My charger will never be fuel injected!!!!!

[redmist]

It's always interesting to hear how people can't fix or tune EFI...  Why not??? It's literally no different than a carb. Fuel, Air, Spark..     If you can tune a carb, you should be able to sit down and build a fuel and timing map in about 10 minutes for a good base tune.
I mean you are LITERALLY telling the car how you want it to run! 
I suppose some of the kits might be limited or something???
They are fuel injecting chain saws these days, It's time to step into the now. I bet mike wishes he had fuel injection during Bull Run. It would have been awesome to have duel mapping setup for an economy tune during those long road stretches at the flip of a switch. 

YOU are happy with yours??? GREAT, I'll be one of the many that pass you by when you blow a fuse to the electric fuel pump or when your EFI "brain" shorts out. Electronics are great when they work and a huge pain in the crotch when they leave you stranded at night in an UNfamiliar town.

I might be the guy that passes you by, when your voltage regulator shorts out, or a fuse blows to your ignition system. Or the bulk head connectors melt from your headlights drawing to many amps, or your distributor pickup fails, or your fuel pump diaphragm ruptures, or your ballast resistor decides it's time to let all the smoke out, or your High/Low beam switch decides it's a good time to catch fire or your carb decided to spew gas all over your hot engine from hitting a boiling point in the modern fuel, and on and on and on.... The difference is I can walk into any auto parts store, and get parts for my new fangled EFI.  And if ANYONE is passing me by, it will be people driving modern EFI equipped cars. Take a look around you next time you drive somewhere. Everything is EFI, it's been that way for 30+ years.  

You can try to slice it any way you wan't, but EFI, and modern wiring is much more reliable than an older setup car.

People get scared of EFI, and just start throwing parts at it when something goes wrong... bust out the multi-meter and learn to work on the system, it's all simple 5V and 12V systems. Most of these systems will tell you exactly what is wrong with it.

It's not hard folks!

[HeavyFuel]

One of the reasons I love my car is the 'old tech' that makes it go, although it can be frustrating at times.

It has a couple small mods like electronic ignition/voltage regulator, etc.... but it probably won't ever get EFI.

Some cars just need to stay period correct.   

[redmist]

One of the reasons I love my car is the 'old tech' that makes it go, although it can be frustrating at times.

It has a couple small mods like electronic ignition/voltage regulator, etc.... but it probably won't ever get EFI.

Some cars just need to stay period correct.   

That's a beautiful car!!!!

Here is a picture under my hood.

Every single wire is in place in this picture except the washer bottle.



And the fuse panel.



I feel MUCH better about the car now. Heck everything is even grounded in the same place, on one stud!


I will admit, if my car had been an R/T Originally I would have restored it to stock as well. I wan't to thrash on this car though, so an R/T didn't make sense to me.

[JR]

What does a neglected, 23 year old jeep possibly have to do with modern aftermarket fuel injection for our cars?

Microsoft Windows systems were crashing & frustrating us back in the 1990s.  What does that have to do with the quality of Win8 now?  


We're griping about some flaws that are inherent in computerizing things.


Nobody minds EFI when it's working fine.  The problem is that the failure mode is still just as infuriating today as it was 20-some years ago.  

Flaws are inherent in almost anything. Learning how EFI works would be a better alternative than automatically dismissing it forever.

Failure mode with a carbeurated vehicle is just as infuriating.  Including the most aggravating scenario in my experience: the needle sticking, washing down the cylinders with fuel, possibly frying an engine. As has happened multiple times with my old carbs. That is very unlikely with EFI.

The othe perks are nice. automatically adjusting for elevation, humidity, temperature,  driving styles, etc. All on its own without having to pop the hood to change jets, or getting dirty.


Almost every other gearhead group embraced EFI decades ago. If Mopar guys continue to sit around bashing any updated tech since 1974, this side of the car hobby will stay pretty stale.

The majority of this thread sounds like "GGRRRR, TECHNOLOGY SCARY, BAD, MAKES....ME... ANGRY....GRRRR".

