67 440 or a 74 440.....Which Block to rebuild? Or stick with the numbers 383

[krigel]

I have a line on 2 440 cores. One is a 67 (Block Stamp C440-919), is already .040, and needs a rebuild. The other 440 is a 74 (I think..block stamp is 4T 440 F 3 11). It is a stock bore, and appears to be in good shape. I have the numbers matching 383 in the car, and could keep that, but I want some more power. Question...what does the F in the block stamp mean? Is that a forged crank? Also, I'm torn between keeping the 383 and just putting some good heads and a cam in it, and building a stump pulling 440. The car is driven in the summer a lot. Thoughts?

[c00nhunterjoe]

Im a 383 fan so thats my 1st choice. 2nd would be the stock bore 440.

[krigel]

Is it possible to get a street able 450 horse, 450-500 ft lb out of a 383?

[Kern Dog]

I think that the F is the letter code for the year it was machined.
The engine blocks were not always machined right after they were pulled from the molds. Sometimes a block sat around awhile if the stock was piling up. An engine block could have a 12-12-68 molded in the side yet get machined in January of the next year. It would be possible for it to have a letter code stamped in that raised pad indicating a 1969 build date.
I had a 440 with a 4-4-68 casting date and a 6 21 stamp on the pad. This shows 2 1/2 months from casting to machining.
Some people used to believe that the earlier 440 blocks were better than the 74-78 440s. Even Ma Mopar shot out the myth that the newest blocks were "Thin Wall" blocks that should NOT be bored more than .030. This has been DISproven many, many times. There have been many comparisons where the later blocks have been found to actually be heavier[/i than early 440s. One truth is known for certain. The later 440s are cast with less nickel. This means that the bores can wear slightly faster than the early blocks.
I have a '74 440 block in my Charger. I've had NO problems with bore wear and you probably won't either if you use modern piston rings.
One last thing: More important than the year of the block or the amount that it has been bored is how thick the cylinders are. There is truth to the rumor that some blocks can be bored .060 and run fine while others are limited to .030. Sometimes there are blocks that have 7 thick walls and one thin one. The only actual way to know the safe amount that the engine can be bored over is to get the block sonic checked.

[Kern Dog]

Is it possible to get a street able 450 horse, 450-500 ft lb out of a 383?

Yes. The trade-off though is that to get to that power level with LESS cubic inches, you have to spin the engine MUCH higher. Being 57 inches less and having a shorter stroke, you'd need ported aluminum heads, a big solid lifter cam and 2" headers. Don't forget a loose converter and at least 3.91 gears so you can get the power to the ground.
A bigger inch engine can be milder yet still make the same power. This is part of the appeal of the stroked 400s and 440s. They allow a 4000 lb car to run low 12s while still being comfortable to drive with a relatively smooth idle.

[krigel]

Thanks for the tips. If the 74 440 turns out to have a forged crank, I will probably pick it up.

Cheers,

KR

[ODZKing]

383

[Kern Dog]

Thanks for the tips. If the 74 440 turns out to have a forged crank, I will probably pick it up.

Cheers,

KR

For me, the ONLY advantage to the forged crank is that it allows the use of a standard neutral torque converter. Cast crank engines needed a torque converter with balance weights added to properly balance the engine. Still, The cast cranks were plenty strong up to 450 HP, far more than any factory built 440 ever was. Personally, I've never seen a 440 crank fail of any type. My first 440 was from a 78 Imperial with 78,000 miles. Cast crank. I honed the cylinders and installed new rings on the stock pistons. The '452 heads were milled .050 and rebuilt. I used a Mopar Performance 280/474 cam, a Holley 750 and 1 7/8" headers. That engine idled nice and ran friggin strong. I could spin the tires (Both) to 80 mph from a dead stop or get them spinning from a 30 mph roll. It was a simple build using basic parts that had been done a thousand times before me.

[Challenger340]

Is it possible to get a street able 450 horse, 450-500 ft lb out of a 383?

Yes, it is possible.
Easier for us though, as we've specialized in BB Mopars for over 30 years, so easier to know WHAT to do, as importantly as what NOT to do.
We've done 383's like this right past 500hp on pump gas.... just bigger Cam and 6,000 rpm.


This is a .030" over 383 Engine, completely stock parts used for the rebuild, Cast jobber Pistons, stock Rods, Iron Heads with stock valve sizes.
Done at 5,600 rpm.
430 hp and 444 Ft/Lbs Torque, but with quite a tame Idle... just a mild "one-up" from musclecar exhaust note.

Main things added to the stock "jobber" rebuild parts kit were as follows;
ARP Rod Bolts
274 Comp Hydraulic Flat Tappet Cam
Adjustable Rockers
Torker Intake Manifold W/750 Carb

We Ported the stock Iron Heads, again here W/stock Valve sizes. Nothing real fancy... Bowl Port & Gasket match.

[Challenger340]

Is it possible to get a street able 450 horse, 450-500 ft lb out of a 383?

