XL Keystone pipeline

[twodko]

What are your thoughts about this proposal?

The EcoNazi's think its the devils spawn.

The oil companies see it as the easiest way
to get sand crude to the gulf for sale.

Others feel that in view of the many train derailments
lately involving aging tanker cars carry crude and the
horrible fires and environmental damage caused
by them that the pipeline would be much safer.

The world will be using fossil fuels for decades to come.
Other sustainable energy sources are on the horizon but
not anytime soon. Perhaps not even in my lifetime....I'm 61. 

Let the debate begin........leave your weapons at the door.

[RECHRGD]

OPEC will not reduce production in an effort drive the prices down because of our recent increased oil production.  Our shale fracking is giving them fits and they would love to force our oil guys into bankruptcy.  This is drastically reducing profits for our big USA oil companies.  With that said, the pipeline becomes less of an economic encentive..........  This should become very interesting.....

[twodko]

Weapons come in many forms.

[hawkeye]

The Canadians are the best friends, neighbors, allies the US has ever had.  I would get the oil from them even if it was more expensive.  If we don't the Chinese will.

[68X426]

I doubt the pipeline gets built, if only because the Demoncrats, their unions, and Mr. Billionaire Buffet all benefit greatly from their railroads shipping the stuff, not from the pipeline.  Money talks.

(Buffet owns all the railroads on the Monopoly board, and he loves his friends in DC (Washington, not this DC forum), and the party in (fading) power loves their unions leadership, not so much the workers of course)

Landrieu was swept away today.  Hope the new fools have a plan.

In before this one gets locked. Ha. 

[twodko]

I would be surprised if the mods lock
this thread. It's not a highly volatile subject
only one to generate opinions. Nothing to fight
about.

In other news.......

X2 what Hawkeye said.

[draftingmonkey]

In terms of ecology look at the record of the 40,000 miles or so of existing pipelines we already have.  While not perfect I believe the oil leaked out is less than what has been lost in train derailments, especially in the last 3-4 years.  A lot of that is due to aging rail infrastructure and larger loads on same aging rails.  Also, look at the amount of pollution generated by trains transporting the oil versus the amount of energy needed to move the oil in a pipeline.
Economically of course the railroads will fight the pipeline due to the amount of revenue they will lose if the pipeline is built.

[Old Moparz]

I would be surprised if the mods lock
this thread. It's not a highly volatile subject
only one to generate opinions. Nothing to fight
about.

In other news.......

X2 what Hawkeye said.

I'll be surprised if it doesn't get locked before it reaches page two. The topic could be discussed, but it only has 7 replies not including mine & the name calling & politics have already been dragged in.   

Good luck keeping it civil.

[JB400]

Considering that the Canadians also have a pipeline proposal as well, to the East Canadian coast, I say a pipeline will be built.  The Keystone would be cheaper, but obviously, the oil companies are willing to transport their oil by ship, down to the Gulf coast.

[Mytur Binsdirti]

The Canadians are the best friends, neighbors, allies the US has ever had.  I would get the oil from them even if it was more expensive.  If we don't the Chinese will.

Bingo!

While we are on the subject, what ever happened to this dire prediction from 1977?  




And today....

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-04/u-s-seen-as-biggest-oil-producer-after-overtaking-saudi.html



Although an unrelated topic, we are now supposed to believe in what the "experts" say about other things like global warming? Pa-lease.   

[stripedelete]

I believe the Canadians have the pipeline already.  They are looking at reversing an existing east to west gas line. 

[Mike DC]

While we are on the subject, what ever happened to this dire prediction from 1977?

The numbers are always screwy because of how people like to count resources.  

The amount of oil on earth that we count is not a fixed number.  Not all the oil on the planet is exactly the same quality and costs the same price to reach.  The estimates are for worldwide "recoverable" reserves.  Raise the market price of oil, and we will "find" more of it.

Let's say oil is selling for $100/barrel.  If there is oil in your backyard but it's so deep that it would cost $200/barrel to get out of the ground, then it technically exists but it's economically meaningless for you . . . until the world's oil supply gets so depleted in the future that oil starts selling for $200/barrel.   Suddenly everyone in you neighborhood is going to "find" oil on their land.  

But despite finding all that "new" oil, the price of oil isn't getting any cheaper.  In fact it still continues to climb as we use more of it and "find" more of it.  The rules still apply.  The supply of oil on the planet is still finite.  It still gets more expensive every year we keep burning it until we stop.  