[Mike DC]

You can try to slice it any way you wan't, but EFI, and modern wiring is much more reliable than an older setup car.

EFI is one thing, 45yo wiring is something else.  Plenty of carb'd cars have freshened wiring these days.



IMO both sides can be guilty of blowing things out of proportion.  

The way EFI guys describe carbs, carbs could have never have been the standard method of running a vehicle for 80+ years.  Muscle car guys normally tune these cars to do one thing in a very narrow set of conditions.  Meanwhile my mother was able to drive carb'd cars every day for decades with setups that weren't quite so optimized for acceleration.    


EFI has more flexibility though. No arguing with that.  

 

[69wannabe]

I'm not necessarily the type of person to just throw parts at something. I do have a multi-meter and a OBD 1 and OBD 2 scanner and for the pro at this it had a code 42 which was an ASD relay open or short. I checked all the wiring going to and from the relay back to the ecm and it all checked good. Realistically I should have been able to jump the 30 wire which was 12 volts to the 87 wire which was the output for the coil, alternator field and the injectors and it should have ran. The reason I put an ecm on it was the ecm was not grounding the 85 wire and thats why I figured it wouldn't start and there is a possibility that the ecm I purchased could have been bad too. I have several jeep grand cherokee's in my family and when you have an intermittent shut off and it starts back up problem the crank sensor is the first place you go and usually they will not throw a trouble code. I have a very decent understanding of fuel injection and until this one I usually have no problem getting one up and running. The jeeps with the 4.0 only have one of two problems, the fuel pumps fail and the crank sensors fail. I have replaced a few TP sensors that will also not throw a trouble code since the voltage range is usually from 1 to 5 volts and unless it drops above or below that voltage it will not give a check engine light and it can still be bad if there is a glitch as you open and close the throttle. I just would rather keep my old car an old car. I just see myself spending 2 or 3 grand for fuel injection and not liking it and putting my holley back on there so like I said before I really think I would enjoy a passion 5 speed more than EFI. I am also on the jeep forums and a really nice guy on there has tried to help me with the jeep and between both of us tracing wires and checking voltage and grounds it really just didn't make any sense why it wouldn't run. OBD 1 was such a poor system compared to when OBD 2 came out and it was a much better system and easier to diagnose problems too. Not beating down the OBD 1 system since two of my jeeps are 93 models and have been very good vehicles but the 96 and newer jeeps we have just seem to have the better system for sure. I still have no problem with a carburetor. Just like EFI if a carb is right it's just as good to me.

[69wannabe]

One of the reasons I love my car is the 'old tech' that makes it go, although it can be frustrating at times.

It has a couple small mods like electronic ignition/voltage regulator, etc.... but it probably won't ever get EFI.

Some cars just need to stay period correct.  

Your engine looks right to me!!!!!  

[JB400]

What does a neglected, 23 year old jeep possibly have to do with modern aftermarket fuel injection for our cars?

Microsoft Windows systems were crashing & frustrating us back in the 1990s.  What does that have to do with the quality of Win8 now?  


We're griping about some flaws that are inherent in computerizing things.


Nobody minds EFI when it's working fine.  The problem is that the failure mode is still just as infuriating today as it was 20-some years ago.  

Almost every other gearhead group embraced EFI decades ago. If Mopar guys continue to sit around bashing any updated tech since 1974, this side of the car hobby will stay pretty stale.

The majority of this thread sounds like "GGRRRR, TECHNOLOGY SCARY, BAD, MAKES....ME... ANGRY....GRRRR".

Outside of the introduction of some reproduction parts, I say it is pretty stale now.  After talking to some venders that deal with the "other" cars, they're under the impression that all Mopar people want their cars stock.  I don't exactly want my car to be "stock", but I don't want the parts on it to make it look stupid either.  What works for a Camaro or Mustang, doesn't always work for a Mopar.  That 68 Charger from the Roadster Shop is a perfect example.  But, not too many designers are Mopar people or think like the original designers of these cars, so we're stuck in a rut at moment, imo.  At least there are some venders that do offer updated parts for us.

