Race Daytona on ebay

[Aero426]

Have you seen it Doug?  If you have, has he indicated he will ever share it with the world?  Until I see it, I don't believe it.

No, I've never seen it in person.   No, he is not going to share the list.    But I have no reason to doubt him.    If you have a 500, call Diane at GTS and they should be able to tell where it came from.

For the record, had the second copy of the Daytona ship list not surfaced,  the first one was not going to be made public either.    Info to owners was free with a VIN rubbing. 

[Aero426]

"Yah, but they only made 392 of them 'dere Charger 500 cars."    

There is the telegram to Ford referencing a list of 500+ Charger 500's to be used to verify compliance.    If the 392 number was any good, that means there is a one in five chance of spot checking for a car that did not exist.  

I seem to recall that the 392 number came from a public relations response to a letter written to Chrysler.   Who knows how the heck they came up with that answer?    

I believe the survival rates on a 500 should mirror those of a Talladega or Spoiler II percentage wise.    That would mean they are far lower than the wing cars (due to the odd factor of the wing car).     If we go with the 392 number, I believe the survival rate on 500's becomes artificially inflated.  I just don't think it's accurate.  

[69_500]

The 392 number comes from a letter from Chrysler to Mike Russo, in 1973 or 74. I have another letter from the same person in Chrysler from around the same time period that states they made 548. I believe the number Galen quotes is 584.

What is the percentage of the ford cars that has survived Doug? If the number of 500's is 584 I can account for 50% of them.

[Ghoste]

Has Galen indicated why he refuses to share this information?

[500Jon]

If we are making up numbers the its gotta be 547 or 572?
392 and 426 are OK, but 503 is Coolio too.

What ever number turns up its gotta be a BIGBLOCK stroker motor combo at least!!!
My internet provider gave me 437 and everyone thought that was my +62 thousanthts overbore Hemi!
No just a total fluke!!!

God moves in mysterious ways?

ps lets not talk about Galen please!

[TUFCAT]

Interesting discussion guys    It baffles me why someone at Chrysler would've said anything less than 500, (if true they did) given the homologation rules.

On another note, it seems that 392 number has taken root and become a doctrine.  I'm no expert on any of this stuff, but I've seen this number published just about well, everywhere!  Trust me, I'm not defending the number at all...  just pointing out how sometimes bad information can be turned into historical fact      

[500Jon]

Surely Creative must know how many 500's were made?
There must also be inventories for supplied cars and parts to them, from Mother Mopar!
What about invoices from Creative for the work DONE???

There must have been a crew of guys there who know the approximate figures.
It was 1968 not 1868, men were getting ready to land on the MOON!!!

Where has all the paperwork GONE???

Its not a National secret and what does it matter now, anyways?

500Jon

[Aero426]

Has Galen indicated why he refuses to share this information?

He will share.   It will cost the car owner a small fee.   

[69_500]

I have seen invoices from creative for work done on the Daytona's but not on the 500's. I will take a picture of the letter I have and post it when I get home.

As a kid the only number I ever heard in relation to the production of 500's was the 392 number. Doug, the letter you posted was from NASCAR to Ford. Has anyone ever contacted anyone in Nascar to see if they still have that list? By January of 69, not sure how many would have still been on lots. I know of a few that were already picked up from dealers in mid September of 68.

[Ghoste]

That isn't sharing, its profiteering.  Yes his blessed right but he could also easily go semi public with this and at least put an end to the debate. 

[TUFCAT]

I support Galen but as Ghoste says....I can't see what putting out those C500 production numbers could hurt.  There's already a lot of production #'s in his white books. Speaking of white books many of them were just revised, so I bought a set last week to replace my old ones. I'll have to look that up...

[held1823]

Have you seen it Doug?  If you have, has he indicated he will ever share it with the world?  Until I see it, I don't believe it.

No, I've never seen it in person.   No, he is not going to share the list.    But I have no reason to doubt him.    If you have a 500, call Diane at GTS and they should be able to tell where it came from.

For the record, had the second copy of the Daytona ship list not surfaced,  the first one was not going to be made public either.    Info to owners was free with a VIN rubbing.  

who was secreting the daytona list and who shared the second copy? other than greed, there is no purpose served by withholding either list. a tiny fraction of these cars are still in the hands of an original owner, and the lists pre-date even that. it is not like this would affect anyone's privacy.

the same goes for press photos, factory documents, and the like. hoarding forty five year old information damn sure does not serve the future of the hobby. dave b nailed it a long time ago - none of us are getting any younger, and if the history is not shared, it will be rewritten after we are gone.

[500Jon]

As with all National Secrets there is a Statute of limitations!

30 years, 50 years or if its a real bad secret 100 years!!!

Everyone is entitled to make a living, some like to profiteer!

We all know that Galen has several hemi C500's and wants to keep the number at 392!
What other reason could there BE???

I vote for 392 LOL!

Galen please say its 392 if its more than 503 I will be heart broken...............................

[500Jon]

Sorry Guys, OFF TOPIC!

Back to Race Daytona's!
TUFF CAT what's with the RED type, I thought cats were nice gentle creatures of the world?

If a car is built on an assembly line then it was something to start with.
(Probably) 68/69 or 70 Charger bodies were altered to make Race Daytona's.
The number 88 car was run at Dega 69 to qualify, against Mother Mopar wishes, as the PDA strike loomed.
It was the only real Factory built Daytona at the track, so all the others were clones?
What paperwork was needed to buy a Daytona KIT???
How were Folks getting 1970 Charger fenders, hoods, nosecones with headlight lids, Z-bars, latchtrays, windowplugs, rear glass-with  stainless-trim, cut-down trunklids and long hinges, in 1969?
Oh yes, I nearly forgot 1969 Tailight panels and lower valance panel too!
Surely with just a few weeks to build a Racetona, it would be easier just to find a C500?

