Race Daytona on ebay

[JB400]

I reckon the only way to settle this particular argument is with a picture.  Does anyone have any pix taken at Nichels that shows multi year race cars being rebodied in one pic?

[500Jon]

I think most Folks are missing the point here,

Its a UNIBODY not a KITCAR BODY!
These are not racecars with detachable skins.
They are built on a JIG from the Floorpan upwards, by Mother Mopar!.
You can't rebody a unibody with a full rollcage inside, its welded in to to pan and posts!
Thats a reskin with dubious connections to the underframe.
This was done so the non eligible Wingcars could be re-used.
It was the beginning of KITcars rolling chassis with detachable bodywork.

The #48 car is or was a Daytona or 1969 C500 built by MOPAR/CREATIVE.
YOU CAN CLEARLY SEE ITS GOT A CREATIVE WINDOW PLUG FITTED AS PER THE ROADCARS.
Not some crappy cobbled up VEGA window and tailgate!!!

The Article says a shining brand new racecar, not a bare bones primered Charger body!

Even worse that advert says CHARGER DAYTONA, SURELY THATS FRAUD, ITS A 68 BODY, with someones else's NOSECONE!!!

[odcics2]

But they are often so reskinned and recaged and re-engined and re-suspensioned (its a word) (I think) that my point was "which version do you choose to restore it as?".

You often have to choose which moment in time you want to represent.

Sometimes the date is the easiest thing to choose on a restoration...   3-24-70. 

[500Jon]

Who is the young lad standing between the 67 Charger and the 1969 DODGE CHARGER DAYTONA???

We need to speak to him so this can be settlled LOL!!!

Where's JOHNNY!!!

[TUFCAT]

The #48 car is was a Daytona or 69 C500 built by MOPAR/CREATIVE.
YOU CAN CLEARLY SEE ITS GOT A CREATIVE WINDOW PLUG FITTED AS PER THE ROADCARS.
Not some crappy cobbled up VEGA window and tailgate!!!

The Article says a shining brand new racecar, not a bare bones primered Charger body!

Even worse that advert says CHARGER DAYTONA, SURELY THATS FRAUD, ITS A 68 BODY, with someones else's NOSECONE!!!

[69_500]

Guess I will not be making an offer on the car as bidding was right about to what I was willing to offer, but never reached reserve.

One of these days I will get a Daytona.

[Aero426]

I think most Folks are missing the point here,

Its a UNIBODY not a KITCAR BODY!
These are not racecars with detachable skins.
They are built on a JIG from the Floorpan upwards, by Mother Mopar!.
You can't rebody a unibody with a full rollcage inside, its welded in to to pan and posts!
Thats a reskin with dubious connections to the underframe.
This was done so the non eligible Wingcars could be re-used.
It was the beginning of KITcars rolling chassis with detachable bodywork.

The #48 car is or was a Daytona or 1969 C500 built by MOPAR/CREATIVE.
YOU CAN CLEARLY SEE ITS GOT A CREATIVE WINDOW PLUG FITTED AS PER THE ROADCARS.
Not some crappy cobbled up VEGA window and tailgate!!!

The Article says a shining brand new racecar, not a bare bones primered Charger body!

Even worse that advert says CHARGER DAYTONA, SURELY THATS FRAUD, ITS A 68 BODY, with someones else's NOSECONE!!!

Don't really understand what you are trying to say here. 

[pettybird]

Don't really understand what you are trying to say here. 

[5hunert]

NOPE, deadly SERIOUS!!!

Putting a nosecone on a rebodied 66/67/68 Charger doesn't make it a Daytona Racecar, capable of speeds of nearly 240mph!
The aerodynamics would have to be PERFECT along with the Chassis and suspension!
A short track stock-car is not the same thing at all!!!

I know a lot about racing both drag and circuit and unlike most I've done it!

I find your comments most offensive!!!

What raceteam did you work for???
How many Championships have you WON???

.

Jon, I'm not going to doubt your current racing credentials, and I hope you're posts haven't been sarcasm simply to elicit strong responses.  In case you're actually being serious, you need to recognize that racing today is a far cry from the late 1960s.  Just pick up some old speed magazines from the late 1960's so you can appreciate the historic perspective. Look at the results from any major NASCAR race; once you get out of the top 5 in finishing orders, I doubt you will recognize any of the drivers' names. They were mostly local guys who upgraded their Saturday night shortrack car to try the Big Time (on a very limited budget). People were trying to go 200+ MPH in cars that were built in chicken coops. Just because it doesn't sound safe today doesn't mean people wouldn't try it then. 

If you take a look at Richard Petty's record setting, state-of-the-art 1966 Plymouth, the roll cage would be considered substandard for a Saturday night street stocker today.  Imagine what the cars qualifying in the back in the field looked like.

And, yes, uni-body cars were re-skinned frequently (at all levels of racing).  Once the uni-body chassis was braced with the roll cage and internal bars, the body became just as much of an add-on as it is on a fiberglass late model body of today.   Bodies got trashed on a regular basis (and aged out by NASCAR rule), but a good chassis took hundreds of hours to prepare.  This made it much cheaper to keep re-fitting chassis (even unibody) with new bodies until the chassis was wrecked beyond repair or made obsolete by rule change.

[TUFCAT]

I also couldn't tell if he was being serious or not - so I decided not to pile on..... especially on the Creative Industries part which I didn't get at all. 