[1974dodgecharger]

I started a gofundme for a Efi setup.....4k should cover it.....

[Mike DC]

Outside of the introduction of some reproduction parts, I say it is pretty stale now.  After talking to some venders that deal with the "other" cars, they're under the impression that all Mopar people want their cars stock.  I don't exactly want my car to be "stock", but I don't want the parts on it to make it look stupid either.  What works for a Camaro or Mustang, doesn't always work for a Mopar.  That 68 Charger from the Roadster Shop is a perfect example.  But, not too many designers are Mopar people or think like the original designers of these cars, so we're stuck in a rut at moment, imo.  At least there are some venders that do offer updated parts for us.

If the non-Mopar customized stuff is so much more creative, then why does this single "stock" description sound so familiar?  


RWD 2dr Detroit bodystyle, 1950s-1980s.
body lowered 1-3" and raked 1-2 degrees
chrome bumpers & window trim retained but some minor trim removed
muscle-era (or rooted) V8
Either tremec 5spd kit (manual) or OEM 1980s-1990s 4spd OD (auto)
Ford 9" based aftermarket axle
C5 vette front suspension
Mustang-based steering rack
Painless wiring
Vintage Air AC
Ididit/flaming river GM-based steering column


IMO the average project car in the bigger brands is not more "creative" than Mopars on the whole.  They still mostly prefer a single stock setup too.  But their stock setup just happens to be mostly aftermarket versions of OEM stuff instead of actual OEM stuff.  

 

[Homerr]

One of the reasons I love my car is the 'old tech' that makes it go, although it can be frustrating at times.

It has a couple small mods like electronic ignition/voltage regulator, etc.... but it probably won't ever get EFI.

Some cars just need to stay period correct.   

Your awesome looking engine bay + this for best of both worlds!



Self-tuning:  http://www.fuelairspark.com/fas/efi-systems/ez-efi-2-0-self-tuning-fuel-injection

[JB400]

Outside of the introduction of some reproduction parts, I say it is pretty stale now.  After talking to some venders that deal with the "other" cars, they're under the impression that all Mopar people want their cars stock.  I don't exactly want my car to be "stock", but I don't want the parts on it to make it look stupid either.  What works for a Camaro or Mustang, doesn't always work for a Mopar.  That 68 Charger from the Roadster Shop is a perfect example.  But, not too many designers are Mopar people or think like the original designers of these cars, so we're stuck in a rut at moment, imo.  At least there are some venders that do offer updated parts for us.

If the non-Mopar customized stuff is so much more creative, then why does this single "stock" description sound so familiar? 


RWD 2dr Detroit bodystyle, 1950s-1980s.
body lowered 1-3" and raked 1-2 degrees
chrome bumpers & window trim retained but some minor trim removed
muscle-era (or rooted) V8
Either tremec 5spd kit (manual) or OEM 1980s-1990s 4spd OD (auto)
Ford 9" based aftermarket axle
C5 vette front suspension
Mustang-based steering rack
Painless wiring
Vintage Air AC
Ididit/flaming river GM-based steering column


IMO the average project car in the bigger brands is not more "creative" than Mopars on the whole.  They still mostly prefer a single stock setup too.  But their stock setup just happens to be mostly aftermarket versions of OEM stuff instead of actual OEM stuff. 

 

You just laid out the blue prints for a shoe box Chevy built 20 years ago.  Only reason most of those parts find their way on a muscle car is because this group of people that hopped on the tri five Chevy craze was to stay in business when that fad faded.  I can't remember the last time I seen Project X in Popular Hot Rodding.  Problem with your list is, among the other brands, not very many of those are even used any more, at least among the pro touring crowd, which is probably the largest muscle car group today.  Most of them are using parts that have been developed in the last 10-15 years, whereas in the Mopar hobby, we're still mostly stuck using 40 year old parts.  It hasn't been until the last 4 or 5 years that we managed to get some good suspension parts.  Nothing wrong with using 40 year old parts, but automotive technology has progressed extensively since then.

