

Chevy's return to NASCAR, in Jr. Johnson's own words

In 1971 Jr. got a phone call from Richard Howard, the enterprising promoter at Charlotte Motor Speedway. Howard had an idea – and he thought Junior was the man who could help him make it a reality.
When it came to races at Charlotte, Richard always had schemes – and most all of them worked. He had helped bring the speedway out of bankruptcy and make it financially stable.

When he called me I didn't have any idea what he wanted to talk about. He asked me if I wanted to build a Chevrolet to run at Charlotte in the World 600. He asked me if I would drive it.
I said I wouldn't drive, but then, I thought about building one. Problem was, I didn't know what was available. Where would I locate Chevrolet engines, chassis, components and other stuff?
Chevrolet hadn't been in NASCAR since 1963. That was the biggest reason Richard wanted a Chevy to race at Charlotte.
Chevy was the most popular car in America. Richard knew fans would fill his grandstands just to see it race again.
I figured the Monte Carlo was the model best suited for NASCAR – but I had no idea what NASCAR would think about that.
The Monte Carlo was so wide its wheelbase had to be reduced. I met with NASCAR and asked them to let me use the Monte Carlo front snout, but cut it where it fit the wheelbase rule. They let me do that.
But it didn't end there. Because it was a Chevrolet, there were no NASCAR rules about motors and other things. I had to get the car approved by showing NASCAR all that was going on with the motors, how it was built and that kind of stuff.
With the help of some good assistants, the Chevy was ready to race just five weeks after I first spoke with Richard.
We got Charlie Glotzbach to drive for us. They called him "Chargin' Charlie" so that should tell you he had a driving style I liked.
We were ready for shakedown runs at Charlotte. I had no idea how the car would do. It was all brand new. Everything I had done to it was untried.
When got to Charlotte I was shocked an amazed at how fast the Chevy ran. But I realized that, being a driver in the past, I obviously wanted a fast car.
So did the guys who worked for me, Turkey Minton and Herb Nab. We were taking a shot in the dark, so we duplicated the best of everything we knew, and it worked.
Charlie won the World 600 pole with a speed of 157.788 mph. He led the race four times for 87 laps. He even put a lap on the field before the race was halfway over.
But then Charlie swerved to miss Speedy Thompson on the frontstretch and darned if Charlie didn't hit the wall. That was the end for us. Charlie finished 28th.
As Richard expected, the fans showed up to see the Chevrolet. The attendance was announced at 78,000 – which told Richard and I that we had something really good.
Since we owned the only competitive Chevrolet, we knew that car carried a lot of clout. We thought that clout could help us regain the money we had spent on it.
So we offered to race the Chevy in other events if the promoters would pay us $10,000 in appearance money.
Some promoters jumped right in but others didn't. The ones that paid, well, I made certain we went back to their second race of the season.
The ones that didn't pay, shoot, we didn't go to their second race – even if they wanted us after they had seen fans hanging off the fences earlier. They ticked me off.
You know, I believe the promoters who paid for us began to look at the whole thing in a different light.
They reasoned that if they paid $10,000 for us they could get eight to 10 other top teams for $2,000 or $3,000 apiece.
That type of appearance payment system became, I think, the basis for the "Winner's Circle" program, which NASCAR used to assure that the top, winning teams would be at every race.
We had a successful year with the Chevy. We entered 14 races, won at Bristol and took four pole positions.
For 1972, Richard and I decided we were going to run the full schedule and go for the championship – with a Chevrolet, of course.

[Aero426]

Obviously a ghost written piece.   There are words in there that Junior would never use       Now, back to the action...

I met with NASCAR and asked them to let me use the Monte Carlo front snout, but cut it where it fit the wheelbase rule.

What it seems they were trying to convey was that they talked to NASCAR about using the Ford Galaxie fabricated front snout.   That gave them a ready to use front geometry without having to reinvent the wheel.    Use of the Ford design front snout then became the standard of the industry for all makes in NASCAR except the Mopars.  

Note that the car also has a Holman-Moody fabricated dash as used on Juniors Fords.  
.  

The first Junior Monte Carlo is surrounded in mystery that has taken time to unravel.   At one point it was believed the Chevy was a reskin of Junior's 1969 Fords, but photos of the first car show it has a full frame in the rear kick up area.     The Ford factory cars were half chassis (full frame front clip married to a unibody floor and rear clip).    Juniors car has been said to be the H-M Ford front end married to stock Monte Carlo side rails with long trailing arms (probably H-M pieces).  In other words, a hodge podge.  

[Aero426]

Bill (henry ford) France said "Special cars including the Mercury Cyclone, Ford Talladega, Dodge and Plymouth Wingcars restricted to 305 CUBES for 1971............

Seems a fairly straight forward rule change until you realise who it may help?

The rule was not intended to help anyone.   The rule was intended to get rid of all the special bodied cars by requiring an undesirable engine combination.