440 with 727 Automatic dies when stopped in Drive**UPDATE!**

[nge]

Hi guys,
this is probably a very basic engine question, but it is still giving me fits.  
My newly rebuilt 440 dies in drive after the engine get to operating temperature and the the brakes are on (car stopped) and the transmission is in drive.  (440 /727  in a 73 charger) I bumped up the idle a few times and it now dies if im in drive, stopped with foot on brake and the headlights are on.  I seem to remember being told to set the idle RPM with the engine at operating temp and all accesories on and running.
Does anyone have any advice on how to trouble shoot this problem?
Thanks
Vic

[bordin34]

I had a similar problem. It was tied to my timing and idle mixture. I am running a holley 670 on my 440.

[nge]

Thanks, I'm  looking into into both vacuum and idle based on your experience.
I appreciate your help!

[myk]

Checking vacuum for a possible leak or low vacuum condition is a good idea.  If you've got a leak somewhere you can mess with your idle speed, mixtures and timing all you want, and nothing will change...

[nge]

I checked all the obvious vacuum leak locations, nothing obvious.
The engine now dies in drive, brake applied, lights on, and AC running 
Any other possible vacuum leak locations other than hoses?
I'm off to check timing now
thanks
Vic

[PlainfieldCharger]

Brake booster diaphram?

[redmist]

It's possible your converted is not matched well enough with your camshaft.

[69wannabe]

Brake booster could be bad and causing the engine to stall. I had a jeep cj7 I built a 304 for a guy and swapped out the 6 cylinder that was in it and about a year later he brought it back saying it was stalling at redlights. I let it run here in the yard for a little bit and checked timing and the carb, even pulled the carb apart and checked it out. When I went to drive it the second I put my foot on the brake pedal it started to die, turns out the more pressure I put on the pedal the more it would try to die. New brake booster and it was good to go!!!

[myk]

Hmmm....could a lack of alternator output cause a car to die like this?

[BSB67]

Way too little information.

Is everything else about the idle perfect in neutral?  Should not drop more than a couple hundred rpm from neutral to drive.  Any wandering idle rpm in neutral?  When you rev it up, does the rpm drop right back to normal idle rpm and stay there?  What cam?  History on the converter?  when was it last used?

Hand over the carb at idle is the way I like to determine if there is a vacuum leak.  Place hand over the primaries to choke the motor.  If there is a vacuum leak, the rpm will rise slightly before the engine dies.  I can do it with my bare hand, but have been doing it for years.  There is a little technique in doing it as you need to quickly get a reasonable seal.  If it does not seem to work for you, try using a rag.

[BSB67]

Hmmm....could a lack of alternator output cause a car to die like this?

Should run off battery.  But with that said, I have heard of a couple instances that the Mopar ECU, or other ignition issue was the reason for similar problems. 

[nge]

I have been trying all of the above except for the brake booster.
Idles nicely in D until it reaches operating  temp.
Cam shaft is "supposed" to be close to stock (comp cams CRB 280H-10, PN 21-237-4)

Do I need to have the transmission in Drive and brakes applied to set the timing? Im going for 15BTDC (FSM says 10)

I'm still here fighting!

[b5blue]

Hmmm....could a lack of alternator output cause a car to die like this?

It can and will, I'd check Alt. output and voltage at the coil in park AND drive. Plug and plug wire condition also. When I switched to Firecore plug wires I immediately noticed a "stronger" idle that was much less effected by putting in gear. Later when I converted to the Denso 120amp Alt (60amp output capability @ idle.) I again found my ignition enjoyed getting full juice supplied under all conditions like idling with wipers, lights and defroster running on high.
   

[BSB67]

Hmmm....could a lack of alternator output cause a car to die like this?

It can and will, I'd check Alt. output and voltage at the coil in park AND drive. Plug and plug wire condition also. When I switched to Firecore plug wires I immediately noticed a "stronger" idle that was much less effected by putting in gear. Later when I converted to the Denso 120amp Alt (60amp output capability @ idle.) I again found my ignition enjoyed getting full juice supplied under all conditions like idling with wipers, lights and defroster running on high.
 

Really.  My car runs fine without the alternator for awhile.

[nge]

38 deg initial timing (Needs to be at 950 RPM and 15" HG to idle in N )....I think something is wrong with the way they hooked up the distributor?
This was supposed to be my wife's fair weather daily driver

[John_Kunkel]

38° initial timing !!!!!! Is that with the vacuum hooked up or not?

[BSB67]

38° initial timing !!!!!! Is that with the vacuum hooked up or not?

Something is not right.

To the OP, is the dist vacuum hooked up to full manifold vacuum or port vacuum.

Double check you timing in each of the following conditions:  1) neutral with vacuum, 2) Neutral without vacuum, 3) In gear with vacuum, and 4) in gear without vacuum.