But for those wondering about reskinned Nascar bodies, I found this very good pictorial.  The photo's on this website tell a lot about how the chassis and bodies were originally built, and rebuilt.  I apologize if its a repeat.

http://www.mopardealer.com/petty3.htm

[500Jon]

It is well documented that the drivers knew that the factory built Wingcars were ridiculously FAST!
Coupled with high banked tracks it was getting outta control.
'Fred in his shed' could not build state of the ART high speed racecars!
Most Folks are saying the Wingcars were year on year upgrades from the mid sixties!
This may well be true for the backend boys , but not the factory teams.
You are saying that most Dodge Wingcars were 68 Charger bodies with flush back windows added BY THE TEAMS?

I refrain from calling them Daytona's now as it seems they never were.
Why are they referred to as Daytona's at all?
If they weren't modified be Creative on a 69 R/T shell then they are NOT and never will be Daytona's.
THEREFORE, ANYONE WHO BUYS A RACE DAYTONA IS IN FACT BEING CONNED!!!

As this will be a matter of opinions, then I will no longer comment.
I am shocked that people aren't concerned that the advert says DODGE DAYTONA.
Which part is a Daytona???

[JB400]

From Allpar      http://www.allpar.com/racing/200-mph-Daytona.html

At the time, a lot of the team owners had not even seen a Dodge Charger Daytona. The kit pieces were being fastened on Dodge Chargers to turn them into Dodge Charger Daytonas as the qualification for the race was going on! The appointed drivers had no familiarity with the smooth wind cheater characteristics of the new car at all.

[Aero426]

Why is there a denial of factory built 500 and Daytona racecar bodies?
Most Folks are saying the Wingcars were year on year upgrades from the mid sixties!
This may well be true for the backend boys , but not the factory teams.
You are saying that most Dodge Wingcars were 68 Charger bodies with flush back windows added BY THE TEAMS?

Some were upgrades.  And some were not.   Many new cars were built in 1968 because of the updated chassis design.   The majority of Daytonas had some prior identity as a 500 or conventional Charger before becoming a Daytona.     If you were a factory team with a Charger 500, when the Daytona arrived,  you did not receive another whole new car from Nichels Engineering.   You received a kit of parts.    

[5hunert]

Technically this is what remains of an actual car raced as a 69 Dodge Daytona, and is still possible to rebuild it as such. I would hope anyone with the time and money to purchase a car like this would not be expecting to find an XX vin on it (or any Vin for that matter) and would be quite aware of the way stock cars were built, bodied and maintained in its era.

[TUFCAT]

Why is there a denial of factory built 500 and Daytona racecar bodies?

The race prepped "bodies" were not obtained from actual assembly line built (production) Dodge Chargers.  

You are saying that most Dodge Wingcars were 68 Charger bodies with flush back windows added BY THE TEAMS?

From what I understand, yes.

Why are they referred to as Daytona's at all?

For the same reason that modern NASCARS have been called Taurus, Lumina, Monte Carlo, Fusion and Camry.

If they weren't modified be Creative on a 69 R/T shell then they are NOT and never will be Daytona's.

Correct. They will never be (or have been) Dodge Daytona's.... They began life as Nascar Grand National race cars.

THEREFORE, ANYONE WHO BUYS A RACE DAYTONA IS IN FACT BEING CONNED!!!

If it has a verified race history, and proof it was track used as a grand national Daytona, nobody is being conned.

[5hunert]

This makes me wonder though. The popular story on C500 production was 500 were built, with 106 sent off to race teams and 394 made available to the public.  If so, what of those 106 C500s and what happened to them?  Did they have XX vins on them?  Were they converted to racecars, or stripped of their sheet metal and junked, or become street drivers for the team? If Nichels was the factory builder, I don't think he would want complete cars that he would have to strip.

[Aero426]

This makes me wonder though. The popular story on C500 production was 500 were built, with 106 sent off to race teams and 394 made available to the public.  If so, what of those 106 C500s and what happened to them?  Did they have XX vins on them?  Were they converted to racecars, or stripped of their sheet metal and junked, or become street drivers for the team? If Nichels was the factory builder, I don't think he would want complete cars that he would have to strip.

'

The process of using complete cars as tear downs ended no later than sometime in 1966.

[5hunert]

So what did happen to the 106 C500s?  Were they an urban legend?

[TUFCAT]

So what did happen to the 106 C500s?  Were they an urban legend?

As far as I know that number was based on actual shipping and VIN records.  Apparently the Nascar homologation people didn't check records well.  

The reason I've heard (...most likely accurate) for not hitting the number was because the 500 project was stifled by the Daytona project, and there was a very real deadline looming to get Daytona's completed and homologated as 1969 models.

[Ghoste]

Never heard of any 500's going straight from Chrysler or Creative to a race team.  In fact, other than an alledged document which might prove more than 392 were built I've never heard of that extra 106 either. 

[Aero426]

So what did happen to the 106 C500s?  Were they an urban legend?

My opinion is they built and sold all 500. Govier has the list. I believe it to be true.

[Aero426]

So what did happen to the 106 C500s?  Were they an urban legend?

As far as I know that number was based on actual shipping and VIN records.  Apparently the Nascar homologation people didn't check records well.  

The reason I've heard (...most likely accurate) for not hitting the number was because the 500 project was stifled by the Daytona project, and there was a very real deadline looming to get Daytona's completed and homologated as 1969 models.

All the C500s had to be completed by 1/1/69.  The Daytona project had not yet started.

[arrow]

So what did happen to the 106 C500s?  Were they an urban legend?

My opinion is they built and sold all 500. Govier has the list. I believe it to be true.

The list Govier has includes the selling Dealers of the 500s too.

[Ghoste]

Have you seen it Doug?  If you have, has he indicated he will ever share it with the world?  Until I see it, I don't believe it.

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