Yes. The trade-off though is that to get to that power level with LESS cubic inches, you have to spin the engine MUCH higher. Being 57 inches less and having a shorter stroke, you'd need ported aluminum heads, a big solid lifter cam and 2" headers. Don't forget a loose converter and at least 3.91 gears so you can get the power to the ground.
A bigger inch engine can be milder yet still make the same power. This is part of the appeal of the stroked 400s and 440s. They allow a 4000 lb car to run low 12s while still being comfortable to drive with a relatively smooth idle.

please define MUCH Higher as it relates to rpm ? Higher than what ?
See attached Dyno Sheet of the .030" over 383 above.

IMO,
I believe 5,600 rpm is reasonable for a fun, street driven, "pump gas" Iron Headed 383 at 9.5: 1 Compression Ratio, with a small Cam and equally mild Idle quality ?

[John_Kunkel]

4T 440 F 3 11

4=1974
T= Trenton engine plant
440= Displacement
F= ? No such code, could be a lightly stamped E denoting a cast crank or B denoting undersized bearings
3 11= Build date March 11, 1974

I'd keep the numbers matching 383 and build a 440...same cost to build and more power.

[Cooter]

Thanks for the tips. If the 74 440 turns out to have a forged crank, I will probably pick it up.

Cheers,

KR

For me, the ONLY advantage to the forged crank is that it requires you to use a weighted torque converter to achieve proper engine balance. The cast cranks were plenty strong up to 450 HP, far more than any factory built 440 ever was. Personally, I've never seen a 440 crank fail of any type. My first 440 was from a 78 Imperial with 78,000 miles. Cast crank. I honed the cylinders and installed new rings on the stock pistons. The '452 heads were milled .050 and rebuilt. I used a Mopar Performance 280/474 cam, a Holley 750 and 1 7/8" headers. That engine idled nice and ran friggin strong. I could spin the tires (Both) to 80 mph from a dead stop or get them spinning from a 30 mph roll. It was a simple build using basic parts that had been done a thousand times before me.

Actually, the forged crank DOESN'T require a weighted converter, the CAST crank (externally balanced) does.
once one gets past the "HP" limit thinking, there are other advantages to forged steel cranks. Like being able to run a four speed without cobbling a bunch of Dakota parts along with drilling on your flywheel for balance. For some, real street cars have three pedals.

Also, if blowing the tires away is your thing, by all means. However, it is not uncommon to see 600 plus HP 440 inch motors today.

Given the choice, go with the bigger engine [440].

[BSB67]

I would take a 440.

If you are planning to use the crank and rods, I would take the one with a forged crank and with LY rods.  If they are both that variety it is a crap shoot without more specifics.  Depending on your plan and budget, things like balanced, oil pan, pick-up, water pump housing,  brackets....that might come along might matter.

[Dino]

Save and store the numbers matching block and go nuts with the 440.

[69rtse4spd]

Does the 67 block have the side stiffening ribs cast into it, also .040 over will it only take .020 to clean up. If not then custom pistons are $. If you can get the 67 block for decent money ( point those out to the seller) then buy it, if the crank is good. Then buy the 74 block & use the 67 crank for your build. Could  see what it cost to drill the cranks out for a four speed as well.   

[krigel]

Thanks for the input. I love the dyno numbers on that 383!

I had the same thought about the two blocks and the 67 crank. He'll sell me both blocks with rods, cranks, and pistons (no heads) for $500.00 CDN. Worth it?

[Kern Dog]

For me, the ONLY advantage to the forged crank is that it requires you to use a weighted torque converter to achieve proper engine balance.

Actually, the forged crank DOESN'T require a weighted converter, the CAST crank (externally balanced) does.

Nice catch. I was thinking the right thing but typed it wrong.
I made the correction to my earlier post.

[Challenger340]

Thanks for the input. I love the dyno numbers on that 383!

I had the same thought about the two blocks and the 67 crank. He'll sell me both blocks with rods, cranks, and pistons (no heads) for $500.00 CDN. Worth it?

I only posted the 383 Dyno Sheet as an example of what "can be done" relative to rpm..... NOT what you should do ?

If you have a choice between a 383 or 440 at the start of your build.... ALWAYS go for the larger 440 Engine as it is just a no brainer.
IMO,
if the 383 is original to the car, Crate it up and put it away for posterity.

I can't comment on the parts pricing without looking/measuring stuff up.
But 2 "standard" un-bored, un-fawked up Blocks with main caps, and a 1967 std/std Forged 440 Crank does seem like a good deal to me for $500.

If the Blocks have already been "worked" before in their History ?
Good idea to sonic test the cylinder walls before proceeding or Boring any further, just to verify wall integrity.
If the Forged Crank has been re-ground before in it's life.... start having a real close look at that also. You don't want already .020"/.030" undersize cranks that now have to go to .030"/.040" etc.

I'll direct you over here for some ideas relative to pump gas 440 builds.....
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,106687.0.html

You can do whatever you want, spend money until the cows come home..... but in my opinion only.... these are about as tried, tested, and true combinations as you will find out there.... GREAT power vrs Money spent..... Keep It Simple Stupid or "KISS" method 440 builds.