[nge]

38 BTDC is with no vacuum.
port on carb is blocked off to check timing.
I'm going to speak with the builder tomorrow...I just dont know what to ask him other than are the timing marks correct and what the engine signal  compensates for transmission load

[nge]

I spoke with builder this afternoon.
he did set it to 36 deg BTDC to get it to idle.
I'm going ot find TDC myself and see if it is mismarked on the dampner.
he suspects the carb is too lean at idle.
engine is a 440 (30 over) with a comp cams 280H-10 cam.  Stock heads, crank, exhaust and intake. Carb is a new 625 cfm BG Street Demon (the kind that looks lina a thermoquad)

What I can gather from al my searching is that the brakes, lights and A/C put a load on the engine at idle.  These loads change the vacuum signal to the carb richens the mixture at idle.  The carb is either is not responding to the vacuum signal or the signal is incorrect (I am thinking of this correctly?)

The carb is 1 year old but it sat at the shop for 6 months, so that could be a factor.

[RECHRGD]

Just a thought on the simple side.  Same thing was happening to me a couple of years ago.  Turned out that the carb to intake gasket was faulty and leaking.....

[BSB67]

Just a thought on the simple side.  Same thing was happening to me a couple of years ago.  Turned out that the carb to intake gasket was faulty and leaking.....

He seems to have ruled out a vacuum leak.

[BSB67]

I spoke with builder this afternoon.
he did set it to 36 deg BTDC to get it to idle.
I'm going ot find TDC myself and see if it is mismarked on the dampner.
he suspects the carb is too lean at idle.
engine is a 440 (30 over) with a comp cams 280H-10 cam.  Stock heads, crank, exhaust and intake. Carb is a new 625 cfm BG Street Demon (the kind that looks lina a thermoquad)

What I can gather from al my searching is that the brakes, lights and A/C put a load on the engine at idle.  These loads change the vacuum signal to the carb richens the mixture at idle.  The carb is either is not responding to the vacuum signal or the signal is incorrect (I am thinking of this correctly?)

The carb is 1 year old but it sat at the shop for 6 months, so that could be a factor.

You've said a few concerning things in this message.  Hope he checked the bearing clearance.

Anyways, yes, the next step is probably to determine TDC.  Report back when that is done.

[nge]

I have 3 old vehicles...so I never rule out a vaccum leak!
they have bitten me far to often so I will recheck the gaskets.
I have some tools on order to get TDC, because I want to learn and see how to do it multiple way and to check myself.
but I got to ask, what else did i say that was concerning?

[BSB67]

.... what else did i say that was concerning?

The guy that built your motor did not check TDC to the balancer, and he gave the car to you with the initial at 36° without telling, figuring it out, or fixing it.

If you did the hand over carb test correctly as stated earlier and as you implied you did, then you don't have a vacuum leak.

[PlainfieldCharger]

Bad harmonic balancer? Slipped on the rubber?

[Dino]

A while back I bought a 600 cfm Edelbrock.  It looked clean so I just bolted it on.  It needed to idle quit high and once put in drive it would die.  I removed the carb, opened it up and cleaned it out and then it idled fine in drive.  I'd remove the carb and clean it out or rebuild it.  If for whatever reason you decide to go with another carb, shoot me a pm, I always wanted to try one of those Demons..

[Dmichels]

check the float level on the carb had the same thing happen to me years ago the fuel spills over and kills the engine

[moparnation74]

check the float level on the carb had the same thing happen to me years ago the fuel spills over and kills the engine

I had the exact same thing happen to one of my rides and it was related to float level.

[Dino]

check the float level on the carb had the same thing happen to me years ago the fuel spills over and kills the engine

I had the exact same thing happen to one of my rides and it was related to float level.

That's probably why mine died as well.  I recall resetting the floats when I cleaned the carb.

[nge]

Float level is next on my list after I find TDC tonight!  I'm optimistic

[nge]

I found true TDC with a piston stop.
Builder was only off by 1/4 "CCW.
I havent started it yet so I do not yet know how much that will knock initial timing down from 36-38.
Next I will check my street demon...car sat at builders for 6 months so that may be part or all of my problem.
I also have a bad vacuum advance cannister .  I'm not sure if that is a problem at idle in park but I got a replacement.  Has anyone isntalled one of these? the 73 FSM says they are tuneable, but it doesnt explain how.
thanks
Vic

[b5blue]

  Initial time, static with nothing weird going on, I set my 440 @ 12* with the Vac. Adv. disconnected. (It will run crappy) Then I hooked up the Vac. Adv. to the Dist. and measured timing to see the difference. (say 22*-12* = 10* added by Vac. Adv.) Then run the engine RPM's up high to see full advance the dist will go to, that number should be somewhere in the 30's. 
  Let's confirm readings after you remove the Dist. cap grab the rotor and see if it rotates smoothly about 20 degrees by hand. Can you twist it some and will it spring back on its own? Has it been oiled ever? pull up the rotor and remove it, you should see a felt in the center of the shaft. Put some oil on it replace the rotor and be sure its moving smoothly about 20*. Even if your ring with the time marks shifted you would still read the initial at "X*" adding Vac. Adv. would add 6* to 10* (X*+8*)and full @ high RPM's 10* to 15* (X*+15*) give or take.     

[BSB67]

I found true TDC with a piston stop.  Good

Builder was only off by 1/4 "CCW. I'm not sure what you mean by this as the it is not adjustable, unless he put timing tape on the balanced for you.