Look at hydraulic fracking - this is not new technology.  It's decades-old technology that is just starting to be perfected & used more in the USA because oil prices are justifying it now.  

 
-------------------------------

Keystone pipeline:

As I understand it, the long term motivation here is for the oil producers to be able to sell more Canadian oil on the worldwide market instead of just in North America.  That will ultimately reduce the Canadian oil available for US & Canadian domestic markets and raise domestic prices.  But it would be great for the bottom line of those petro producers operating in Canada.  

[Old Moparz]

I've got mixed feelings over the pipelines, tar sands, fracking, freight trains with tanker cars, etc. & whether or not it will legitimately do what's promised. One thing that really does get under my skin though, is seeing misleading information no matter which side of the debate it comes from. People put on their blinders & refuse to listen to an opinion, or will not read a link & instantly dismiss it as BS. The first post states, "Let the debate begin" so we will see what happens.

There is much more to why people oppose the pipeline than environmental issues. You can't simply say that the tree hugging hippies singing Kumbaya is the sole reason. If that's how you think then you are completely misinformed or simply ignorant of opinions from others. Seems to me that the same people who hate subsidies for the poor like welfare, food stamps, health care, etc., are 100% content with a small number of extremely wealthy people, AKA the 1%, getting it. Giving subsidies to the 1% has never trickled down to the workforce by means of jobs or pay, it's shipped to the Caymans to stay tax free.

The pipeline is not a permanent job creating project either, it's temporary construction jobs lasting about 2 years. The estimate for permanent jobs is around 50, with only 20% to 30% of them American jobs. Even if all 50 jobs were in this country with a population of over 300,000,000 that argument is a lost cause & sounds like pissing in the ocean to see if you can raise the tide.

The oil flowing from Canada to the gulf coast isn't for Americans to have cheap gas, it's for the highest bidder like China or whichever other country that wants it more. This isn't some "Let's win one for the Gipper" feel good movement by the oil companies, it's their oil going to refineries that already exist so they save money by not building new refineries elsewhere in Canada. It'll work like ebay where you you see some people bid 5 to 10 times more for a rusty POS because they have to have it. Americans will have to outbid these countries just like the brain dead on ebay, which means the price will go up, not down.

The pipeline is going to be subsidized by taxpayers just like bank bailouts & car manufacturers a while back. Remember how everyone was so happy cheering for them? There will be very few that benefit from the pipeline & if there are serious problems such as not discovering new oil supplies to massive spills costing a fortune to clean up, they won't have to worry about it because it didn't come out of their pockets. When the shareholders at the oil companies make more money because taxpayers get stuck with the bills, the CEO's will get their multimillion dollar bonuses & laugh about it.

As far as oil pipelines losing less than tanker cars on a train, that appears to be unknown & varies depending on how you define which is worse. After looking at multiple websites, it seems that for every statistic that says one is worse than the other, the opposite is said by another website.

But this one sums it up fairly well.....
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2014/04/26/pick-your-poison-for-crude-pipeline-rail-truck-or-boat/

If you own a company that fracks for oil & gas & you sue to keep fracking away from the town where you live, then that tells me you know something that you don't want others to know.....
http://www.thenation.com/blog/178534/exxons-pro-fracking-ceo-suing-stop-fracking-near-his-mansion

If you make a living from GMO's & sue to prevent telling people your food is GMO, that also tells me you know something that you don't want others to know.....
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/12/1/in-gmo-labeling-fightalleyesonvermont.html

I'm not sure yet whether I'm for or against pipelines, but I know it raises a red flag with me when I am told a complete bullshit story for a profit. You own a company & want a pipeline? Go buy the land & build the pipe with your own f**king money & take 100% responsibility for when you f**k something up & maybe.....just maybe, I'll start to believe it.

[FlatbackFanatic]

I agree with Old Moparz....

[ws23rt]

The opposition to the Keystone pipeline is brought in front of us by the same folks that panic when anything new is discovered. ---Their is a down side and that means it should be stopped.
I for one am glad they were there when we looked for the first time at the ozone layer. If it were not that we looked than we would never would have found a hole and that hair spray was about to kill us all. Fortunately (and thanks to them) we averted global disaster and now spray our hair with  good stuff and our AC systems in our cars are now safe. (that was a close one indeed). If it were not for their in depth understanding of physics we would not be here now.
So on to the next big potential killer of mankind. Nuclear power, GMO's, or really any thing that humans can come up with. (even medical science is bad because it helps prolong the life of humans. ---That is after all where the problem is---)
Carbon dioxide is a good one. We all exhale it and that proves we are bad. It is beyond me to explain why we are not trying to plug volcanos to stop the huge flows of co2 (not to mention lots of other bad stuff)
The bottom line is humans are dirty. Never mind that we are as natural as everything else in this world.