So all thats needed here is the Defintion that they were all RACETONA'S with the paperwork from Mother Mopar!
Not to be confused with RoadTona's with VIN'S!!!

NUFF SAID methinks....................

[Ghoste]

If I understand you, and I'm having a helluva time, you are now agreeing that the Charger 500 race cars were updated into Daytonas?  Because a while ago your position was that they didn't reskin these cars since they were unibodies and you seemed to imply that ready to go Daytonas went from Creative to the racers who then added rollbars and hit the track.

[500Jon]

Err yes and no?

From what RaceFolks are saying is..............
There were 50 or so Race Chargers in 1968 which were slow at the Superspeedways.
Some or all were upgraded to Charger 500's as they were eligible for all tracks?
Then some of those were upgraded again to RaceTona's for SuperSpeedway duties.
Along the way some got wrecked!
So as the 68 bodies were easliy available, the raceteams spent hundreds of hours rebuilding them into Racetona's.

(Or did they just buy REAL C500's or Real Daytona's and convert them instead...NO)

What we are saying is.........no real C500's or Daytona's ever made it onto the racetracks?
None were ever converted from streetcars into racecars?
All Race-500's and RaceTona's are all 68 bodyshells???

Sorry Guys......I GET IT NOW.......

That's why there is a 68 body on this ex racecar???
Then most of the title is incorrect, 1969 426 HEMI (Dodge-Charger) DAYTONA

[1RareBird]

The only real 500 that was turned into a race car (that I know of) is Greg's #88 Daytona.

[500Jon]

FANTASTIC NEWS!!!

THERE IS ONE RACE C500 LEFT AND IT SET THE 200.447 RECORD LAP FIRST!!!

Maybe I will build a clone of the #88 instead lol!
As long as Greg lets me, I don't want to upset anyone.

500Jon

ps I know that #48 was/is a 69 body as its there to see!

[5hunert]

Err yes and no?

From what RaceFolks are saying is..............
There were 50 or so Race Chargers in 1968 which were slow at the Superspeedways.
Some or all were upgraded to Charger 500's as they were eligible for all tracks?
Then some of those were upgraded again to RaceTona's for SuperSpeedway duties.
Along the way some got wrecked!
So as the 68 bodies were easliy available, the raceteams spent hundreds of hours rebuilding them into Racetona's.

(Or did they just buy REAL C500's or Real Daytona's and convert them instead...NO)

What we are saying is.........no real C500's or Daytona's ever made it onto the racetracks?
None were ever converted from streetcars into racecars?
All Race-500's and RaceTona's are all 68 bodyshells???

Sorry Guys......I GET IT NOW.......

That's why there is a 68 body on this ex racecar???
Then most of the title is incorrect, 1969 426 HEMI (Dodge-Charger) DAYTONA

That pretty much says it all.  The only thing I would add was the choice of the 1968 body that it ended its racing career with was most likely coincidental.  Something like: Billy Bubba trashes the body in a Saturday night 1/4 mile dirt track race.  Zeek at Joe's Autowrecking gives him a good deal on the shell on a wrecked 68 charger sitting in the back row.  Someone already got the rear bumper, but he's got a 71 charger two rows over that has the rear bumper, he'll throw that in.  All Billy Bubba needs to do is cut the shell off with a torch and stick weld it on his race car after work that week and he's back in business to tear up the track again the next weekend. The next race Billy Bubba rear ends someone, and goes throws on a couple of '70 front fenders he had laying in the backyard.

Old race cars had no historical significance; they were just a means to go racin on the cheap.

[TUFCAT]

TUFF CAT what's with the RED type, I thought cats were nice gentle creatures of the world?

Cats are nice...    I changed it to blue.  

[dyslexic teddybear]

TUFF CAT what's with the RED type, I thought cats were nice gentle creatures of the world?

Cats are nice...    I changed it to blue.  

Yes.....cats are soft, cute and cuddly.

They also contain fangs and claws.

[TUFCAT]

Hey I love English people...I'm married to one.     She's also gotten me declawed and neutered. 

[odcics2]

Have you seen it Doug?  If you have, has he indicated he will ever share it with the world?  Until I see it, I don't believe it.

No, I've never seen it in person.   No, he is not going to share the list.    But I have no reason to doubt him.    If you have a 500, call Diane at GTS and they should be able to tell where it came from.

For the record, had the second copy of the Daytona ship list not surfaced,  the first one was not going to be made public either.    Info to owners was free with a VIN rubbing.  

who was secreting the daytona list and who shared the second copy? other than greed, there is no purpose served by withholding either list. a tiny fraction of these cars are still in the hands of an original owner, and the lists pre-date even that. it is not like this would affect anyone's privacy.

the same goes for press photos, factory documents, and the like. hoarding forty five year old information damn sure does not serve the future of the hobby. dave b nailed it a long time ago - none of us are getting any younger, and if the history is not shared, it will be rewritten after we are gone.

Aww, you remember I had found the original list, back in the 80s! 
And I would give anyone all the info for free, if they provided me a pencil rubbing of the dashboard vin.

At the time, I thought that would weed out folks just looking for info to search for cars, that the owner didn't want known.
Hey, if a guy has a Daytona, and wants to stay off the grid, I respect that.   Most original owners weren't that far from the selling dealer.

I believe I helped out about 80 guys back then, wanting shipping dates and dealer info! 

[69_500]

Okay so here are the two letters I was talking about.

Side note, Greg, have you seen the 500 shipment list? I just would like to see it. Give me an hour in a room with that list and I think I could memorize what I didn't already know.

[odcics2]

I have never seen a list for the "500"...