I havent started it yet so I do not yet know how much that will knock initial timing down from 36-38.  1/4" is about 4°

I also have a bad vacuum advance cannister .  I'm not sure if that is a problem at idle in park but I got a replacement.  Has anyone isntalled one of these? the 73 FSM says they are tuneable, but it doesnt explain how.  It becomes self evident once you start.

[b5blue]

Vac. Adv. is adjustable by inserting an allen wrench in the vacuum pod nipple, it will set advance limit. (Google it.)

[nge]

I gooled it! Thanks!

[nge]

Hi all,
Here is were I am one I found TDC.
625cfm street demon on rebuilt 440
At idle in neutral at operating temperature-
timing is 15 deg BTDC
Vacuum is 12.5 "Hg
RPM is 900
when I slip in into Drive (and foot on brake)it stalls immediately.
I can keep it drom stalling only by nursing the throttle and driving away
It did not do that before the rebuild so I am wondering what "signal" vacuum or other the carb is not getting.
thanks in advance

[b5blue]

Did ya fix the Vac. Adv. ? Mine is running at about 22* with it @ idle. (+ or -) It likes 20+ deg. @ idle and about 36 deg. full @ higher RPM's. (Or I get pinging.)

[nge]

B5blue,
I did fix the vacuum advance canister, but I didnt use it for initial timing, because I didnt think it came into play at idle.
Are you saying that it might? Or that it might come into play when the tranmission is put into drive?  
Sorry but you're dealing with a guy who has only had manual transmissions to this point.  So, this area of carb tuning is new to me.

[b5blue]

Yes it should. (If engine is near stock build.)

[nge]

Well I replaced the vacuum advance canister and re set the timing with there advance disconnected.  I have not adjusted the canister yet.
At operating temperature, the car now idles in neutral at 850 RPM and 15 "Hg.  Putting the car in Drive dropped RP to 650 and 8 "Hg.  I enriched the idle mixture screws and increased neutral RPM to 1050.  It will now idle at 750 RPM and 8 "Hg in Drive...but it doesn't sound like it wants to stay there long
Any thoughts?
I would like to adjust my vac advance to pull at7 Hg. Is that possible?
Thanks
Vic

[c00nhunterjoe]

Im still lost as to why your initial timing is set at 36 degrees then you have your mechanical and vaccum advance going from there. That would put your total somewhere in the 50's if you are running a stock style distributor. I think there are more issues here. What cam are you running that your idle was at 650 rpm? Then you set it at 1050 rpm? You are making way too many changes back to back. I would start with finding out why your initial timing is so high. Im wondering if your cam is installed wrong.

[nge]

It may have been installed wrong, I'm sure no one at the shop will admit to that.
I knocked my initial timing back to 15 BTDC and got the RPM, vacuum, and timing the best I could.
So now its set at the numbers in my previous post.
But I was not clear in that post the 750RPM is in D and 1050RPM is  in N. Timing is no longer at 36-38.

[Sublime/Sixpack]

So other than a problem at idle, how well does the engine perform when you drive the car? Does it seem to have the power you think it should?  Will it tach out as it should? Or is it a dog?

[nge]

I only drove it home fro the builders and 2 other trips to test out the stall issue.  I thought it it had pretty good pick up (for having a tired automatic), its sounds great...just wont stay running in D at a stop. But only after it gets warm.  The 6 mile trip home from the builders lead me  to believe all was well. Subsequent trips have been troublesome.
I could keep raising the idle speed, but I'm not sure it 1100 is to high in N.
As of now its its 1000 in N with 12 "hg vacuum.  In D it drops to 800 RPM with 8"hg vacuum, but turing on the headlights kills it.
I really appreciate all of the help on this. I'll let everyone know what finally solves it.

[b5blue]

If it run good cold and crappy at temp.....look at your CHOKE set up. 

[nge]

My choke has been wired open for now.
I didn't want to deal with the electric choke until I solved this problem.
I could be wrong...wouldn't be the first time

[redmist]

What converter is in the car?

What camshaft?

[moparnation74]

Also, wondering if it is a camshaft/tight convertor issue.

The 800rpm drop slightly steers me away from what I mentioned above.

Or as coonhunterjoe questioned an incorrectly installed cam.

Does it fire and run immediately when you start it?

[nge]

moparnation74,
it fires and starts fine.  Idles OK in neutral. The touque cnverter has me wondering as well.  The stock converter should be in the accepable band for this cam, but the car did it sit outside under a car cover for 6 months...probably didnt help.
Ive havent restarted her in two weeks.  I pulled the dipstick tube to reroute it (the builder put in under the exaust manifold instead of between the manifold and the valve cover).  Its was one of those "while I'm here" jobs that has turned into a two week nightmare.  Near impossible to do in tne car!  Its a very tight fit beween the bolck and to motor mount. Ive spent  2 weeks and bent 3 dipsticks.....And I have 3 more dipsticks on order!....not fun

[b5blue]

You should remove the exhaust manifold IMO for that job, you need a really nice fit or you'll get leaks. I had to practically polish the tube and hole in the block. A thin coat of RTV right before the stop flair for insurance.