[twodko]

Some say humans are an infestation on the planet. Certainly could
be construed as such no?

We are witnessing a blatant example of blinder wearing know-it-alls.
All of the recent and future police shootings of "unarmed teenagers/adults"
of any color have brought out all the armchair experts who know what really happened.
From Berkeley to New York to Missouri all of those who cherry pick the
"Facts" they choose to believe are out in force along with the anarchist scum
using the unfortunate and avoidable deaths of people as an excuse to riot,
destroy private property and steal.

"Stop killing our people"........"Hands up - don't shoot" blah blah blah. BS

It's very simple, cops are not there to coddle your kids, cops aren't there
raise your kids nor and they there to teach your kids right from wrong.

If you comply with a command given to you by a cop there quite likely will be no problem.
If you refuse to comply with the command the situation escalates not in your favor.

If you put your hands on a cop you will be very sorry you did so.

Plain and simple.

[ws23rt]

I agree and you nailed it.  Way too many jump through their ass to tell everyone else what to do, what to think, how to feel ,etc. When they are only accepting a few accounts or views that they heard someone else say.  Thanks to the news many become convinced that what they hear it the fact.
The news media have been killing themselves slowly by losing their primary identity as the source of factual happenings.

[Mike DC]

The opposition to the Keystone pipeline is brought in front of us by the same folks that panic when anything new is discovered. ---Their is a down side and that means it should be stopped.

What's the upside of the pipeline, for anyone living in Canada or USA who pays taxes and buys gasoline?   

[ws23rt]

I don't know that their is an upside to the Keystone pipeline. What I do believe is that getting the necessary information to know something like this is hard to find and requires research. That takes time and access to data.
It is a large subject and out of reach for the common interested party like myself unless I devoted all my time to it.
What I am reacting to is general trends in the news that move uninformed folks (like me) to become convinced of something without rational reason.

[RallyeMike]

I don't know that their is an upside to the Keystone pipeline. What I do believe is that getting the necessary information to know something like this is hard to find and requires research. That takes time and access to data.
It is a large subject and out of reach for the common interested party like myself unless I devoted all my time to it.
What I am reacting to is general trends in the news that move uninformed folks (like me) to become convinced of something without rational reason.

It's pretty much impossible to determine the truth of the matter due to all of the mis-information. I have no idea  what to believe any more. Certainly, yes, we could each dedicate a month of our life researching this to get the facts, but that certainly is not practical.

Unfortunately, mis-information campaigns and slanted media viewpoints have pretty much made it impossible for regular Joes to really understand what the truth is any more on nearly any subject. If you have ever had intimate knowledge of a subject that was covered by media or championed by a politician or special interest, you are nodding your head right now.

Frankly, I'm at the point where I think we should fire all of the politicians and cease all voting. We should have the smartest 100 people in america as determined by competition make all the decisions, and rotate them in and out on set terms.

[twodko]

All grand jury reports are a matter of public record,
available to anyone and are free. Of course the rioters/anarchists and ultralibs
couldn't possibly take time to download a copy.
Who needs the facts when you can loot, steal and destroy?

The U.S. Supreme Court is a prime example
of the need for term limits. Allowing these
judges to serve for life is asinine. 

[Mike DC]

The U.S. Supreme Court is a prime example
of the need for term limits. Allowing these
judges to serve for life is asinine.

WTF!?!?






The lifetime job means they never have to worry about "running for office" again!  That's a GOOD thing!   

They never have to focus on anything else, like what they are going to do after their term ends (and who they need to please in order to get that job or position waiting for them . . . )  The lifetime appointment is CRUCIAL to helping the quality of people in that office.

You may not like some of them.  Neither do I.  But there is a difference between making unpopular decisions over ideology versus being sold-out to other interests.

We have hundreds of thousands of people in practically every other branch of govt making compromised decisions worrying about their own personal bottom line a few years later.  Having the Judicial branch appointed for life is a check on that.  It's one of the smarter things the Founding Fathers ever did. 

The fact that no amount of unpopularity gets any of them kicked out is a double-edged sword.  But it's one of the only things able to stand up to a lot of single-edged swords swinging all over the rest of the govt. 

[bakerhillpins]

The U.S. Supreme Court is a prime example
of the need for term limits. Allowing these
judges to serve for life is asinine.