[JR]

I agree 100% JB400. Very well said.

[Mike DC]

It's the blueprints for a shoebox Chevy built 20 years ago . . . and it's still the blueprints for a '69 Camaro built today.  And a '75 Nova.  Etc.  

I know there is other stuff on the market for GMs too.  But I'm talking about their average car project.  The Mopar world doesn't get bashed so much for never having anything cutting edge in our entire hobby, we get bashed for our average project being so dated.  


I just don't see the big creativity improvement among the GM crowd.  I see higher tech because of the flat-out necessity:  Their factory stuff had less potential for improvement than Mopar's did at the raw design phase.  That, and their cars had removable frames/subframes which took away a lot of the incentive to avoid hacking on them like we have in the Mopar hobby.  There was also GM's huge production numbers ---> more surviving bodies ---> more repro parts earlier and less rusty options to pick from.

It's a lot easier to get tired of a stock setup when you haven't had to work so hard and wait so many years just to get it. 

[Troy]

Just watching one of Eastwood's "Hands-On Cars" videos and there's a segment on a '59 Impala with an Inglese/FAST fuel injected LS 427 that has 625 HP and gets 16 MPG and can run on mid grade gas. (I'm assuming it has an OD transmission.) Even if you could approach that with mileage with carbs, the tuning ability wouldn't be in the same league. Best I got with my 440 Six Pack has been just under 16 mpg - but it was mostly stock, drinking Premium fuel, and running "highway friendly" rear gears (2.76) specifically for that trip. And the carbs got all wacky shortly thereafter and haven't run right since. Not to mention the fuel evaporation problem if the car sits more than a week! I've never come close to that mileage with a 4bbl but have surpassed it with my small block 2bbl that had trouble getting out of its own way. I see fuel injection as a way of having your cake and eating it too. You can get good mileage and run cheap gas OR load up on race gas and spend the day at the track without touching a wrench. Hot starts? Any time. Cold starts? No problem. Ditto with altitude and weather changes. I can't stand having to piddle around under the hood every other time I want to take the car out for a spin. I love factory correct and hot-rodded cars but I have come to the conclusion that I don't want to have to drive one all the time. It's a good thing that I have multiple cars to choose from.

Troy

[69wannabe]

The fast 2.0 efi looks to be a pretty good system, car craft actually done a efi shoot out and I think the fast 2.0 was the best out of three other systems. The pic's of the sequential fuel system look nice and I have read where it all started and honestly I do not have the electronic skills to even begin to start a project like that. If it took you four months to get it on there it would take me four years!!!! I could most likely do a store bought EFI and turn out ok with it. I really didn't have fuel mileage in mind when I was building the car, it's a muscle car and as long as it moves pretty quickly and runs good fuel mileage wasn't something I was looking for. It's a weekend cruiser anyway. Would never use my charger as a daily driver at this point. Even with efi it wouldn't get better than 12mpg anyway I don't think. Was actually venting and very frustrated with a jeep wrangler that I could not get to run, I actually do not feel to bad about it now since it been at the dealer for a week now and it still does not run. That is the first vehicle that has ever left here that I could not figure something out on in over 20 years. I still like my charger with the old double pumper and firecore dizzy on there, drove it sunday before the rain hit and it ran great. I am not a EFI hater but that jeep really pi$$ed me off!!! I have decided that if I decide to have a fuel injected muscle car it will be a newer model challenger R/T!!!!!! 

[bill440rt]

I do not agree with the "stale" comment as far as parts selection goes. There are more aftermarket goodies available for these cars now than ever before: suspension kits, electrical, gauges, interior, sound systems, brakes, etc etc. Modern Hemi and OD trans swaps are now commonplace, with all the harnesses & components readily available to drop them in.
EFI systems in all sorts of configurations are out there from several manufacturers. I personally would have loved to have used the EFI 6-pack setup that's out there, unfortunately it just wasn't in my budget. More than happy with the carbs for now, but... maybe someday...
It seems every week there's something else coming out for these cars. Either aftermarket or reproduction parts. It's a pretty good time to be a Mopar enthusiast, IMHO. 

[BrianShaughnessy]

I'd love to have an injection system on either or both Chargers...  but it's not happening anytime soon.

If I've have never got Sinnamon back then Betty would probably be injected... maybe an injected 6 pack by now....  But I do have Sinnamon and for now that's just getting a holley  800 spreadbore. 

[Cooter]

One has to remember most enthusiasts want everything nowadays in a 'kit' form. (Blister pack hot rodders).
Kudos for doing that set for $2k, but for the average carb guy, intake/carb just to cruise still crushes it in price. Further, I highly doubt anybody's gonna offer that set up for $2k in plug and play kit form.(top intake alone is more than that modded)

Not that enthusiasts can't Ness. Understand F.I., cost is still king. I've worked on f.I. for over 25 years. I understand it fine, enough that in order to keep price in line with carbs, one has to use junkyard set up.

Not an easy sell in 'kit' form. IMO, TB set ups are just for the fact you can call it injected. Sequential PORT injection is "real" fuel injection in my book. It's not limited to intake runner design. Here again, cost goes up enormously because of this...

[six-tee-nine]

Nothing wrong with a carb on a classic for occasional use.
Nothing wrong with fuel injection either.

My Mercedes 280 W108 was fuel injected from the factory over 40 years ago. That is cool imo, even after 4 weeks or more just turn they key, no mess or pumping the pedal, fired right up every single time, steady 900 rpm idle after 10 sec.

I think its alot of money to have a good fuel injection system on say a 440 compared to a carb for how little we use them.
but if you use your car alot and go pro touring with big rims and 6 speed trans and all the other stuff then i say dont leave the fuel injection behind....

[69wannabe]

Nothing wrong with a carb on a classic for occasional use.
Nothing wrong with fuel injection either.

My Mercedes 280 W108 was fuel injected from the factory over 40 years ago. That is cool imo, even after 4 weeks or more just turn they key, no mess or pumping the pedal, fired right up every single time, steady 900 rpm idle after 10 sec.

I think its alot of money to have a good fuel injection system on say a 440 compared to a carb for how little we use them.
but if you use your car alot and go pro touring with big rims and 6 speed trans and all the other stuff then i say dont leave the fuel injection behind....

Well said six-tee-nine!!!

[Rolling_Thunder]

Ummmmm....    500+HP - 23mpg....      Fires up every time, idles in any weather, and looks different

I appreciate carbs and old school technology but in the grand scheme if i'm driving the car a lot you cant beat EFI



As soon as I get back from the sandbox next year I'll be converting from the factory PCM to a MSIII kit to run the hemi - giving better tunability

[Mike DC]

       
                   
In most cases I think EFI's mileage gain is a ridiculous concern for these cars.  EFI won't make them get good mileage, it will only help make it slightly less bad in the big picture.   A lot of times we're talking about saving $50-100 per year with a car that's eaten $40,000 to build. 

 
Daily car?  Project car that sees 10,000 miles a year?  That's another story. 
 




As for the car not starting after a few days with carbs, I've wondered why nobody has come up with a setup to beat that one.  Seems like a method of conveniently plugging the fuel bowls' air holes would solve it. 

[69wannabe]

Well said Mike, I didn't expect any good fuel mileage when I built the 493. Maybe my car is exceptional when it comes to starting it. I can let mine sit for a couple of weeks and it starts up pretty good with the holley on it. I just pump the pedal three times and hit the switch and usually it starts right up. It may flutter and go dead but I just pump the pedal one more time and hit the switch again and it starts up and I usually hold the rpm's around 1500 for a min or so an once it smooths out after a min or so I let it idle til the temp gauge starts moving and i'm good to go after that. I don't have a working choke it is just fixed to be open at all times. It actually starts better than this in the warmer months of the year, usually just pump the pedal twice and it starts up and just after a min or two it's ready to go. The only time I have to start it twice is in the colder months. It was in the low 40's when I started it this morning and it started up good and I only had to start it up once. Warmed it up for a couple of mins and took off down the road.