WTF!?!?






The lifetime job means they never have to worry about "running for office" again!  That's a GOOD thing!    

They never have to focus on anything else, like what they are going to do after their term ends (and who they need to please in order to get that job or position waiting for them . . . )  The lifetime appointment is CRUCIAL to helping the quality of people in that office.

You may not like some of them.  Neither do I.  But there is a difference between making unpopular decisions over ideology versus being sold-out to other interests.

We have hundreds of thousands of people in practically every other branch of govt making compromised decisions worrying about their own personal bottom line a few years later.  Having the Judicial branch appointed for life is a check on that.  It's one of the smarter things the Founding Fathers ever did.  

The fact that no amount of unpopularity gets any of them kicked out is a double-edged sword.  But it's one of the only things able to stand up to a lot of single-edged swords swinging all over the rest of the govt.  

Sorry, I'm with twodko on this one, probably for entirely different reasons, but whatever.

I'm in the camp of lifetime is a BAD thing, simply because absolute power corrupts absolutely. I argue that short predetermined terms would result in a better court system and one that reacts to the changing scope of our country in a faster and more fluid manner.

The sad fact is that they are "elected" and are placed in those positions specifically because of their "view of the world". They don't get that job because they are right for it (which oddly enough is still an opinion) or earned it, they get it because one political party is in office and uses that position of power to plant someone with their view of the world there. I for one think that they sold out to other interests long ago.

[Charger74]

I have to agree with Mike DC on the Supreme Court.  The only ones in govt that need to have term limits are the president (which we have) and Congress.  Congress was built to be run by everyday people who did their job for a set amount of time and then went home.  It was never meant to be a lifetime job, I think that is definitely one of the few things the founding fathers screwed up.

As for the discussion on the pipeline, agree with everyone.   The facts would take a lot of time to learn, and unfortunately unless you are part of the group that is trying to get it, you will probably never truly get the real facts of the matter.   If the purpose of the pipeline was to get oil to OUR in country producers, why run it all the way to the gulf.   I know that there are a lot of refineries down south, but still doesn't make sense other than to sell it to other countries.  I haven't decided either way on if it's a good thing or bad, who knows.

[Steve P.]

The way I understand this is if we do not allow the pipeline Canada plans to pipe to their own coast and ship it out. I have actually read quite a bit on it and of the understanding that extremely little goes to owners of the properties. Very little goes to the government. Very few permanent jobs will be produced. All of the risk falls on taxpayers and land owners while all the profits go to Canada and the owners of the pipeline and the oil distilleries.

The big thing is that all the crap waste becomes ours.... Who gets to deal with that waste. Who takes care of fires caused by leaks?

Do you want it in your backyard?

I have read that we rarely hear about oil line breaks unless they are huge and media gets wind of it before it gets covered up. And from what I read (COVERED UP) is typical... Literally!!!!

I cannot see how this does any good for the USA. If this was a great deal why would Canada not do all of this themselves and create more "GOOD PAYING JOBS" there?? I don't know anyone that simply gives away constant revenue.

Does anyone remember this? Or know if any of these people ever got back into their homes?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNkU8p6qq_k

[Old Moparz]

Does anyone remember this? Or know if any of these people ever got back into their homes?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNkU8p6qq_k

Yes, I remember it. I also remember how it was treated as a militarized zone when they shut down the air space over it.    It was said that it was for safety but I'd put money on not wanting the story covered is the bigger reason.  

Doing several differently worded searches online, I only find this after scrolling through tons of crap, so this is why I have little faith in corporate news agencies. None of them tell you shit.  

http://ruralwiddifieldratepayersassociation.com/2014/12/07/exxon-report-finds-outdated-welding-caused-arkansas-pipeline-rupture-lab-says-seam-cracks-tied-to-1940s-welding-led-to-march-spill-of-5000-barrels-of-oil/

Pipe from the 1940's? Nice to see private industry stay on top of things with state of the art technology so the right thing is done. Wouldn't want to think they were trying to save a few bucks over public safety.


Independent news..... http://www.projectcensored.org/five-ways-flex-media-literacy-muscles/  

[Steve P.]

You can bet that the maintenance people at Exxon have repeatedly told the higher up in report after report that the welding technology and the steel technology of the pipeline was crap over and over. Iron workers take their jobs very seriously and don't pull punches. But like every other union you won't uncover the reports unless someone is about to die of cancer themselves and has no one to leave benefits to. 

[twodko]

What Steve P said.